Not to many topics spark the interest of MMO players moreso than PvP.  Furthermore, most MMO games that have focused on PvP (and released in the last 5 years) have not performed well (in terms of retaining a solid player base for an extended period of time).  As a PvP player, some of the failures of PvP MMOs has been frustrating because it makes it less likely the next developer will try to build upon PvP and instead focus on PvE.  So, with that brief introduction, i wanted to list the key attributes that could make a PvP-focued MMO successful.  Please add your own attributes.

• This is to change the perception that "the game begins at level x" mentality. The journey should be the same as the end-game.  There should be a minimal difference between "end-game" and leveling.

• My major problem with most PvP MMO games is the 2-sided fight, which results in one-side winning via population "zerg", and the losing side becoming frustrated and logging off and/or quitting the game, which of course makes it even worse.  While DAOC did this, the factions were unbalanced in skills/spell combinations. Guild Wars 2 is proposing a 3-way server battle in open-world PvP is an example of solving the problem.

• This is the idea to generate faction-pride. People should care about whether or not they have the PvP objectives. Major PvP objectives should be temporary because it could allow one-side to dominate in PvP. 

• Many players are motivated to improving their characters over time and like to be recognized for it. 

• This allows PvP players to generate the best gear rather than forcing them into PvE.  This doesn't mean PvE rewards are bad, just that PvE raids are not required to have the best gear in PvP.  People who only PvE can also craft this gear as the same ingredients drop in PvE as in PvP, but perhaps at a lower drop-rate percentage.

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

• Tries to reduce the benefits of pre-made groups by giving voice chat in-game, and prevents spying because that voice chat only works for that faction.  Having automatic chat channels in PvP should also improve faction pride and coordination, especially for those without microphones. 

• Everyone knows the nerf-bat will come around, and around, and around in a PvP MMO game.  It just is a fact of MMO games. Given the investments in time and energy by players into their charactes, game companies should allow players to change their characters in the face of game-changing mechanics.  How easy it should be is up for debate.  

• Eventually every game faces a decline in population and PvP games require decent population to work. The game should have a plan in place to make server merging or cross-server integration seemless to the players rather than causing some type of drama. 

Originally posted by SBE1

Scenarios provide less benefits than open-world PvP when server populations reach "medium" or higher but full benefits when the server has low-population.  Scenarios try to fit pre-made groups against other pre-made groups. 

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

Why, why, why do you need to force people out of scenarios?! Don't you want people to do what they want? Shouldn't they play the game just the way they like it? I am absolutely against such a reward system.

"Yeah, you can do scenarios but you get less EXP and and loot." How do you think people will react? -They will be forced to open world PvP. Every "should" becomes a "must" especially when you talk about power gamers.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SBE1

Scenarios provide less benefits than open-world PvP when server populations reach "medium" or higher but full benefits when the server has low-population.  Scenarios try to fit pre-made groups against other pre-made groups. 

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

Why, why, why do you need to force people out of scenarios?! Don't you want people to do what they want? Shouldn't they play the game just the way they like it? I am absolutely against such a reward system.

"Yeah, you can do scenarios but you get less EXP and and loot." How do you think people will react? -They will be forced to open world PvP. Every "should" becomes a "must" especially when you talk about power gamers.

How is incentivising people to take part in open world pvp 'forcing' people out of scenarios again? Frankly I would imagine those people who like taking part in scenarios for the enjoyment/fun or competitive aspect of it wouldn't give two shits about getting slightly less xp from them.

Player: "Oh man I pvp in teh arenas because it's like esportz yo, real pvp." 

Dev: 5% slower experience gain from scenarios.

Player: "FFS now you have killed all reason for me to pwn in arenaz!!!!!!!!."

Another DAoC 2 post?  Thinly disguised but immediately recognizable with the addition of "at least three factions". 

Really?

Nothing to see here.  Move along.

