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Characters, Skills, Etc.  » Progression Without the Combat/Quest Grind

14 posts found
  jasimon

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/10
Posts: 87

 
OP  5/20/11 1:10:55 PM#1

What are some possible ways to get the sense of advancement/progression without the vertical xp/skill grind?

 

One alternative is the time-based progression ala EVE Online, and while that works for some things, it just doesn't do it for me.  Leads to a lack of motivation to log in.

 

Another idea that I like is the idea of progression in a faction.  Whether it's rising through the ranks in your army or church or guild, the progression comes through achieving tangible things and prestige within the system.  I guess in a sense it's a little "quest" like, but I think it can be done in a way that doesn't feel as grindy as the "Kill ten rats" system.  Especially if these factions are player controlled and therefore you're simply impressing another player with your skills and they promote you.

 

And then of course there's the idea of just allowing for horizontal progression by expanding your skill base/repitoire, but then how exactly you come upon these new skills or abilities is up in the air.

 

Any other idea?

Top MMOs: Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE Online, Planetside
Played: Pretty much everything at one point or another

  Caldenfor

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/09
Posts: 133

5/20/11 5:54:34 PM#2

It depends on the game: In an RVR based game where PVP balance is key to the success of the game I am a proponent of lowering the power curve of characters and making levels come easier. I believe PVP needs to be kept separate from PVE, but PVP areas CAN have PVE in them.

In this atmosphere I would take away the sheer mass number of quests that games provide these days (Rift/WoW/Aion/etc) and make the quests more meaningful a la epic quests from EQ. They wouldn't all be epic, but they should be of value to the game and to the players. Restrict how many quests an individual can accept at any given time and have quests be on an individual basis, not once per every character in the game. You can get help from other players, but they will not be on the same quest that you are.

Have your character gain levels, but also gain competency in their skills as well. A level 50 Paladin would have the capability to unlock up to the max available in the skill, but they would actually have to use the skill in order to work towards reaching that max. The levels come faster than the skill points and if you power level a character you may be level 50, but you most likely won't have potent abilities that other slower developed level 50s would have.

To replace the loss of quests, develop gameplay that promotes players creating their own tasks that would provide experience/skill gains along the way. Like in Ultima Online you needed to go hunt special materials which resulted in a supply and demand economy where you weren't driven to do something because an NPC asked you to do it, but because it was of value to you to do of your own accord. There could be other non-combat activities to pursue as well.

In addition to having Character levels and Skill levels, you could have a ranking system developed for your contributions towards your realm as well as a PVP ranking system. These could be combined into one system so players can contribute without being forced to PVP. You could also try and develop an honor/respect scale for characters so people may have more of a grasp for the way players play their characters. It would provide much gameplay wise, but it could contribute to RP.

  User Deleted
12/01/11 9:59:44 PM#3

Instead of doing quests, combat ane experience, do content completion based on meters or content cleared, like finishing the WOTLK death knight starting area but without the levels. You then Gain levels and skills AFTER you complete content rather than During or at the same time as in most mmorpgs. Think of it this way, you have many doors, After you pass a certain door you are rewarded with earned skills. Similar to an old school D@D game where you are rewarded for completion and for things done along the way. To level further you must complete more content, however YOU choose what that content is and even which faction or alighment that content takes place in, as  apposed to the current system of follow question marks of people who are your designated allies. Just put content in the game and set doors in that content and allow the player to pass whichever paths he or she chooses. 

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

12/02/11 12:48:49 AM#4

Wealth.

Money made in-game needs to create status and push a ladder of luxury. Perfect for games with in-game housing and intricate deco, as every vain person out there likes to flex with expensive upkeeps and a room full of rare drops strewn around like trinkets. SWG hath taught me well.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  orangeitis

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/11
Posts: 32

12/23/11 8:36:59 AM#5

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

Proud open-world/sandbox MMORPG advocate

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3357

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

12/23/11 8:48:53 AM#6

Well - ideally, story.

However, even WoW probably didnt generated enough revenue to actually produce enough story so people just can keep playing.

  Kaerigan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/06
Posts: 713

12/23/11 8:51:48 AM#7
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

<childish, provocative and highly speculative banner about your favorite game goes here>

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/23/11 2:02:36 PM#8
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.

  orangeitis

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/11
Posts: 32

12/23/11 2:52:01 PM#9
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

Proud open-world/sandbox MMORPG advocate

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/23/11 5:09:32 PM#10
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

You had sims working out and you sat there and watched them. Thats not a relevant distinction. They did have stats for jobs. You had a fitness stat and a cooking stat and some other stats. Also social stats.

  orangeitis

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/11
Posts: 32

12/23/11 6:26:58 PM#11
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

You had sims working out and you sat there and watched them. Thats not a relevant distinction. They did have stats for jobs. You had a fitness stat and a cooking stat and some other stats. Also social stats.


