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News & Features Discussion  » General: This is Endgame, My Friend

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156 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/08
Posts: 42

5/20/11 4:36:41 PM#61

A great article that totally sums up how I feel about endgame. I never understood the rush to get to level cap. For me, the journey is paramount (hence the fact that I play LotRO). However,  I also revisited WoW post Cataclysm, and agree that the leveling is now WAY too fast.

Azeroth is such a beautifully realised creation, and it's a shame that you are propelled through it at such a vast rate of knots, that you can barely catch your breath. I think developers expect you to want to reach endgame and raid the days away ASAP. Also, it seems that you're almost universally looked down on by other players at level cap in their shiny new amour sets (until a new update distracts them by dropping the next proverbial carrot-on-a-stick in front of their eyes).

For those that enjoy that style of content, I say "fair play to you. If that's the way you want to enjoy your endgame, have a blast!!". I just don't see why the only "alternative" has to be leveling "alternatives" (in LotRO i'm on Alt No. 10 BTW!).  

On the subject of LotRO, It's worrying that Turbine seems to be following Blizzards model of producting increasingly engame-centric content (Cataclysm, not withstanding). I don't have any issue when updates makes the game "longer" (ie new zones, level cap increase etc.), but at the moment all they seem to do is to make the endgame content "wider" (most of which becomes almost totally obsolete as soon as the level cap is moved again - "Rift, anyone"?). I just wish Turbine would devoted more time to making the whole journey wider. Let's have new low and mid-level zones, alternative paths to explore (literally and figuratively), and a slower-paced, leveling experience full of memorable moments worth savoring.

Why must us reluctant Alt-oholics put up with being the Raiders down-trodden and forgotten half-brother? I think there are far more of us than the developers realise, it's just that we are more discerning and not placated by shiny new baubles du jour!


Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 16

5/20/11 4:48:24 PM#62

I wonder how much the mentality is the responsability of the designers, and how much is the culture of the players?  WoW is my first real MMO experience, but I haven't felt penalized in any way for taking my time leveling (I'm only level 50 after 5 months).  I try out dungeons, do some quests, do some crafting, whatever tickles my fancy for the day.  If there is any pressure in the design of the game to get to level cap and start raiding, I haven't felt it. 

I see something similar with people who try to find a perfect build for their character class.  I am enjoying reading the descriptions of each skill and carefully choosing which nodes of my tree to max out.  I really enjoy that facet of the game, and don't let cultural pressure in or out of game take that enjoyment away from me.

My take on it is that some of the end game activites were developed to keep people subscribed even after the leveling content ran out.  Now that there are 85 levels and so many zones to work through, they'll keep getting ym money for a good long while before I start raiding :P


Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 814

5/20/11 4:59:43 PM#63

You most certainly are not alone. WoW was my first MMO and I just never got what was supposedly so great about the 'endgame'. Like you I ended up just leveling other characters.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

5/20/11 5:36:35 PM#64

What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?


Also, you can turn your XP off in some games to prolong the journey. I used to do that in WoW, after they increaded the leveling speed, so I could actually enjoy some of the gear and enchants I had acquired. Not like I was meeting anyone new in the dungeon finder that I had to keep up with.

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Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 958

Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. -Kahlil Gibran

5/20/11 5:42:31 PM#65
Originally posted by Palebane

What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?

I'm sure it'd appeal to the people who raid now, but it would more or less lose everyone who currently either rolls alts or leaves once they hit the cap. Raiding just isn't for everyone.  Frankly, I'd like to see more specialization in MMOs: all raiding, all pvp, all solo, all roleplay, whatever. Focus on a niche and do it to perfection. Current MMOs try so hard to be everything to everybody that the only thing they manage to do spectacularly is disappoint.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

5/20/11 5:49:39 PM#66


Originally posted by Jenuviel

Originally posted by Palebane

What if developers did it backwards so that raiding was the leveling process and end game was more solo-oriented?

I'm sure it'd appeal to the people who raid now, but it would more or less lose everyone who currently either rolls alts or leaves once they hit the cap. Raiding just isn't for everyone.  Frankly, I'd like to see more specialization in MMOs, though: all raiding, all pvp, all solo, all roleplay, whatever. Focus on a niche and do it to perfection. Current MMOs try so hard to be everything to everybody that the only thing they manage to do spectacularly is disappoint.


It wouldn't have to be raiding as we know it in the popular games right now. It could be more of a banding together to kill harder monsters (or players).  Everyone would be doing it.  The journey would always be there, for everyone; Less segregation and selectiveness. Solo play would have to be much different as well, obviously.


A lot of players, myself included, would likely enjoy raiding more if it wasn't so strict and serious. I enjoyed the old 40 man raids and the world bosses with 100s of players participating the most (minus the lag of course). It isn't necessarily the challenge or the people we're tired of as much as the treadmill sensation, in my opinion.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2423

5/20/11 6:28:48 PM#67

I hate end game, raiding and repeating quests a million times.

That's why I'm looking forward to SWTOR so much, I'm interested in all the storylines.


I really hope some developer finds a way to make a more interesting end game, if they don't, I'll probably level a few alts and quit their game.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/20/11 6:52:21 PM#68

I'm with the author on dungeons and raids. I could take them or leave them while I'm leveling or at end game. Rift does a pretty good job of not being a dungeons/raid game until you get to 50, but at 50 that's the end game. They are slow adding little things here and there that aren't raids, but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to take Rift truly beyond the current "Level to Max and Raid" thing. At this point, I think even some sort of of "endgame" PvP would be a blessing to a lot of people.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1056

"" "" "" ""

5/20/11 8:30:00 PM#69

Idk how I feel about this. Mixed feelings really. There have been games where I took my time enjoyed the journey, had a great journey, and then finally delved into endgame. A few times I've lost myself in endgame having scheduled events, 3, 4, or even 5 nights a week. I felt like I was accomplishing something but ultimately it would become fleeting. Once you've killed a certian endgame mob or gone through a dungeon for the 50th or even the 100th time it's nowhere near as cool.