The most important thing for me is to not have the pvp based on gear. It gets old having to keep grinding gear to enjoy some pvp from time to time. A heads up though pvp to me is just a side game nothing more so take what I say as a grain of salt. :P

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SBE1

Scenarios provide less benefits than open-world PvP when server populations reach "medium" or higher but full benefits when the server has low-population.  Scenarios try to fit pre-made groups against other pre-made groups. 

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

Why, why, why do you need to force people out of scenarios?! Don't you want people to do what they want? Shouldn't they play the game just the way they like it? I am absolutely against such a reward system.

"Yeah, you can do scenarios but you get less EXP and and loot." How do you think people will react? -They will be forced to open world PvP. Every "should" becomes a "must" especially when you talk about power gamers.

How is incentivising people to take part in open world pvp 'forcing' people out of scenarios again? Frankly I would imagine those people who like taking part in scenarios for the enjoyment/fun or competitive aspect of it wouldn't give two shits about getting slightly less xp from them.

 

Player: "Oh man I pvp in teh arenas because it's like esportz yo, real pvp." 

Dev: 5% slower experience gain from scenarios.

Player: "FFS now you have killed all reason for me to pwn in arenaz!!!!!!!!."

Whats wrong with equal rewards then?

Get rid of Battlegrounds, Warfronts and scenerios ... they kill pvp. Give meaningful world pvp and you got a hit. World PvP is the only PvP. Battlegounds and all that are just gear grinds. Get rid of PvP gear. Make crafted gear the best. Make raids not drop gear but items to create the best of the crafted gear. You stimulate the economy that way and introduce real ingame trade. Sieges. Sieges. Sieges. Player housing. Destructable player housing.

Win.

Edit:

Arena's would be fine, so long as they are done correctly, meaning you can't que for them wherever the hell you want. You have to go into the city and speak to the arena master to participate. Have an actual area, where other players can go sit in the stands and spectate for real.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SBE1

Scenarios provide less benefits than open-world PvP when server populations reach "medium" or higher but full benefits when the server has low-population.  Scenarios try to fit pre-made groups against other pre-made groups. 

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

Why, why, why do you need to force people out of scenarios?! Don't you want people to do what they want? Shouldn't they play the game just the way they like it? I am absolutely against such a reward system.

"Yeah, you can do scenarios but you get less EXP and and loot." How do you think people will react? -They will be forced to open world PvP. Every "should" becomes a "must" especially when you talk about power gamers.

How is incentivising people to take part in open world pvp 'forcing' people out of scenarios again? Frankly I would imagine those people who like taking part in scenarios for the enjoyment/fun or competitive aspect of it wouldn't give two shits about getting slightly less xp from them.

 

Player: "Oh man I pvp in teh arenas because it's like esportz yo, real pvp." 

Dev: 5% slower experience gain from scenarios.

Player: "FFS now you have killed all reason for me to pwn in arenaz!!!!!!!!."

Whats wrong with equal rewards then?

Bit of an odd question. There is nothing wrong with 'equal rewards' if the tasks undertaken to get them are the same. Or that one task is not inhibited by this (frankly unnecessary) drive for 'equality'. I think the more pertinent question is: What is the dire need for equal rewards from every single task?

People who pvp in arenas for the competitive aspect/fun of it shouldn't really be getting their knickers in a twist over the thought of open world pvpers being able to potentially get slightly better rewards, or slightly more xp. Those players though who are all about teh shinies will indeed shy away from open world pvp and take part in arenas if the rewards are equal for the simple reason they are a hell of alot faster to do.

Personally I couldn't care less about who gets what/faster, but I can't see why having slightly differing rewards for different game aspects it's such a game killer. Tbh maybe people should have to try their hands at a few different things in a game if they want the best of everything, as opposed to just being given the very best/fastest stuff/route without trying to diversify at all.

I don't particularly enjoy pve, but I don't mind if I had to take part in some mind numbing raid in order to get an item I couldn't get through pvp. And I certainly couldn't care less if someone managed to level up slightly faster by using a different play style.

