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News & Features Discussion  » General: This is Endgame, My Friend

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156 posts found

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 147

5/22/11 9:16:36 AM#121

Ugh, doesn't this article explain why there should be a ton of content and a nice high level cap? The game should be about a journey, one that keeps people playing, people shouldn't be fooled into thinking that the best content is reserved for 60+ or whatever the freaking cap is. Devs should be focusing on making content for the journey and stop all this rush crap.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/22/09
Posts: 1151

5/22/11 9:32:24 AM#122

Isabelle, thanks for doing this article. it touches on a lot of issues, particularly the 2d nature of the "end game". you listed many reasons why i left WoW and why i hesitate to sub to any MMO currently. i always found my journey to lvl 85 in WoW the BEST part: a little bit of pvp, little bit of questing, some dungeons. end game should be about variety and exploration. it SHOULD be the BEST part because usually players get there quickly.

im really nervous about investing $$ into TOR because thus far it has been following the WoW formula and we can only hope that BW devs didnt copy WoW's endgame. in contrast, GW2's endgame is supposed to start at lvl 1 because players can face large bosses, pvp and engage in raid-like encounters right off the bat. it is unforunate that TOR's adventures begin with "smash 10 eggs", and the player cant pvp at all until lvl 10.

finally, lots of content at end game =/= fun necessarily. personally, i dont like investing 4 hours of my time to do some silly raid so i can get better gear. it's time for MMO's to move past this.


Advanced Member

Joined: 10/22/04
Posts: 752

stupid is as stupid does

5/22/11 10:35:35 AM#123
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
Originally posted by ormstunga

Yes thats pretty much what I thought about SWG... you didnt to corvette or DWB (at least not pre-cu) to improve gear or "stats". It was all comestic. Nobody would pvp or do anything really in mando armor because of the decay system. It was really hard to get, and you didnt reall want it to break. Stats werent that good either. So ppl didnt really do "endgame" in SWG, it was more of a "look at me wearing this cool looking armor". As such, nobody HAD to do "endgame" farm to stay competitive.

There were very few weapons per server that really impacted pvp (or pve) and they were used with extreme caution, also due to decay system.

 But check this out. Raids in swg were done by 60%+ of the playerbase. That's crazy high.

 Dont know where that number comes from, but that is idd crazy high.

I never went to any of them, and still I logged on daily and had the best MMORPG experience ever.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/11
Posts: 120

5/22/11 10:44:10 AM#124

I loved your article, I wanna follow up on some of the investing money into games comments. I only invest money in games, if I know 100% sure that they are going to lead me on a long term playing path.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3312

5/22/11 1:20:56 PM#125

Unfortunately most games have gotten "endgame" wrong.  Well, really all but one.  DAoC is the only game that got how "Endgame" should be.  You have dragon raids for PvE people, and RvR for PvP people.  There's something for both, and neither gets an advantage over the others in really any way.  Granted it wouldn't hurt you to run some raids before going RvR, but you don't HAVE to in order to be successful in RvR.  It's boggled my mind why we don't have a million DAoC "Clones" lol.

  User Deleted
5/22/11 1:52:33 PM#126

  User Deleted
5/22/11 2:04:16 PM#127
Originally posted by Gravarg

Unfortunately most games have gotten "endgame" wrong.  Well, really all but one.  DAoC is the only game that got how "Endgame" should be.  You have dragon raids for PvE people, and RvR for PvP people.  There's something for both, and neither gets an advantage over the others in really any way.  Granted it wouldn't hurt you to run some raids before going RvR, but you don't HAVE to in order to be successful in RvR.  It's boggled my mind why we don't have a million DAoC "Clones" lol.

I think Guild Wars also did really well with "endgame".

  User Deleted
5/22/11 2:13:02 PM#128

This is absolutely the best article ever written or at the very least my most favorite from you, Isabelle. Thank you for speaking out about endgame. I gave up on MMORPGs long ago.


It's like WoW turned Endgame into eSport tournaments. Into a job.


There is a lot more to cover on this subject though. Like the conflict it causes among the players, how it is affecting other game's development in negative ways, and also about how to fix the max level.


The cure is simple. If only game developers would listen to their players about endgame and actually do something about it then we would get closer to fixing the problem. But so far, game developers seem to have closed their ears and only want to make what they think is fun. Doing so is OK for a small game you only pay for once, but not for a monthly subscription type model game where you promise updates and patches and a customer support. That reminds me, I've sent multiple emails and forum posts to Blizzard about these problems and they always just blow me off with a generic response.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/03
Posts: 183

5/22/11 3:04:39 PM#129

Way back in the early days of MMOs, I believed that as technology progressed we would get true virtual worlds. That promise still keeps me kicking around on the edge of the genre but I don't currently play an MMO and I dont plan to.  As with any 'game', there will come a point when you get bored with it. The repetitive nature of a simple game (or even a complex one) will eventually turn most people away eventually. Most MMOs today fall squarely in the camp of simple. They are even more simple than most games precisely because, you, the player can't even lose the game or win it. There is no purpose to these games other than to say that I reached max level and have items and everyone can get there if they can tolerate the grind. I believe many players are coming to this conclusion slowly. Hopefully, this will evnentually change the genre.


Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/08
Posts: 33

5/22/11 3:49:23 PM#130

It is probably the reason why I'm after all this years still play DAoC, because there endgame means RvR...I see nearly every day a different situation and experince different things in PvP so it won't get boring.

However in all other MMOs, published after 2004 or...they are calloed EQ, one has to visit several, again and again. WAR did something pretty similar and I hated it for that.

Why should I go for better gear, just to get into another Dungeon? It is pretty much pointless to me. I prefer there how it was done in DAoC, it makes sense...yet it is the only MMO that I know what is like this though.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1056

"" "" "" ""

5/22/11 6:48:09 PM#131

Well for everyone that loves DAoC I think they might equally love L2 if they gave it a try. I loved both, but always felt the PvP in L2 was more fun.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 340

5/22/11 8:09:50 PM#132

The reason "endgame" is more important is because it allows someone to create a very distinctive emotional attachment to a character, which in turn results in many months of subscription fees.  If you only care about getting to the max level (a.k.a, "the journey"), then you will never have a strong emotional tie to your character and as soon as you hit max level, you probably will end your subscription or make an alt, and realize it's the same gameplay, then end the subscription.  So yeah, the endgame is what keeps populations long-term.

There are gear-grind theme-park based end-games (not my thing, but lots of people like it), sand-box games and PvP focused sand-box games.  Personally, if it wasn't for the PvP sand-box games like DAOC, I probably wouldn't play MMOs.  I know some people just can't stand PvP, but it's the randomness and uncertainty that makes it a long-term, emontional attachment between the player and their character.  

Endgame is very important.  The journey should also be important.  Getting both right would be fantastic. 


Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 340

5/22/11 8:15:26 PM#133

Originally posted by Gravarg

Unfortunately most games have gotten "endgame" wrong.  Well, really all but one.  DAoC is the only game that got how "Endgame" should be.  You have dragon raids for PvE people, and RvR for PvP people.  There's something for both, and neither gets an advantage over the others in really any way.  Granted it wouldn't hurt you to run some raids before going RvR, but you don't HAVE to in order to be successful in RvR.  It's boggled my mind why we don't have a million DAoC "Clones" lol.


Because so many PvP games released after DAOC have failed.  Shadowbane and Warhammer (a game produced by the same company) both bombed and AOIN was a dissapointment. The major problems with PvP games in MMO are that they all try to do a 2-faction war, instead of a 3-faction war and/or they have open free-for-all PvP which is a niche crowd.    Most developers have gone with a 2-faction based game because it requires a lot less content and graphics coding than a 3-faction based game, and all that costs money. 



Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

5/22/11 9:12:28 PM#134
Originally posted by stayghost
Originally posted by sinjin

OP you are actually very wrong.  SWG had Endgame, DAoC had endgame and so did EQ.  You better go read up and we used that term then as well.  I remember we would raid the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker... I can go on all day but I think you are just too much a rookie to the MMO genre so you made this assumption on your own without asking true old school vets from all of these games.  I have played em all and don't know of any without some form of endgame.  I have used that term since DAoC...


Ultima Online ... 7x GM ... no end game


Thank you. Exactly. Sinjin you made an awful lot of assumptions, all of them WRONG, by the way. You apparently don't know very much about the writer of this article.  WoW was not her first MMO.  And I also played UO and NEVER heard the term "endgame." The whole POINT of an MMO is that it didn't "end."

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club


Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/10
Posts: 1488

5/22/11 9:27:53 PM#135

Thank You. Very good write up. I think I have changed about mind after reading your article. I've played WoW and FFXI. Never liked WoW, the leveling or the endgame, well never got to the endgame because the leveling was not fun. I liked how FFXI played, making a party, preparing for epic battles. I liked the raids in FFXI. But now I am certainly looking forward to the joy ride of leveling in TOR, GW2 and possibly TSW. All three seem very story focused so that's what I had always been looking for in MMO + raids.

Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
Everything We Know about GW2:


Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

5/22/11 9:30:02 PM#136

You're not alone Isabelle. Reading that article made me feel like I had written it and was reading it back to myself, well in almost all aspects. I do love dungeons and grouping, so we'll have to put that to one side, but I hate this blind spot towards the endgame and raiding.

It was EQ that got me so enamoured with MMOs and it was in EQ that the journey meant so much. Ever since, though, it's been steadily progressing towards where the levelling doesn't matter but the reaching of the level cap does, and it's getting old.

EQ2 started out alright, but on my return to the game (a few years on) it was almost as if you had to be at level cap (forget what it was at that time) to be recognised. I can recall trying to get shard runs and, even though a 78 or 79 (or was it 68 and 69) could manage the content admirably they would never be picked...unless no one was avaialble. You had to be max level to get noticed, and that meant slogging to the end with solo questing.

It then went even further, and grouping was being phased out for pick up raid after pick up raid. MMOs had no longer become the domain of PUGs, as was so enjoyable in EQ, but the domain of PURs.

