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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » does PvP have to equal Everything can beat everything?

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55 posts found
  jacklo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 582

6/06/11 3:19:31 PM#41

I don't agree with the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' crap. I believe that's an excuse for poor 'balance' in a game.

I also think 100% balance is impossible in this genre or any other for that matter.

Let's face it, some people have better reactions, better tactics, better gear maybe, whatever.

What is important is that everyone has a 'fair chance' against another player or class.

It shouldn't matter whether you're wearing cloth, leather, plate - or if you're ranged, melee or aoe.

In a 1 vs 1 situation, each class should have the skills/tools/tactics to put up a good fight against any other class.

True balance has never really bothered me too much. I like a challenge and feel a higher sense of reward knowing I was (probably) the underdog.

What really bothers me is knowing I have absolutely no chance of winning against a certain class, nor even a chance of escaping should I need to.

The main thing that kills PvP for me is the ridiculous burst damage that can kill you in seconds, before you even have a chance to think of tactics or even withdrawal.

'One shotting' is just terribly poor game design in my opinion and there is no excuse for it.

Any fight should have options - and options can only be made if the fight is able to last beyond the blink of an eye.

We're playing MMO's here, not FPS games. Get rid of the 'HEADSHOT' mentality and give people time to think and react accordingly!

 

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/07/11 6:02:12 AM#42
Originally posted by jacklo

I don't agree with the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' crap. I believe that's an excuse for poor 'balance' in a game.

I also think 100% balance is impossible in this genre or any other for that matter.

Let's face it, some people have better reactions, better tactics, better gear maybe, whatever.

What is important is that everyone has a 'fair chance' against another player or class.

It shouldn't matter whether you're wearing cloth, leather, plate - or if you're ranged, melee or aoe.

In a 1 vs 1 situation, each class should have the skills/tools/tactics to put up a good fight against any other class.

True balance has never really bothered me too much. I like a challenge and feel a higher sense of reward knowing I was (probably) the underdog.

What really bothers me is knowing I have absolutely no chance of winning against a certain class, nor even a chance of escaping should I need to.

The main thing that kills PvP for me is the ridiculous burst damage that can kill you in seconds, before you even have a chance to think of tactics or even withdrawal.

'One shotting' is just terribly poor game design in my opinion and there is no excuse for it.

Any fight should have options - and options can only be made if the fight is able to last beyond the blink of an eye.

We're playing MMO's here, not FPS games. Get rid of the 'HEADSHOT' mentality and give people time to think and react accordingly!

 

fair chance against everyone else? So lets just make an MMO with one class and only one way to spec him.

The frontload damage has gotten way out of hand in PvP mmos. And i would say it is a major reason why many MMOs fail in the end game. But a lot of that hangs on the insanity that is the gear. 

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 532

6/07/11 6:13:42 AM#43

You're all talking like its a single player game. I hope I dont end up in a pug with you guys.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

6/07/11 6:38:16 AM#44

If the pvp is based around 1v1 then all classes should have a chance...if the pvp is based around group vs group then Rock, paper, scissors.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16466

6/07/11 6:38:36 AM#45
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

PvP should equal that the best player win.

If a class always will lose against another that means that the game is poorly balanced 1 Vs 1. MMOs are of course also about groups versus groups and the group that co operates and play best should of course win, but that really is no excuse for having some classes severly underpowered.

Cloth healers is a typical MMO thing. D&D and most of the other games have healers in heavy armor that actually can both take and give some damage.

In fact in my regular D&D (3rd ed) group we have a cleric as main tank while my bard is the main healer and secondary tank. It is actually a lot better balanced than the average MMO,  

If gear, levels, imbalance or other mechanics makes the lousiest players win more than once in a while (everyone can get lucky) the game isn't as good as it should be. And don't give me the old "it is roleplaying, my characters skills is what matters" speach.

This is the reason that PvP is 10 times as popular as PvE in FPS gaming but MMOs are the other way around.

I do not advocate FPS styled combat, MMOs is and should be slower but strategy, wits and competence should win the day, not the class you play or the fact that you farmed gear for 2 years.

  Majinash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 1343

6/07/11 6:39:39 AM#46
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

Ships aren't classes in EVE.  For all you know the player in the logistics ship could hop into a titan the next time you see them.

 

If you enjoy playing games where your actions after the creation screen have no effect on your chances at victory, there are plenty of MMOs like that.  If you prefer a game where the choices you are making right now have a greater effect the outcome of a fight than the choice you made 6 months ago they have those for you as well.  However your assumption of which side of the road EVE is on is wrong.

Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/07/11 6:59:23 AM#47
Originally posted by Majinash
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

Ships aren't classes in EVE.  For all you know the player in the logistics ship could hop into a titan the next time you see them.

 

If you enjoy playing games where your actions after the creation screen have no effect on your chances at victory, there are plenty of MMOs like that.  If you prefer a game where the choices you are making right now have a greater effect the outcome of a fight than the choice you made 6 months ago they have those for you as well.  However your assumption of which side of the road EVE is on is wrong.

Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship. 

you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else. 

Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. . 

And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick. 

 

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/07/11 6:59:57 AM#48

double post

  Majinash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 1343

6/07/11 7:14:52 AM#49
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship. 

you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else. 

Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. . 

And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick. 

 

Semantics don't make an argument.  There are classes of ships... which only matter so far as you need specifics skills to use them.  Ships are not classes, ships are equipment.

 

You seem incredibly unwelcoming of any real logic into your thread.  You compare classes in WoW (I make this wild assumption because you mention cloth healer, chain DPS, and "WoW" in your post) and leave out the inverse of Chain healer and Cloth DPS?

In MMOs a class is normally chosen at creation, unable to be changed later on.  To decide that chain beats cloth means that every choice after that first choice at creation is null, pointless and thus unexciting.  In EVE you do not choose Battlecruiser when you create your account and are thus bound to that class of ship.  How you can compare EVE ship choice which is closer to a choice of armor or weapon in a fantasy MMO (which you need specific skills to use a "class" of weapon in, just as you need skills to use a "class" of ship) to a WoW Class which is completely unchangeable after being decided upon is silly.

 

I didn't miss your point, your point was flawed.  If you want a game where "balance" doesn't mean everyone has a fair shot, go play Lineage2.  EVE is not the game you seem to think it is, as any player has the chance to beat any other player given similar access to the 2 main currencies, Skill points and ISK.  that flows EXACTLY the same as the (attempt) WoW has made to balance WoW so that any class can beat any other class given similar access to the 1 main currency, Gear.

 

Go look up videos of mining barges killing ore thiefs and frigs taking down battleships, EVE is one of the most balanced games around, far more so than WoW.

Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/07/11 7:43:59 AM#50
Originally posted by Majinash
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Ships are not classes. But there are classes of ship. 

you missed the point entirely and decided to read it as something else. 

Someone in a Basilisk fully fitted for shield/armor rep, is not going to pick a fight with a harbinger. . 

And who the hell cares if the logi pilot can fly a titan. He isnt in the titan right now, so those titan skills mean dick. 

 

Semantics don't make an argument.  There are classes of ships... which only matter so far as you need specifics skills to use them.  Ships are not classes, ships are equipment.

 

You seem incredibly unwelcoming of any real logic into your thread.  You compare classes in WoW (I make this wild assumption because you mention cloth healer, chain DPS, and "WoW" in your post) and leave out the inverse of Chain healer and Cloth DPS?

In MMOs a class is normally chosen at creation, unable to be changed later on.  To decide that chain beats cloth means that every choice after that first choice at creation is null, pointless and thus unexciting.  In EVE you do not choose Battlecruiser when you create your account and are thus bound to that class of ship.  How you can compare EVE ship choice which is closer to a choice of armor or weapon in a fantasy MMO (which you need specific skills to use a "class" of weapon in, just as you need skills to use a "class" of ship) to a WoW Class which is completely unchangeable after being decided upon is silly.

 

I didn't miss your point, your point was flawed.  If you want a game where "balance" doesn't mean everyone has a fair shot, go play Lineage2.  EVE is not the game you seem to think it is, as any player has the chance to beat any other player given similar access to the 2 main currencies, Skill points and ISK.  that flows EXACTLY the same as the (attempt) WoW has made to balance WoW so that any class can beat any other class given similar access to the 1 main currency, Gear.

 

Go look up videos of mining barges killing ore thiefs and frigs taking down battleships, EVE is one of the most balanced games around, far more so than WoW.

You cannot change your class once you hit play in an MMO. But you could look at the time in the hangar as your "character creator" Since once you undock, you cannot change your fitting and i have yet to see someoen eject mid-fight, and try to enter into an empty ship. 

And i can take battleships down all day too with a gang of frigs and a BS fit meant for rats. 

This argument is going nowhere, but i am more than happy to put on the troll face and continue. 

