So I've got these super neat idea for a game with fully dynamic environments (break stuff, build stuff) but the world servers will be hosted by players so I can't make any authoritive actions on them so I'm thinking I have to use time based progression since the character server will be detached from player servers.

So levels \ skills gained will be based on time online. So level 2 takes maybe 15 minutes and it keeps going up from there.

How do you feel about this kind of progression? You can pretty much level just by sitting there afk, but I'm thinking this will make the game more about the actual gameplay instead of grinding for shinies xp or what have you.

Players will also gain money, items, tools etc just by spending time online, but these things will decay, except for maybe money. But they don't get all items at a time... so say every hour they can get a tool, but they can't get every tool. They'll have to pick one from a pool. Players can also trade all this stuff. Or leave it in a treasure chest for someone to find.

At first I misread and thought it would be based on time since character creation, so that you get the same experience whether you're logged in all day or not at all. Even that system—which I don't care for very much—would be better than one where you have to stay logged in for xp.

I'm not sure I understand how the character data will be on a different server and how that makes time-based progression necessary or preferable.

Your idea sounds almost exactly like EVE, except in that game you can actually log off and gain levels/skills. Sorry, but it's not a new concept.

I'm a strong supporter of effort-based progression myself. If somebody is willing to put forth the time and effort to train themselves or obtain money or resources, they should be rewarded more than others who just sit around and do nothing. It's only fair.

You don't get big arm muscles by hanging out with friends or sitting around on your couch doing nothing, you get them by doing push-ups, lots of them. And you don't get a paycheck if you do nothing either, that just makes you a bum.

The problem with modern games is that there's either too little or too much effort involved in gaining specific things (money, items, levels). Finding a balance that your players approve of while keeping it a challenge is very difficult. Obviously you cannot make everybody happy at once and some haters will hate.

This debate sounds like experience communism vs experience capitalism.

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

Your idea sounds almost exactly like EVE, except in that game you can actually log off and gain levels/skills. Sorry, but it's not a new concept.

Other than it being some kind of passive system, it's nothing at all like EVE.

Jusom, what is the perceived benefit for the actual people playing the game and acquiring these things through gameplay or for the developers running the game to have a bunch of idlers using keep-alive programs to stay connected in order to accumulate free wealth and resources?

Time based progression is necessary because of the player hosted servers, and the character data would be on a master server.

If players hack the hosted server they can just send messages that they instantly killed all the monsters on their server and instantly gain tons of xp.

I guess players and monsters could be registered on the master server and determining who is attacking what and when they die xp could be distributed there when the monster dies.

I think the time online based approach is still the best though, that way instead of applying xp for various actions... killing monsters, crafting, harvesting etc.... players could get xp even while doing menial things like traveling or doing whatever they want. I think it will best fit the type of game I want to make... the game will include a bunch of adventure type game play to, like solving puzzles in dungeons, interacting with the environment etc, and it would be easier to just give them a steady flow of xp.

Maybe I'll throw in some xp bonuses for some actions, but the xp given from them would probably be pretty low.

Offline progression just doesn't make sense to me though.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

Your idea sounds almost exactly like EVE, except in that game you can actually log off and gain levels/skills. Sorry, but it's not a new concept.

Other than it being some kind of passive system, it's nothing at all like EVE.

 

Jusom, what is the perceived benefit for the actual people playing the game and acquiring these things through gameplay or for the developers running the game to have a bunch of idlers using keep-alive programs to stay connected in order to accumulate free wealth and resources?

The benefit is they are actually enjoying the game. Also, I think I'd put some sort of cap on resources so there wouldn't be much point to spend a lot of time idleing.

People could freeload, but the option is open for everyone.

One potential problem is that idle people would take up server spots and resources from people that actually want to play the game.

So taking that into consideration, progression online or offline might make more sense.

Originally posted by jusomdude

So I've got these super neat idea for a game with fully dynamic environments (break stuff, build stuff) but the world servers will be hosted by players so I can't make any authoritive actions on them so I'm thinking I have to use time based progression since the character server will be detached from player servers.

 

So levels \ skills gained will be based on time online. So level 2 takes maybe 15 minutes and it keeps going up from there.

 

How do you feel about this kind of progression? You can pretty much level just by sitting there afk, but I'm thinking this will make the game more about the actual gameplay instead of grinding for shinies xp or what have you.