I am not proposing a "sit there and watch them" thing, I'm saying you could actively control them as they work out and jog.

Proud open-world/sandbox MMORPG advocate

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/23/11 8:19:28 PM#12
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

You had sims working out and you sat there and watched them. Thats not a relevant distinction. They did have stats for jobs. You had a fitness stat and a cooking stat and some other stats. Also social stats.


I am not proposing a "sit there and watch them" thing, I'm saying you could actively control them as they work out and jog.

How would you actively control them in jogging? You just toggle to run and click. Please. As for working out, aside from clicking what would that even be like?

  orangeitis

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/11
Posts: 32

12/23/11 9:26:17 PM#13
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

You had sims working out and you sat there and watched them. Thats not a relevant distinction. They did have stats for jobs. You had a fitness stat and a cooking stat and some other stats. Also social stats.


I am not proposing a "sit there and watch them" thing, I'm saying you could actively control them as they work out and jog.

How would you actively control them in jogging? You just toggle to run and click. Please. As for working out, aside from clicking what would that even be like?

Assuming you're using a keyboard: Yeah, you'd toggle run, but you don't have to click if you're using directional or WASD keys to move. That's as actively controlling movement as you can get, IMO. And if you're using a game controller, jogging would be that much easier, though I'd imagine it would be more complicated if you decide to stop and talk to a friend you come by as you're jogging.

And with working out, what's wrong with clicking/button pressing? It's a lot easier than swinging a weapon as you're trying to dodge enemy attacks/not get killed.

What's your point, anyway? The OP asked what alternatives for grinding and questing there could be to strengthen your character. I don't see how my suggestion isn't as valid as a suggestion for realistic game functions would get.

Proud open-world/sandbox MMORPG advocate

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

12/23/11 11:24:31 PM#14
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by orangeitis
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Kaerigan
Originally posted by orangeitis

The solution to non combat-related leveling up lies in realism. Use a stat system where the stats do not increase via level-then-allocate. Use a stat system where you level each stat independantly, with different methods related to each individual stat.

For instance, you want strength? You can get that normally by swinging your weapon, but try weight lifting at the town gym. You want dexterity? Normally you could get it by plucking a bow string or scoring successful crits, but go try crafting things instead. You cant constitution/vitality? Normally you'd increase it by tanking hits, but go try cardio training by running laps around the castle. You want intelligence? Normally you'd get some by casting spells, but go try reading books from your village's library.

I believe this stat system has been done before, but meh. I think it's the best, most versitile system out there.

That sounds like an even worse grind to be honest. Instead of grinding mobs, you'll be grinding weights. Or laps around the castle.

You did lift weights and read books in the sims.


As I remember The SIMS, you didn't, your pet SIMS did. And I don't think The SIMS had MMORPG-like stats, though I do remember maintanence-like stats for them you had to keep up(or down)

You had sims working out and you sat there and watched them. Thats not a relevant distinction. They did have stats for jobs. You had a fitness stat and a cooking stat and some other stats. Also social stats.


I am not proposing a "sit there and watch them" thing, I'm saying you could actively control them as they work out and jog.

How would you actively control them in jogging? You just toggle to run and click. Please. As for working out, aside from clicking what would that even be like?

Assuming you're using a keyboard: Yeah, you'd toggle run, but you don't have to click if you're using directional or WASD keys to move. That's as actively controlling movement as you can get, IMO. And if you're using a game controller, jogging would be that much easier, though I'd imagine it would be more complicated if you decide to stop and talk to a friend you come by as you're jogging.

And with working out, what's wrong with clicking/button pressing? It's a lot easier than swinging a weapon as you're trying to dodge enemy attacks/not get killed.

What's your point, anyway? The OP asked what alternatives for grinding and questing there could be to strengthen your character. I don't see how my suggestion isn't as valid as a suggestion for realistic game functions would get.

Its still grinding! How is this not obvious? You may not be killing monsters but you are still doing mindless button clicking. I don't even have a problem with button clicking, but you are acting like its somehow different from grinding where you repeat the same task over and over.