First, this isn't a DAOC 2 thread.  I will grant you that there were lots of things DAOC did correctly in PvP (3 or more factions), but a lot of things they did poorly.  A short list would be unbalanced classes/factions, overpowered PvE gear, inability to level in PvP (no gear drops), no scenarios, etc.  As I said in my post, Guild Wars 2 is potentially the best match so far, as it too has 3 factions (1 sever against 2 other servers, which also allows for identical classes/skills) and offers scenario fights.  Mythic created Warhammer (based upon a lot of things done in DAOC, so call it DAOC 1.5) and it was an epic fail as demonstrated how many server merges they have done.

As for battlegrounds/scenarios, I just feel that it is a "quick fix" PvP rush, and hence it is great when server populations are low and finding open-world PvP becomes more difficult.  Furthermore, scenarios really don't have much of a "sand box game" quality to it since it takes place in an instanced area, and thus decreases the faction-based community building that I think a successful game should have.  You saw this happen in Warhammer when people just began ignoring open world PvP and always were in que for a scenario pop. The community began pleading with those in scenarios to help in open-world PvP, and those in scenarios began to harrass (in chat) those in open world PvP.  It really killed the community.   Since I think communities are harder to build the more instanced it becomes, that's why I believe a modest benefit for doing open-world Pvp should be given once population levels on the server are adequate.

I was hoping people would post their own attributes rather than freaking out about scenarios versus open-world PvP, but that's they way it goes. 

Originally posted by SBE1

Go with at least 3 factions in PvP to prevent one side from dominating. Make each faction have exactly the same skills and spells, but change the artwork/graphics. 

No, no, no - I hate it when they simply make every race have the same spells and abilities and simply change graphics for the characters. SO BORING!  I want different abilities and spells for each race otherwise why even bother with races.

For me, the main reason PvP is so boring is that there's no real risk or reward.  What's the point of me killing you when i can't loot anything off you and you pop back, good as new and with no damage to any of your possessions, 10 seconds later?  I don't want the "reward" of some stupid, abstract points system where I spend points at some vendor, either.  I want to loot the people I kill, simple as that.

I know people bang on about pvp in Eve, but they do so for a very good reason.  No game gives you the feeling of satisfaction you get when you destroy someone's ship causing them to lose millions of ISK, then loot anything from the cargo and ship's modules that survived the blast which might cause them to lose millions more.  Of course, THEY might do that to ME instead - that's the excitement factor.  Fantasy MMO pvp just seems... bland.

Originally posted by Vunak23

 

Arena's would be fine, so long as they are done correctly, meaning you can't que for them wherever the hell you want. You have to go into the city and speak to the arena master to participate. Have an actual area, where other players can go sit in the stands and spectate for real.

Can't agree more dude. It also adds to mthe gameworld's atmosphere,with spectators on the seats aka rome's colisseum's arenas figths.

Tournaments in weekends at specific times where players can travel to the city that holds them and declare participation.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SBE1

Scenarios provide less benefits than open-world PvP when server populations reach "medium" or higher but full benefits when the server has low-population.  Scenarios try to fit pre-made groups against other pre-made groups. 

• Scenarios should be a viable alternative to people playing in "non-peak" times to get PvP action quickly. However, the game encourages (but doesn't force) open-world PvP. Putting PUGs against pre-made groups is just a receipe for frustration and should be avoided if possible.

Why, why, why do you need to force people out of scenarios?! Don't you want people to do what they want? Shouldn't they play the game just the way they like it? I am absolutely against such a reward system.

"Yeah, you can do scenarios but you get less EXP and and loot." How do you think people will react? -They will be forced to open world PvP. Every "should" becomes a "must" especially when you talk about power gamers.

@ Quirhid

well, why why why do you need to force people into scenarios?   Don't you want people around in the game world or is an MMO just supposed to be a lobby?    When people log in to an MMORPG, it should NOT be an empty lobby designed to look like a forest for them to wait for a queue to pop them in a scenario.       Scenarios were never supposed to be the bulk of gameplay, that's why MMOs were made so large with so much enviornment.      You want to sit in scenarios and minigames?  Why not just play Diablo or Starcraft or Unreal Tournament?    I don't understand this necessity for people to stop playing in the WORLD.  It's ludicrous.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper
 

Whats wrong with equal rewards then?

