Trending Games | ArcheAge | World of Warcraft | Destiny | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,856,683 Users Online:0
Games:740  Posts:6,241,426
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » does PvP have to equal Everything can beat everything?

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
55 posts found
  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

6/02/11 11:05:05 PM#21

For a while, at least, WoW tried to claim the anti-class system. Every class had an anti-class but in one very famous example, Blizzard made a small nerf to warriors that turned Warrior >= Mage to Mage >>> Warrior. Frost mages are, arguabilly for the lack of skill needed to do it dcently, the best kiters in that game. Mage is Blizzard's PVP baby though.

(I can't help that that sounds like QQ, but it isn't. the only PVP I did was on a priest so mages weren't my concern, it was those damn plate dps).

I do realize that PVE is easier than PVP (scripted encounters), but I'd truly appreciate a game another PVE-focused game. Glaring OP-ness should always be fixed but I think a game that let PVE abilities be PVE abilitied would be very welcome. Sooo welcome. Maybe we might see some great new encounters and abilities if it didn't matter how well another class could counter the abilities used to counter a boss.

WoW loves to nerf tanks for pvp balance when tanks, largely, don't PVP. Now my abilitie to take hits for 75% of my health is nerfed because I would never take my tank into an arena? Yeah.. no thanks.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  Bazharkhan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 30

6/03/11 2:01:45 AM#22

The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no.

Don't balance abilities, balance play-time, effort and input.  I have no problems with a mage-type destroying a warrior-type, or vice versa.  Make it fit your game mechanics/lore/feel, and stick with it.  General happiness ensues (although we are talking MMOs, so low-intensity forum grumbling, which is the closest thing to happiness, ensues).

If you don't want everyone playing the over-powered class (be it PvP overpowering or PvE, it doesn't matter), the dev's need to get off their lazy dev-butts and think about it for a change.  T-h-o-u-g-h-t has most of the same letters in it as doughnut, so it shouldn't be a stretch for most of them.  One of the main reasons for class balance/imbalance hate is the lack of forethought, playtesting and early-stage tweaking. 

WoW had the annoying habit of nerfing the OP class of the week, making it the crappy class for that next month.  Then, they'd reverse it, forgetting to reset all of the other classes that got buffed in response to the original class's supposed OP-ness.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Most games do, as I feel no particular desire to pick on or single out WoW in this. 

On a final note, a very large number (I am going to be a percentard and say 65.381%) of class balance issues that make it to forums boil down to the personal preference, minority-complaints and 'grass-is-greener' mentality of their players.

 

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3171

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/03/11 4:36:35 AM#23

If you take TF2 as an example then some classes have "more issues" with other classes and find again others a little easier. So a 1v1 is a case by case with mild bias depending on what context the face off occurs?

Taking the OP eg Mage vs Warrior

If the warrior is close to the mage the mage should switch to defense or blocking the warrior and running to a more advantageous situation eg team-mates. Conversely if the mage is up on a high ledge and raining fire down on the warrior they should get their shield/defense up and run for cover or close the distance. Basically they should have options that correspond to finding a solution to the problem they face and that's a different problem depending on different conditions/situations. If you play a weaker armor ranger you know you have to get some cheap hits on the warrior first to take them down otherwise use the "run-away" skill !

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/03/11 1:27:20 PM#24
Originally posted by Bazharkhan

The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no. 

You're wrong in two ways.

1. You cite non-interactive media.  When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter.  When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.

2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/03/11 1:55:13 PM#25
Originally posted by MumboJumbo

If you take TF2 as an example then some classes have "more issues" with other classes and find again others a little easier. So a 1v1 is a case by case with mild bias depending on what context the face off occurs?

Taking the OP eg Mage vs Warrior

If the warrior is close to the mage the mage should switch to defense or blocking the warrior and running to a more advantageous situation eg team-mates. Conversely if the mage is up on a high ledge and raining fire down on the warrior they should get their shield/defense up and run for cover or close the distance. Basically they should have options that correspond to finding a solution to the problem they face and that's a different problem depending on different conditions/situations. If you play a weaker armor ranger you know you have to get some cheap hits on the warrior first to take them down otherwise use the "run-away" skill !

That's definitely the ideal way for class balance to be implemented, where each class has options for adapting to the others.

Which is important because the distinction between TF2 and MMORPG classes is that TF2 classes can be changed every death (turning class choice into a mid-match skillful decision to be made) whereas MMORPG classes are set in stone at character creation.

  zephermarkus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/09
Posts: 226

6/03/11 2:09:50 PM#26
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

Developers should out right refuse to do this look what it did to wow the game hasnt been good since patch 1.12.

