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News & Features Discussion  » General: This is Endgame, My Friend

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156 posts found
  Gruug

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 1240

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

5/21/11 8:13:07 PM#101

 

I agree with the article 100% and then some. And, doing just alts once you reach that proverbial endgame only goes so far as well. PvP in most (come to think of it ALL) MMO's at so-called endgame is pretty much pointless as well. Herein lies the biggest reason for game companies to start to explore a more sandbox/themepark approach. Sandbox in that the world around players can change and be changed by players actions. Themepark in that there is a lot of content based upon a sort of background story. Along with that, deminish the requirement to gain levels with with your xp. Do away with "leveling" altogether. I doubt any of this will ever happen but at least others are beginning to see that "endgame" is not what it is cracke up to be.

Let's party like it is 1863!

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

5/21/11 8:15:55 PM#102

It is about the journey not endgame. Endgame is so overrated just for the simple fact so many people make alts all the time. A perfect example is vanilla FFXI. The journey in that game was pretty great and your end game really was to beat Maat. Thats it. The game is so totally about reaching the end with your online pals instead of rushing to the end just for that raid content. 

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2395

5/21/11 8:18:36 PM#103

This thread examples a very good point i am always happy to mention, which is that DAOC is the finest mmorpg ever made to this date. Released before most people had computers or the interent connectiosn to play them.  (With the odd side effect of having the most effeciant network code of any mmorpg).  I was pondering going back to daoc (i have many times before), but i am a social player and the 1.7k total population at peak times is a bit too low for me. But it just too sad, that advertisment and popularity rule over quality.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  OtheK

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/08
Posts: 34

5/21/11 8:49:49 PM#104

yeah. absolutely you're not alone

  midmagic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 617

5/21/11 8:59:46 PM#105

The problem to me is fixed destitnation. Whether by game design or the playerbase "herd" mentality, hate having virtually no choice in what I'm going to do in any particular play session.

Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  User Deleted
5/21/11 11:28:49 PM#106

Couldnt agree with this article any more if I was to write it myself.  Thank you for taking the time to write such an elegant treatise on what makes MMO gaming fun for those who got involved with it back in its early days.


 


I to long for an Asherons Call style of gameplay to return to whgere it was about the journey, the hunt, and the friends you made along the way.


 


I want an MMO that forsakes an endgame for one that caters to a slow methodical and deleberate experience that creates the world for which I enjoy being in.  As it stands now every single MMO ive played in the last 3 years I get bored after 2 hours.  Give me back my marathon gaming sessions where the carrat at the end of the stick is a reward in and of itself.


  Aori

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 1824

5/22/11 2:04:55 AM#107

The only way i'll have fun in an mmo again is if the pvp, fort/castle sieges and raid bosses are open world.  Only way recognition, notoriety and respect will ever be brought back into an MMO. Without those i don't have much fun..


  User Deleted
5/22/11 2:19:46 AM#108

Almost everyone in agreement. Everyone I know agrees too. Yet the Industry still goes in direct opposition.

In fact almost  all other gameplay now funnels you into this endgame treadmill few like or want.

Almost all other gameplay is now diminished to inflate this treadmill endgame few like or want.

But it's not agenda driving it, it's consumer demand lol.

 

Anyways, good article.

Maybe purchasing some items from the mall might help you enjoy endgame better, since you've learned to accept microtrans:)

  Zorken

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/03
Posts: 53

5/22/11 2:33:41 AM#109

/sign

 

Just about all i think about mmo these days was in there.

Benjamin Franklin wrote the best quote to use for MMOs in development.
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

  Craywulf

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 17

5/22/11 4:40:34 AM#110

Get rid of leveling and endgame becomes a moot point.


Wisdom is conquered with patience.

  ormstunga

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/22/04
Posts: 752

stupid is as stupid does

5/22/11 5:19:06 AM#111

Yes thats pretty much what I thought about SWG... you didnt to corvette or DWB (at least not pre-cu) to improve gear or "stats". It was all comestic. Nobody would pvp or do anything really in mando armor because of the decay system. It was really hard to get, and you didnt reall want it to break. Stats werent that good either. So ppl didnt really do "endgame" in SWG, it was more of a "look at me wearing this cool looking armor". As such, nobody HAD to do "endgame" farm to stay competitive.