  Majinash

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 1343

6/07/11 8:36:00 AM#51
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

 But you could look at the time in the hangar as your "character creator"

You could, but most wouldn't.  once you undock you're stuck with that "build" for 10min, a few hours.  You are comparing that to a choice that will last your entire play time in an MMO, possibly years.

 

I mean, maybe you are serious.  But saying that the few hours you spend with a specific ship equipped is the same as the years you spend as your chosen class sure sounds like trolling.

Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2681

6/08/11 12:09:27 AM#52

Stop arguing this way please.

We both know that if youre on a Logistics ship you are a healer as long as youre on a logistic.  Fact of the matter is you cant just click bam switch ships unless you have a carrier there with a fully fitted battleship.  Thats "the next time" you see him that hes in a titan.  So what?  Fact is youre fighting him now and there you blow up his ship, it will take a WHILE for him to come back with something completely different.  Blob warfare? lag will prevent you from going back quickly.  Roaming?  You have no idea how far the ships are.  Oh wait you do! If youre roaming that means you most likely know where stuff are and how far their base or temporary base is.  They have a carrier?  Well youll know where it is most definitely.

 

Now years?  Let me tell you right now being properly fitted for a TITAN of all things?  Doesnt that take 2 years to be able to fly?  And  you know...A giant fleet with you?

You could get to max level in a bunch of games in about a month.  What can you do in a month in eve?  Be barely able to fly a battleship, be able to fy a cruiser at least slightly properly with t1 gear.  Doesnt matter. Same thing

A Logistic is a healer.  You see a paladin healing in the back you treat him like a healer wit ha bubble shield.  You see a logistic ship in EVE its a healer.  Blow it up.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to train for logistics and get the skills to be able to use it?  Longer than how long it takes to get to WoW or Rift or Champions Online or Allods max level.

Actually this is like Rift.  In Rift iirc some builds can switch to be tank build, healer build, dps build.  You see a whatchamacallit in healing mode, you treat it like a healer.  after killing him once, he switches t odps mode and kills you.  Whats the difference?  Fact is while he is in healing mode, you own him.  In dps mode, he can kill you and you might be able to kill him. 

 

Whats the difference between that and eve? 

 

Imo, pvp doesnt have to be  everything can beat everything.  but the roles you take on the fight can change what you can beat.  Look at global agenda.  As a pure healer/pure support, I get owned by stuff.  Then next fight, I switch to my poison build and I can kill robotics and those cloaker types.  Same with eve.  Im a logistics, I get owned without people supporting and killing for me.  I switch to a battleship, Ill be able to kill.  Or I could be a repper Dominix and kill WHILE  repairing o.o

This also goes with FPS games.  You could be a sniper, taking out medium and short range people.  Or you can be medium ranged and take down  other medium and short ranged people.  Some lets you use all your weapons and some limit you.  The ones that let you use all your weapons will be an everything beats everything.  But games like counter strike where you have a specific number of weapons you can carry means that you will have to stick to a role.  o.o

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  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3319

6/08/11 12:14:18 AM#53

PvP doesn't have to be "all things equal" - those that want to win will gravitate to the classes/abilities/setups that are more powerful, and those that just want to play the game will just die a lot more.

Happens all the time in Warcraft, just the Dev's there keep changing up which classes/abilities/specs are the flavor of the month, and giggle while the players take a few weeks to figure it back out again.

Personally, I think PvP is overrated, and I don't see why it gets the emphasis that it does. It makes a lot of sense in games like Eve, where every player has access to every ability/spec/class: they just have to choose to take it. Games like TF2 and Planetside, it makes sense, because even though different classes/types have access to different abilities, they were designed from the ground up to be PvP oriented, and nothing else. It doesn't make sense in games like WoW, where the classes are designed to fill niche abilities in PvE encounters, and then you try to shoehorn a glorified /duel command into a big points system and staged arena encounters.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/08/11 2:08:21 PM#54
Originally posted by Castillle

Whats the difference between that and eve? 

The difference is whether or not you can make decisions mid-battle to adapt or not.

In EVE maybe if you have years and years of progression you have the freedom to make those switches and fly back to the battle.  Maybe.  But like you said, it takes years to even get to that point (which is an EVE shortcoming for another discussion.)

Whereas in stronger PVP games like TF2, death is pretty cheap and gives you a chance to switch roles freely and immediately (and regardless of progression.)  Same with RIFT, I assume (been playing RIFT since launch but never touched PVP so far.)