It's this kinda of mentality by the above poster that has ruined pvp games just because u pick a class and pay for a game doesnt mean the developer has to make your class beat everything because u decide u dont want to group up which defeats the purpose of u playing a mmorpg.

No not every class should be able to kill every class that is  so stupid and the reason i quit wow after bc came out. Dark age of camelot had balance perferct until the solo/casual players starting comin and don't know what teamwork is. A mage should be able to kill a heavy armored person without them being able to catch them that is the the point because your heavy armor is for taking the arrows and the melee and your rogues are for killing the mages and your rangers are for killing rogues and healers. Pvp should be paper rock scissors and never paper can kill rock and all the others because your to lazy to make a friend or be social which is the whole point of an mmo. Most of the people that complain about imbalance are the peole that solo and the mmorpg means massive not smorpg.

  treelo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/09
Posts: 70

6/03/11 6:33:12 PM#27

Balance can only take you so far.  When it stops making sense within the context of your created world you've made a fatal error.  I fail to see why tried and tested mechanics in a PvE environment should automatically be thrown out the window whenever you step into a PvP battleground.  In a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, why try and stop it?  All you achieve in accomplishing is annoying the community as a whole, setting yourself upon the greasy pole of continuous balance patches, and simultaneously removing any chance of people working together in team-based games.

What you should really be focusing on is rewarding people for performing their role in a PvP encounter.  I don't think I have yet seen a game that properly accounts for the actions of dedicated healers in PvP.  Instead they charge around blindly, trying in vain to find an easy target they can outlive in an often mindnumbing battle of attrition.  Tanks rarely find themselves in a position to make the most of their abilities as taunts and the like have zero effect on players.  Only DPS remain able to shine as doing damage is apparently the only thing that matters.

Return to your tried, tested, and hopefully well balanced PvE mechanics and apply them to PvP.  Operating as a group becomes tantamount to success and rids you of the annoying sods soloing in a corner somewhere or ganking weaker players relentlessly.  Reward tanks for taking damage and healers for healing it.  Your only issue with balance should be ensuring that people are rewarded properly for their contribution to the battle as a whole not how well they can solo.

If you really wanted to balance PvP in the way most companies try you'd simply create a single default class that everyone is forced to play whenever they step into the ring.

  Bazharkhan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 30

6/04/11 2:14:20 PM#28
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bazharkhan

The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no. 

You're wrong in two ways.

1. You cite non-interactive media.  When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter.  When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.

2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".

Virtually all of the characters I cited were called 'metaphors'.

And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS.   

Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it?  Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/04/11 4:01:19 PM#29
Originally posted by Bazharkhan
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bazharkhan

The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no. 

You're wrong in two ways.

1. You cite non-interactive media.  When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter.  When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.

2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".

Virtually all of the characters I cited were called 'metaphors'. http://dictionary.reference.com/

And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS.  Come on back :)

 

Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it?  Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.

You understand the purpose of these characters as metaphors, but don't understand how that's an entirely separate concept from balance in interactive games.  Odd.

If government said "There's going to be crime, so why try and stop it" would be we better off, or worse?   ...the same is true of game balance.  Without it, player decisions become totally irrelevant, variety ceases to exist, and games become boring/terrible.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19079

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/04/11 4:08:02 PM#30
Originally posted by dreamer05

I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp.  Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game.  I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard.  It was a really fun mix. 

 

I do believe however that Rift has done many things right.  It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.

 

I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC.  I would never look at another game.

I think many of us share your sentiment.  They really did nail the 'balance' of the game, by never really being balanced individually, but only through your group and it's dynamics.

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Anolev

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 269

6/04/11 4:12:38 PM#31

In a word... no...  Rock, paper, scissors is a perfectly acceptable game mechanic in PvP.  It levels the playing field to some degree, and that makes PvP more fun... even "dominant" players need to constantly be looking over their shoulder with a hint of worry... :)

  Bazharkhan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 30

6/04/11 4:44:50 PM#32
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bazharkhan
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Bazharkhan

The idea of class balance owes its prickliness (yay imaginary vocabulary/spelling) to the baby-daddy of all RPGs, table-top war gaming.  When Gygax and Co. started out, their onus was on the effect that any class would have on a game that lives and breathes utter balance ad nauseum.  For me, RPGs do not have to reflect balance as a mirror-effect... i.e. every class does not and should not need to be utterly equal to the others.  Can anyone argue that Gandalf's class was balanced?  That Emperor Palpatine's was balanced? Was Drizzt *apologies*, Fafhrd, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, Hercules, The Dad from Good Times, Mike Tyson, Meatloaf or the Cylons balanced? 