Bit of an odd question. There is nothing wrong with 'equal rewards' if the tasks undertaken to get them are the same. Or that one task is not inhibited by this (frankly unnecessary) drive for 'equality'. I think the more pertinent question is: What is the dire need for equal rewards from every single task?

 

People who pvp in arenas for the competitive aspect/fun of it shouldn't really be getting their knickers in a twist over the thought of open world pvpers being able to potentially get slightly better rewards, or slightly more xp. Those players though who are all about teh shinies will indeed shy away from open world pvp and take part in arenas if the rewards are equal for the simple reason they are a hell of alot faster to do.

 

Personally I couldn't care less about who gets what/faster, but I can't see why having slightly differing rewards for different game aspects it's such a game killer. Tbh maybe people should have to try their hands at a few different things in a game if they want the best of everything, as opposed to just being given the very best/fastest stuff/route without trying to diversify at all.

 

I don't particularly enjoy pve, but I don't mind if I had to take part in some mind numbing raid in order to get an item I couldn't get through pvp. And I certainly couldn't care less if someone managed to level up slightly faster by using a different play style.

With equal rewards, people can do whatever they like and don't need to worry them. If you don't care either way, then equal rewards is the way to go. There are no cons for equal rewards.

Originally posted by Vunak23

 

Arena's would be fine, so long as they are done correctly, meaning you can't que for them wherever the hell you want. You have to go into the city and speak to the arena master to participate. Have an actual area, where other players can go sit in the stands and spectate for real.

Dude this is a great idea.    The one thing that would make Arenas and their widespread use in MMOs exceptible in terms of not killing population, and free-form PvP, would be to add spectators and perhaps other content for the players outside the battle to get involved in.    

Not to mention how much better it is to have a location inside a city or in the world where players are REQUIRED to go to queue up, making use of the land, travel, and conflict.    Queuing up from anywhere in the game is "fast", sure, but tbh I think that's ruining the community.   Everything is not supposed to be fast.   MMO content is longwinded, and takes time to explore, achieve, and progress.   This whole "hurry up and win, hurry up and level, hurry up and queue, hurry up and gear up" mentality is just utterly disgusting.   

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

With equal rewards, people can do whatever they like and don't need to worry them. If you don't care either way, then equal rewards is the way to go. There are no cons for equal rewards.

I agree in a personal regard, but once the reward tables become equal, it will then be a question of "speed" since people in MMOs these days are only concerned with how fast they get stuff.   

If it's faster to queue up to an arena to get shinies than it is to go out and dominate an opposing faction's continent for shinies, guess where most of the pvpers will lean towards?   Arenas as usual....

I still think that reward systems for pvp in general are kind of messed up.    Most pvpers are in it for the gear and no longer in it for the pure pvp fun.      I personally think it'd be better to reward PVP (instanced or not) with a seperate rewards table besides gear.    Aesthetics, more or less:  character customization, light effects, animations, emotes, sounds, buffs, mount abilities, mount customizations, social benefits, public announcements, etc...  

leave the gear race to the people who don't mind grinding dungeons and raids over and over and over...

Originally posted by mm0wiggins

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

@ Quirhid

well, why why why do you need to force people into scenarios?   Don't you want people around in the game world or is an MMO just supposed to be a lobby?    When people log in to an MMORPG, it should NOT be an empty lobby designed to look like a forest for them to wait for a queue to pop them in a scenario.       Scenarios were never supposed to be the bulk of gameplay, that's why MMOs were made so large with so much enviornment.      You want to sit in scenarios and minigames?  Why not just play Diablo or Starcraft or Unreal Tournament?    I don't understand this necessity for people to stop playing in the WORLD.  It's ludicrous.

I don't want to force people into scenarios. I don't see the need to force people out of them either. Why can't players play the game just the way they like it?