And again, this all echoes the core question of whether you want PVP in your game to be a contest of skill, or a contest of "who's played longer and brought more friends?"  For me, the latter question is a completely silly way to decide PVP victory.

  FastTx

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/05
Posts: 754

6/09/11 12:51:28 AM#55

MMORPG's are supposed to be massively multiplayer games. The PvP balance should be focused around the massive PvP. This turns into classes suitable for AoE farming are usually underpowered in small scale PvP. I will use Lineage 2 references since it is a game that did massive PvP well and perhaps the best to date as there are countless freeshards for the game as the only real deterent to the game was the long grind and it seems these free private servers fixed that. I played and enjoyed this game to the fullest up until Interlude and was deterred by the "new" Kamael race which didn't look like they fitted with the game, with their Aioneque look, wings and their ability to only wear light armor while all other races were free to use whatever armor they wished and their unique weapons which were transformed from the normal race weapons, such as Sword > Rapier and Bow > Crossbow. I just don't get these changes, anyway let me get back on topic.

Both sides in massive pvp have the same classes to choose from, part of the balance is each side has a fair advantage of leveling up and filling all their roles. They level up and recruit the correct support roles, the best damage roles and organize raids to fund gear for the characters who need it. In L2 this was perfect, everyone could choose whichever side and switch at will. Every side had the opportunity to level up and recruit the same pool of classes. Each side could siege or war any clan or castle they chose on weekends. 

These wars, there was no benefit to them other than to deprive them of experience, leveling zones and epic bosses. This was enough and wars happened, people didn't need honor points, you killed your enemy, you didn't exploit any systems as there was nothing to exploit. Sure you gained a clan point when you killed an enemy but the real way to farm clan reputation was through quests, castles and leveling new characters to 40.

It was perfect, but here is where the tricky part begins, because a game must balance it's classes so all get playtime. For example I was a plainswalker, essentially an Elven Rogue/thief class and I used a dagger and stabbed people in their back. Well In Chronicle 1 and 2 this was a strong class and I was a very important damage dealing class, I was one of the top PvP dps's on the server and even ran my own clan and alliance of 200+ people. Essentially all dagger classes were overpowered at this point because we were balanced by our chance to miss or hit our skills, and this patch gave us the opportunity to stack success rate as well as increase the power of our skills and they ignored Physical defense. So while other classes had hard time with tanks, my class could at the most use 3 skills to drop tanks and even 1 shot mages. This isn't even the best part, we were gods in small scale PvP but in large scale PvP it was fairly balanced. Ranged DpS was still more powerful, they had better mana management, as a dagger class I could drop a few people then I'd have to wait 5-10 minutes for mana while archers could continue shooting players with lethal damage consistantly forever and mages were slightly worse but had AoE control such as Sleeping Cloud. Other melee DPS were just god awful. 

So in every patch until probably recently, archers were the most dominant and supreme PvP character in the game. They weren't very good in self buffed small scale PvP and usually in the bottom of the chain there, but everyone played them because they were key in PvP. Not only that but every group had roles, as every group that wanted to stand a chance had to have a Bladedancer and Swordsinger, they all needed a buffer such as a Warcryer or Prophet and a healer or two. However there were usually a few options for these roles, such as 3 pure healer roles in Bishop, Elven Elder and Shilien Elder. Every party had a Bishop for healing and an Elven Elder for replenishing mana because thats what they were best at. Sadly, Shilien Elder was best for 2boxing.

Games are going WOW style now though. However WoW isn't even an MMORPG game, it has the world for it but all the content is instanced off, why? It allows the game to be essentially a minigame amusement park. Allows them to choose the attraction, no immersement at all. I can stand in town and select which game I want to play? Kill the boss raiding or play with a team of randoms in battlegrounds matchmaking. It seems like WOW is just "Choose your game: DOTA or Diablo". So games now want to get rid of the pure healing class, well that won't work for massive pvp. Roles are important, specializing is important and people feel more important when they know their role is crucial to the success of the massive PvP. Being the guy to take down the opponents clan leader in a 100 vs 100 PvP fight is just as rewarding as being the healer that keeps their party healed up through an immense battle and also throwing heals at people with seemingly 1 hp. I've seen clutch videos where people have been saved this way and it's awesome.

 

Now if we could only have a massive PvP game that removed most of the repetitve grind that L2 and Darkfall have. Something with roles and clan warfare over territories and less of this faction pvp crap.

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