Players will also gain money, items, tools etc just by spending time online, but these things will decay, except for maybe money. But they don't get all items at a time... so say every hour they can get a tool, but they can't get every tool. They'll have to pick one from a pool. Players can also trade all this stuff. Or leave it in a treasure chest for someone to find.

you need to take 2 things into consideration

as you stated, staying logged afk will get you progress overnight. this can be easely countered by adding a action recognition. (like they did in... damn can't remember the game) where they log you off if they logged 1 hour without action input)

the problem with that is macros. nothing is stopping a player from creating his own private server and having a key stroke pressed every 15 minutes by a 3rd party program (that doesn't alter the game) it just presses a key on your keyboard.

as for the idea itself, you are lvl say 51 and you see progression required to lvl up 200 hours, you are ok christ this is going to hurt... but you tough it out... then from lvl 51 to 52 you need another 250 hours at this point your only progression that you can do requires another 250 hours, what would happen at lvl 98-lvl 99 4000 hours? people are going to get discouraged (i know i would)

EvE online does it in such a way that you can always pick a 4 minute skill if you want or a handfull of skills that take you maybe 30 days to get... even the hard core skills at lvl 5 would take say 60 days MAX 

on top of that you dont have to play or be logged on so it does not much difference to your gameplay.

so i will say no, that idea is not what i would play. and i dont think many would either.

seing 250 hours of gameplay is discouraging, and there is no alternative, i cant just say ok im going to lvl up somehting else... since there isnt anything else to lvl up except your xp

what you can do is have 2 overlapping systems. one that requires normal xp like kill baby dragon you get 20 xp to lvl up AND get veteranship xp (or something with a fancy name) that grants you something else, prestige rewards, titles. you have played 400000 hours you are known as ancient elder of older ages of long ago. 

I think it would be better to have a system where either a.) you are capped at some amount of xp per day (say 1000 xp) so that cheaters really aren't saving themselves a significant amount of time, or b.) you get 1000 xp automatically when you log in for the first time each day and that's the only way of gaining xp. Again, neither of these are spectacular but they are probably better than being rewarded for staying logged in forever.

Originally posted by Disdena

I think it would be better to have a system where either a.) you are capped at some amount of xp per day (say 1000 xp) so that cheaters really aren't saving themselves a significant amount of time, or b.) you get 1000 xp automatically when you log in for the first time each day and that's the only way of gaining xp. Again, neither of these are spectacular but they are probably better than being rewarded for staying logged in forever.

Agreed. Anything's better than wasting player time and server resources with AFKing for points and cash.

Vindictus has a great system for passive skill gain. It has a cap on the stored points to apply to skills and also a few level caps on some of the skills themselves to prevent supertwinking.

Link: http://www.vindictuswiki.com/wiki/Meditation

I definetely want something different, I'm tired of clubbing monsters or gathering 10x for a handful of xp... with these things you are essentially FORCED to play the game that way instead of doing whatever you want.

Maybe I'd add achievements for killing a lot of monsters or something for people that like grinding.

But I want to make fighting enemies more about fighting to survive rather than treating them as xp and loot pinatas.

I want to focus on creating really fun gameplay, not just boring repetitive things people only do because they're getting 5 gold and 1000xp or something.

Think about it, in current MMOs, would you even bother killing enemies, or doing quests if they offered no reward? I really doubt it. I honestly don't think many people would.

And as for the 4000 hours for level 98-99 or whatever, I don't see why it would have to scale so badly. It could take as little as 20 hours, or even less, it's up in the air.

It's all about playing the game because it's FUN, not because players are getting wrapped up in a rat race to have a better carrot.

If I am gonna use a passive progression I think I'll make it so players level at the same speed whther online or off. That way players don't sit there afk just to progress.

Originally posted by Disdena

I think it would be better to have a system where either a.) you are capped at some amount of xp per day (say 1000 xp) so that cheaters really aren't saving themselves a significant amount of time, or b.) you get 1000 xp automatically when you log in for the first time each day and that's the only way of gaining xp. Again, neither of these are spectacular but they are probably better than being rewarded for staying logged in forever.

i like this :) it could be also rather easily tweeked to let the new players catch up faster to the old players (well not completely catch up, but to close the gap) or even be used for a game with no level cap

something like this:

cap/xp you get per day you log in is 1000, but only as a base and minimum

real cap is calculated like 1000 + (x*nr_of_days_since_launch), where x is some small number like 1 to 10

as long as your current cap is higher then 1000, it will go down by e.g. 1 for every day you log in