The answer to all of the above (particularly the Dad from Good Times), is no. 

You're wrong in two ways.

1. You cite non-interactive media.  When viewers don't interact, balance doesn't matter.  When interaction exists, it should matter -- without balance, it won't matter.

2. Virtually all the characters you cited were defeated, and therefore balanced against the skill/capabilities of the "good guys".

Virtually all of the characters I cited were called 'metaphors'. http://dictionary.reference.com/

And of all of the characters I cited (with the exception of the Dad from Good Times, damn damn damn) were defeated by their OWN CLASS.  Come on back :)

 

Oh; and I completely agree with Treelo when he said that in a class-based system it is inevitable that certain classes will perform better against others, so why try and stop it?  Encourage it and you might actually find more willingness to partake in ORGANIZED PvP.

You understand the purpose of these characters as metaphors, but don't understand how that's an entirely separate concept from balance in interactive games.  Odd.

If government said "There's going to be crime, so why try and stop it" would be we better off, or worse?   ...the same is true of game balance.  Without it, player decisions become totally irrelevant, variety ceases to exist, and games become boring/terrible.

That's going a long way there, cowboy.  My point is that there's not much use behind class differences at all in PVP if every class has all of the exact same strengths and weaknesses as every other class.  Give me paper rock, scissors over that anyday, please.  I don't care if warriors beat mages in one-on-ones most of the time or if its the other way around.  Learn to accept that things don't have to be 'fair' by your definition in order to be interesting or challenging.

Mirror-image equality destroys fun.  Let classes overlap a little, sure - but don't make them clones.  That's all I am attempting to explain here.  One last thing axe, my point is not wrong.  No one's points on these forums are wrong.  They are 'opinions'.  http://dictionary.reference.com

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/04/11 7:24:35 PM#33
Originally posted by Bazharkhan

That's going a long way there, cowboy.  My point is that there's not much use behind class differences at all in PVP if every class has all of the exact same strengths and weaknesses as every other class.  Give me paper rock, scissors over that anyday, please.  I don't care if warriors beat mages in one-on-ones most of the time or if its the other way around.  Learn to accept that things don't have to be 'fair' by your definition in order to be interesting or challenging.

Mirror-image equality destroys fun.  Let classes overlap a little, sure - but don't make them clones.  That's all I am attempting to explain here.  One last thing axe, my point is not wrong.  No one's points on these forums are wrong.  They are 'opinions'.  http://dictionary.reference.com

Balance doesn't mean that every class has the same strengths and weaknesses.  Why would you assume that?  Playstyles were completely different in Starcraft, and yet you had balance.  The same is true of any well-made game.

Just take a second to catch up on current definitions before you continue posting in a thread about game balance.  The article should seem pretty obvious to anyone who's put any amount of thought into how balance relates to games.

At the very least, use your own advice and look up http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance

Balance does not make two things identical.  Stand on a scale balanced against some stone weights.  Are you a stone weight?  Of course not.  But you're balanced.  This is exactly how game balance works: it's a measure of one specific variable (power), not an indication that two classes are identical.

  Bazharkhan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/10
Posts: 30

6/04/11 7:49:58 PM#34
Originally posted by dreamer05

I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp.  Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game.  I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard.  It was a really fun mix. 

 

I do believe however that Rift has done many things right.  It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.

 

I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC.  I would never look at another game.

 Agree 100%.

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/05/11 4:15:54 AM#35
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by dreamer05

I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp.  Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game.  I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard.  It was a really fun mix. 

 

I do believe however that Rift has done many things right.  It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.

 

I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC.  I would never look at another game.

I think many of us share your sentiment.  They really did nail the 'balance' of the game, by never really being balanced individually, but only through your group and it's dynamics.

The issue of balance only came up once 8v8 became the norm and raids took a back seat. RPs trumped defending your realm.

Now i will say that AOE stun + PBAOE was vastly overpowered. (stunning 20 people who for 8 seconds, cant do anything, not even remove it), but the CC was a bit out of control in that game anyway. 

  Ezhae

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

6/05/11 4:31:53 AM#36

Depends on what type of PvPv we speak. If it's competetive, e sport type PvP then yes, every class/character choice should be viable, it can be weaker or stronger against certain types, but overall, a skilled person should be able to do their magick, here it should be strategy, reaction time and tactic that play a role, not class.  