There were very few weapons per server that really impacted pvp (or pve) and they were used with extreme caution, also due to decay system.

  plaxidia

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/24/03
Posts: 171

5/22/11 5:35:34 AM#112

Originally posted by sinjin



OP you are actually very wrong.  SWG had Endgame, DAoC had endgame and so did EQ.  You better go read up and we used that term then as well.  I remember we would raid the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker... I can go on all day but I think you are just too much a rookie to the MMO genre so you made this assumption on your own without asking true old school vets from all of these games.  I have played em all and don't know of any without some form of endgame.  I have used that term since DAoC...



 


Her point isn't that there was no endgame in those MMO's.. Her point was that there was a hell of a journey to get there.. And I did play EQ and DAoC and they were fun and challenging from the begining.. There was no rush to end game.. Maybe you should read her article again and not pick out only the points you can use to belittle her and make yourself sound supierior. :) 


  User Deleted
5/22/11 5:37:02 AM#113
Originally posted by ormstunga

Yes thats pretty much what I thought about SWG... you didnt to corvette or DWB (at least not pre-cu) to improve gear or "stats". It was all comestic. Nobody would pvp or do anything really in mando armor because of the decay system. It was really hard to get, and you didnt reall want it to break. Stats werent that good either. So ppl didnt really do "endgame" in SWG, it was more of a "look at me wearing this cool looking armor". As such, nobody HAD to do "endgame" farm to stay competitive.

There were very few weapons per server that really impacted pvp (or pve) and they were used with extreme caution, also due to decay system.

 But check this out. Raids in swg were done by 60%+ of the playerbase. That's crazy high.

  goingwylde

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/05
Posts: 142

I am the WoW killer.

5/22/11 6:30:46 AM#114

Isn't it getting a little cliche to complain about endgame and people leveling too fast?  Its just like complaining about forced grouping, or pvp, or the grind.   It all comes down to play style.  These types of games have elements that are going to lend themselves to one play style or the other.   The good endgames will try to cater to more than one, but they usually do one the best, i.e. raids for WoW, economy for EvE, watching paint dry for LOTRO.  

Personally, yeah, I'd love to  play that game that has the perfect balance between PvE and PvP.  It's not gear-centric.  It has no perfect build.  It requires some skill but anyone can play.  It has a beautiful story, thriving economy, and a perfectly customizable avatar that looks completely diffrent from every one else in every way.  You can group, or not group, and the loot drops are always balanced and fair.  There's no lag, and the servers never go down.

Until UNOBTANIUM ONLINE comes out, MMORPGS are always going to suffer from these things.  You may have noticied it less in the good ol' days, but I think that was mainly because there were a lot less people around back then.  If WoW is the first game you've ever had a max level character in, how would you know what endgame was like back in the day?

  User Deleted
5/22/11 7:15:07 AM#115
Originally posted by goingwylde

Isn't it getting a little cliche to complain about endgame and people leveling too fast?  Its just like complaining about forced grouping, or pvp, or the grind.   It all comes down to play style.  These types of games have elements that are going to lend themselves to one play style or the other.   The good endgames will try to cater to more than one, but they usually do one the best, i.e. raids for WoW, economy for EvE, watching paint dry for LOTRO.  

Personally, yeah, I'd love to  play that game that has the perfect balance between PvE and PvP.  It's not gear-centric.  It has no perfect build.  It requires some skill but anyone can play.  It has a beautiful story, thriving economy, and a perfectly customizable avatar that looks completely diffrent from every one else in every way.  You can group, or not group, and the loot drops are always balanced and fair.  There's no lag, and the servers never go down.

Until UNOBTANIUM ONLINE comes out, MMORPGS are always going to suffer from these things.  You may have noticied it less in the good ol' days, but I think that was mainly because there were a lot less people around back then.  If WoW is the first game you've ever had a max level character in, how would you know what endgame was like back in the day?

 Treadmill gear grinds are what people are referring to. Using the extreme as a counter point is missing the point purposely.

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/22/11 7:28:24 AM#116
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
Originally posted by goingwylde

Isn't it getting a little cliche to complain about endgame and people leveling too fast?  Its just like complaining about forced grouping, or pvp, or the grind.   It all comes down to play style.  These types of games have elements that are going to lend themselves to one play style or the other.   The good endgames will try to cater to more than one, but they usually do one the best, i.e. raids for WoW, economy for EvE, watching paint dry for LOTRO.  