Other game experiences have been similar. LotRO may have started off being all about the journey, though I wasn't there. When I did join the game it was all about the slog so that I could be max level and experience the fun. Mid level dungeons were populated by the few people that were willing to sit around for hours waiting to do a dungeon, or the high levels that were bored and fancied helping out a few sloggers. It's an aside but I hate that. If a rush to the endgame, and then nothing to do, promotes one thing then it's high levels joining mid level dungeon groups and making things so easy that they become dull and boring.

Then came Rift, a game I've harped on about my hatred of to a major extent. I sometimes wonder if anyone who sees my username in a thread assumes I'm there to talk about how awful Rift was. It's probably not the case, but my hatred of Rift rises above all others. It's the furthest point possible from my old experience of EQ in that the journey matters not one bit. It's all about a quick rush to the endgame and then enjoying what Trion can provide. There's little reason to even make alts due to the class system and the shallowness of the journey. I hope to god that Rift does not become the standard model for MMOs now, because I couldn't stomach another game like that. Trion used to talk about making the endgame fun, but I never eralised that what they emant was that the endgame was the mother of all things...where it was at.

I went back to EQ, for the progression server, chiefly because I was so disillusioned with the whole MMO things and where it had gone with Rift. Without Rift's progressing of the problem inherent with MMOs I might have left my memories alone.

What I found was that the cause of the problem is not only the dev companies but the players themselves. Not all players, but many, are convinced that the endgame is the place to be and EQ went along that path with the new servers. There was a frantic rush to the level cap and an increase of MMO greed with it. It wasn't the journey that I remember from my first days in EQ back in 2002.

It would be nice if the dev coimpanies were entirely to blame, because it would be easier to change this doldrum that MMOs find themselves in, but the attitude of the players needs to change too. It is true that the games have made that attitude achievable, but now players wnat it and devs likely feel they have to provide it.

I really hope the up and coming games can change the MMO experience to one that promotes the journey and the social aspect of MMOs. It is sadly lost at the moment and will take a brave developer to alter things.

All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!


Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 12

5/22/11 9:48:59 PM#137

Excellent article! While I *do* enjoy group content, every single MMO where I have been *forced* into group play in order to meaningfully progress my character, has resulted in my unsubscribing.

Sure, groups and raids can be fun, but not constantly. It's like going to work one day and being told that from this day forth, you will participate in comittee meetings every day...forever! *shiver* I'm sorry, but is there another department I can transfer to? Pay cut? That's fine, I'll make do somehow.

I am *always* in a Guild, and I *love* chatting with my friends. I'm not anti-social. I just don't like being forced to group every day in order to progress. I'll make alts, or craft, or just chat with people...until that just gets old...and then I will unsub. In fact, the *first* thing I look for in an MMO is how solo-friendly it is. If an MMO *requires* grouping from the start, I don't care how much I like the IP or the publisher - I won't take a second look at it.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/10
Posts: 109

5/22/11 10:35:19 PM#138


raiding & the whole "endgame" concept was a nice gimmick for mmo's for a few years but the fun of it has worn off & it all feels much more like work for little reward. Plus it never really fits all that well into the feel of the game itself when you do it once or twice a week. The mentality of mmo's having an end to them should be corrected.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 957

5/22/11 11:34:45 PM#139

I think nowdays when people say "there is no endgame" they actually mean "all there is to do at cap is raiding".

Like Seriously every game continues to do this and while some like WAR allow you to experience some of the thrills of endgame as you level up still it has the ultimate goal of hitting cap & then playing PvP or raiding.

Niche MMO's should take particular note, if you have a small group of people interested in your game then worst case scenario only 1 quarter of them are probably interested in raiding full time (in a similar vein its probably only a quarter of your population that is interested in endgame crafting also). Which means if Raiding and multi person instances is all you offer as endgame yoru already small community will be decimated once people start reaching cap as non raiders get bored and move on.

To help maybe fix this endgame design paralysis that is going on in the MMO genre perhaps having regular content updates adding PvP & PvE content , randomly generated instances (not just at endgame but throughout leveling), sideways leveling (you hit cap but then you can earn other interesting abilities/perks by continuing to gain xp), expanded crafting, retiring an old character to bestow benefits upon new characters (parent passing on to son/daughter type thing) new story arcs and world events to participate in (world events should not just be for endgamers) and of course leaving plenty of opportunities open for exploring (random instances are like the ultimate for explorers).

I am sure there are plenty of other great ideas out there too but as with any "innovation in MMO's" no one wants to be the first to take a risk, most titles are too busy trying to play catchup to WoW and steal their susbscribers.


Advanced Member

Joined: 11/01/06
Posts: 986

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5/23/11 1:43:19 AM#140

The end-game does need a facelift in nearly every MMORPG.  It stops being fun after the 3rd or 4th time you take down a boss.  It becomes a weekly 'job'.  So do 'daily' quests.  While I do like that they 'help increase faction', needing to do them at all is an indication that something is 'broken', honestly. 

If end-game were so much fun... Trade Channel Trash Talk either wouldn't exist OR it would be 'tolerable'. 

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