I don't care what MMORPGs are about. I don't care what they're supposed to be. Great majority of gamers are not purists like you and many others in these forums. They just want to play a good game and have fun. If scenarios offers them more fun than open PvP, why should you discourage them from doing what they like? Who are you to tell them how they should enjoy their game?

Let the players choose. I'm against all artificial incentives for alternative playstyles. Players should be equally rewarded from instanced PvP and from open-world PvP if the game has both. Just like groups should not get any artificial EXP buffs over soloing. It just seems very wrong to me to implement multiple playstyles but only favor one. Relic features in an old game I can understand, but in a new game this is unacceptable.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I don't care what MMORPGs are about. I don't care what they're supposed to be. Great majority of gamers are not purists like you and many others in these forums. They just want to play a good game and have fun. If scenarios offers them more fun than open PvP, why should you discourage them from doing what they like? Who are you to tell them how they should enjoy their game?

Let the players choose. I'm against all artificial incentives for alternative playstyles. Players should be equally rewarded from instanced PvP and from open-world PvP if the game has both. Just like groups should get any artificial EXP buffs over solloing. It just seems very wrong to me to implement multiple playstyles but only favor one. Relic features in an old game I can understand, but in a new game this is unacceptable.

If a person wants a lobby game where they only see other people in controlled, instanced scenarios, I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to play that.    I'm just saying that it's pretty unacceptable that they want MMORPGs to keep CHANGING their design, trying to compensate for these players.  

Why is it so hard to just play a different genre of game?    I don't go buy fighting games and then demand from the developers that they change them into RPGs that will break character balance and add auction houses and loot and other things that simply don't belong in Fighting games. ... If i want that stuff, I'd play RPGs.      I feel the same for the lobbyists...  Why do MMORPGs have to change for the people that just want instant gratification when THE ENTIRE WORLD OF GAMING outside of MMORPGs already offers this?!??!?!?!!?

Originally posted by mm0wiggins

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

 

If a person wants a lobby game where they only see other people in controlled, instanced scenarios, I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to play that.    I'm just saying that it's pretty unacceptable that they want MMORPGs to keep CHANGING their design, trying to compensate for these players.  

Why is it so hard to just play a different genre of game?    I don't go buy fighting games and then demand from the developers that they change them into RPGs that will break character balance and add auction houses and loot and other things that simply don't belong in Fighting games. ... If i want that stuff, I'd play RPGs.      I feel the same for the lobbyists...  Why do MMORPGs have to change for the people that just want instant gratification when THE ENTIRE WORLD OF GAMING outside of MMORPGs already offers this?!??!?!?!!?

All games should change for the people. You are just unlucky that you are in a minority.

You have some good points. I am a gamer who loves PvP AND PvE. I can choose one or the other but every now and then I NEED PvP so I can feel more accomplished with the character/avatar I designed and outfitted.

I like what Blizzard has done with WoW and the PvP/PvE servers so you can choose which type of gaming you prefer.

Originally posted by Quirhid

All games should change for the people. You are just unlucky that you are in a minority.

Just because I don't want what you want doesn't make me a part of some minority.  I've heard this before, and I've seen it before said to others, and usually from the same opposition.     

After talking to many gamers over the last few years; MMO gamers especially, I no longer buy into this "people who don't like where MMOs are headed are the minority" nonsense.      Of all the forums i've been through, and still am a part of, and of all the MMOs i've played, and still subscribe to, the one thing I've noticed is the vocal MAJORITY are people like me, that simply don't have a choice but to play what's out there.       Again, incase the wires got crossed, I'll say it.  The vocal Majority.

The vocal minority are people who voice an absolute love for the current state of mmos.

The actual majority players in this genre don't say much if anything at all on any forum, so we end up assuming what they think based on our own bias.     

I'm glad you enjoy lobby gaming, those of you who disagree with the OP.  I just wish you would try lobby designed games once you get your 2-3 month fix of MMOs (since that's all that's needed to achieve everything in them now.) and perhaps give the developers a few years break from trying to push out these ultra action minigames so they can concentrate on making virtual worlds again, for a change.