Personally, yeah, I'd love to  play that game that has the perfect balance between PvE and PvP.  It's not gear-centric.  It has no perfect build.  It requires some skill but anyone can play.  It has a beautiful story, thriving economy, and a perfectly customizable avatar that looks completely diffrent from every one else in every way.  You can group, or not group, and the loot drops are always balanced and fair.  There's no lag, and the servers never go down.

Until UNOBTANIUM ONLINE comes out, MMORPGS are always going to suffer from these things.  You may have noticied it less in the good ol' days, but I think that was mainly because there were a lot less people around back then.  If WoW is the first game you've ever had a max level character in, how would you know what endgame was like back in the day?

 Treadmill gear grinds are what people are referring to. Using the extreme as a counter point is missing the point purposely.

 

 

You know, early DAOC was the closest to your description I've ever seen, so it isn't as impossible as you make it out to be.

And back then it was anything but a treadmill gear grind......

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Lethality

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/06
Posts: 55

5/22/11 7:58:04 AM#117

There's a whole lot of whining in this post, without a point being made.


You make it sound like its an accident that "that's all there is to do" at endgame, when it's a very intentional design decision - to funnel players to the content that provides the clear path of progression.


This is a concept that is proven to work, and you'll see it in TOR, GW2 and any other AAA MMO currently on the block.


 

  Zinzan

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

5/22/11 8:06:01 AM#118

I'd like to know exactly what people want instead of the raid dungeons, gear grinds etc? It's very easy to slag a games design, but no-one ever offers a workable alternative.


Endgame is only ever going to be anything different from one day to the next if it's pvp, pve will always be repetitive until the game companies manage to come up with billions of alternative quests, exploration, achievement systems to cater to everyone and keep them playing. It's just not realistic.


Alternatives tried include the episode content style patches (such as STO), but these are played to death in a week and the baying crowds left demanding more, more, more! No way can any company produce weekly content patches that take a week to play through.


Then we get the in-game events where GM's take control of high level mobs, or they produce random invasions....DAoC tried this many years ago, it was a lot of fun first time, but after that it became an inconvenience more than anything else. Rift claimed to have invented this very, very old and flawed concept...they didn't and there is a reason no other mmo uses it....it's a flawed system that relies on the players wanting to become involved, often players just want to chill out, chat or craft, they DON'T like being forced to become involved these days.


DaoC's rvr was brilliant, 3 factions fighting over a dynamic world for control and supremecy. Why will this never happen again? Gamers have changed, the phrase "realm pride" is long gone, players are far more concerned with their own personal gain than the good of their realm. Think many would sit repairing a relic keep door for hours on end after defending it for several hours? No way, and whay would they when there are so many other fun alternatives in other mmo's.


TSW is the one im watching and have been for a while now.


Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  User Deleted
5/22/11 8:38:58 AM#119
Originally posted by Lethality

There's a whole lot of whining in this post, without a point being made.


You make it sound like its an accident that "that's all there is to do" at endgame, when it's a very intentional design decision - to funnel players to the content that provides the clear path of progression.


This is a concept that is proven to work, and you'll see it in TOR, GW2 and any other AAA MMO currently on the block.


 

 You're missing the point as well then. Everyone knows what it is. No one wants it.

Proven to work? Work at what? Customer sharing?

  AKASlaphappy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/06
Posts: 812

5/22/11 9:59:10 AM#120

I completely agree with the article, but I also see the fact that the end game tread mill of end game MMO design is not going to go away in most AAA MMOs. In the end that gear grind is the easiest and cheapest way to keep people addicted and playing your game for months on end. And this is what those big companies that make MMOs want; they want you to keep paying them $15 a month so they can become rich off of the residual income you are providing.


 


Look at it this way, Insurance companies spend thousands of man hours cold calling and interacting with customers to earn their business and the residual income that comes with it. While MMOs just add a new shiny, and the gamers that are into MMOs line up to pay the company and get the item, and they do not have to spend the time or money like the insurance industry to earn that income. So why would they change that, when they are making tons of residual income with so little effort (compared to other industries)?


 


In the end there will be some companies that try something different, but as long as that residual $15 across millions of gamers worldwide is there, companies are going to go with the easiest path to get that money. The gear grind and the allure of the new shiny right around the corner! For the gamers that do not play for the shiny we will just have to keep our eyes on games that are not in the mainstream to get our enjoyment. 

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