 

Now for casual pvp that should be core of most MMORPGs i think it would be better if it was more of "Everything can beat at least something, preferably equal number of things", since you want to mainly balance around group combat and that way no class/character would be obsolate and none would be I-WIN. 

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6508

"I fight so you don't have to."

6/05/11 4:37:28 AM#37

Player skills should be the deciding factor in PvP, not gear, class, level etc.

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1907

6/05/11 4:50:07 AM#38

First, I'm no fan of PvP in MMORPG. I think it's basically like other PvP games, except that it requires you to level up a char and grind gear for days or weeks, and then the one who spent most time grinding or most money at the cash shop wins.

 

That beeing said: I think that you have to differ between MMORPGs that are unbalanced in so far that one or two classes or combos dominate the entire PvP game. Like, that a player completly new to the game can play one class and easily take apart far more skilled players of another class. Regularily, maybe several of them at once. If that's the case: yep, the it's unbalanced. But most often this ain't the case. People just assume it is. They get killed by someone, and assume they made no mistake while their opponent did, and that they should win and the game is all unbalanced etcetcetc.

Most of the time, it's just the normal tiny unbalancing. I mean, PvP games can't ever be 100% balanced. Starting with the fact that the person with a sucky computer has less of a chance than the one with a good computer. Now add internet connection, age, reactions, the amount of distraction while playing (ie by a nearby barking dog) and whatever. And the game itself can't be balanced either. There are too many variables and combos having an effect on each other, that it's impossible to keep everything in check. Add to that that healthy MMORPGs receive patches regularily which keep shifting the balance back and forth, and you got to admit that balance doesn't exist. Sometimes a patch makes your class stronger, sometimes a patch makes your class weaker. To become truly good: learn to perform well no matter what.

The right attitude to play MMORPG PvP is, in my opinion: I play my class, I do my best, I constantly learn about my own class and others. And if I play it well, then no matter the balancing, I will perform well too.

Most players seem to have the attitude: I'm the most awesome player, and if anyone kills me for any reason, then that person is a cheater and the game is unbalanced.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  Shoko_Lied

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2110

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

6/05/11 4:57:03 AM#39

It depends. I don't expect all games to allow each roll to be able to beat every other role. Having a decent sized disadvantage can really make an emphasis and appretiation for more support oriented gameplay.

In mmorpg's, if you are playing in an open world and are forced into 1v1, it's not that fun to know that no matter what you do, you WILL not beat the other player.

Even if you are at a disadvantage, it would be great for a player who really knows the class to be able to perhaps use world conditions in order to gain an advantage. This is why I love realistic terrain benefits, such as some players doing better in narrow spaces like ship passages, or steep slopes.

Others others will enjoy the freedoms of being able to take use of quick exits such as in mazes of sorts. Another play may benefit from being in a very open environment.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3191

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

6/06/11 2:03:55 PM#40


Originally posted by Swollen_Beef
Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?
Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?
in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 
But in WoW.....


To me, the problem is everyone has a "role". When PvP enters the picture, those roles become blatantly obvious. A support role character should never stand toe to toe with a dps role. What should be happening is that the healer cannot die due to their healing ability and the tank should take damage forever. Eventually, the dps falls over from exhaustion. PvP takes away these roles and tries to make all equal. That's when the crying starts.

I am a PvE'er and have to say that PvP has killed more mmo's for me than any other factor. PvP is the reason "nerfs" exist as games try to "balance out" the classes/roles. It has always been my opinion that PvE and PvP should NEVER mix, as they are 2 very different games. They each spoil the other and cannot co-exist in the same game with any happiness amongst either environment.

City of Heroes is my favorite example of PvP ruining a game. It started out with no PvP. It worked. Well. As soon as PvP was introduced, balancing issues between roles became evident (duh!) and the nerffbat was unleashed. I left.

Check out how often the flavor of the month class changes as nerfs hit the game with each patch. Why do you think this happens?

To be clear, I do not dislike PvP. It is another way of playing online games. It is just that the two (PvE/PvP) have tried to co-exist for over a decade and there is still no solution.

Can anyone name one game that has both great PvE AND PvP? I would like to try it since there is no mutually exclusive games out there. I'm not talking "passable" games. I am talking good games. I have heard game X is great for PvP or game K is awesome for PvE, but I have not heard of a game that incorporates both in an enjoyable combination.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search