Then when that new content comes out you rush to it, it's amazing you're heart is beating and you feel so great when you kill that insane creature. Then it only takes 10 times before you're bored, but you still have to do it 50 times to get what you need. So I don't do it anymore, but at the same time it was some of the most fun I've ever had in gaming.

So I think everyone should do it once if they want to consider themselves a true MMO player but not for too long or you become and angry anti-social psychopath and will be lost from real society forever.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8152

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

5/20/11 8:55:42 PM#70

I SO agree with the article!

"For one thing, I’m totally and utterly not item-motivated, so going into dungeons to get shinies doesn’t fire me up. Planning to do dungeons so I can get the gear to do more dungeons – meh. Not my thing."

This. I feel exactly like that too. And as I scan through this thread, it seems a lot of people dislike gear grind and raids as endgame. I recall I made a poll here and a vast majority of people voted, they were NOT interesting in endgame whatsoever. So if this is, I wonder why every MMO copies this terrible WOW formula?

I just today hit lv 50 with Rift (which I continued because 2 friends joined), but now? It's all gear grind in instance dungeons or gear grind in PVP arenas. Both things I don't like very much. Why is there today such an emphasis on endgame? Esp. when apparently it is not very popular actually.

When I am interested in is: getting new levels & new powers, getting into new zones to explore, furthering story. Gear for me is just a means to an goal, not a goal I am interested in by itself. I am usually not a WOW basher, but in this case WOW really introduced a terrible thing to MMOs with the endless grind endgame. I so loathe that.

People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 382

5/20/11 11:20:53 PM#71

Agree 100%!

Very good and well said, hope developer's see this and take note.


Cause the dead cow of chasing gear and running dungeons/raiding for endgame is not something I will ever bother with again in the mmo I play.

Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS
Playing: Sims 4, Diablo3, TSW & LoTRO
Waiting on: Everquest Next, BlackDesert, Camelot Unchained & Pathfinder Online!
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Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

5/20/11 11:41:02 PM#72

I think that the gear grind appeals most to the achiever type of MMO gamer, to use Bartle's model. It appeals to epeen/pride, and your achievements ingame are nicely translated into new gear shinies.


There's also the question, 'what else?' if you hit level cap. Questing has a limited value since they end, or to put it in pure figures: questing/leveling can keep a player busy and entertained for like 150-200 hours per character, while a player spends thousands of hours in an MMORPG on average. Doing dungeons and raids can keep players entertained for many more hundreds of hours of gameplay, especially since it's PvE content that is repeatable.

If you remove that, then what can keep a player who isn't interested in PvP entertained? Quest content sure won't suffice, since it's not repeatable for one, and only a company with the amount of budget on top AAA level (like Blizzard) could keep spurning out copious amounts of quest content that has more entertainment value in it than just the same old 'kill 10 rats, fetch this and that' content to grind away.


So, in short you need something that could replace raids as non-PvE content that offers enough entertainment value for many hundreds of hours. There are of course ways, like deep crafting or maybe GW2's Dynamic Events, but the question is whether those other means for PvE content will appeal to the achiever type of MMO gamer as much as raid content will.


Or, another way of looking at it, maybe it's time that designers will nourish the other Bartle types of MMO gamers more instead of purely the achiever or killer types. Maybe it's time that explorers and socializers will get their spot in the sunlight, in a larger amount and more various ways than they have been in MMO's of the last 5-7 years.

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Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 9

5/21/11 12:41:42 AM#73

Totally agree, Being one of the Old Table top RPG players (Chainmail anyone?) I think the point alot of you are making is That games today are half games. What I mean is were is the spontaneous moments. Wheres the individuality ? Why am I getting the gear Again ? What threat is present that requires me to train this hard. Who is the ultimate Bad guy/gal/it that is causing this mess ?

If the sole goal of a game is to get the best gear to kill other players, this is a fail concept. Players do not build bonds or friendships killing one another, this most times breeds contempt for other players. Bonds are built barely surviving an encounter. This is what is lost in modern gaming. Arming and equiping a bunch of people to engage in human cock fighting is only entertaing to those in the stands.

The 2 reasons they do it and will not change is

It's cheap

Players will pay to cheat and be the best. The Cash shop threw out all hope for a better game.

Games with rich Lore, Engaging Plotlines and vibrant stories are a thing of the past. Sadly till the players themselves demand better in a unified movement. Game Dev's will keep regurgitating out the same old pigs with a differant shade of lipstick.



Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

5/21/11 12:58:08 AM#74

Originally posted by SignusM

Wha? No. WoW's endgame is far more alienating than most end game. It's end game is pretty much the same as EverQuests, and that is, bad.

DAoC's end game was balanced so well that anyone could jump into any raid, actually contribute something, and have a shot at the loot, without being in an "epic raider guild". And then there was RvR..



If the OP had played DAOC in its prime, at the very least, this article about EQ / WoW / Rift style endgames would be titled, "This is not endgame, my friend."


To which, I would agree. Endgames that revolve entirely around raiding instances ad nauseum for gear aren't endgames.  Not compared to the highly optional PvE raids, soloable lv.50 zones, and crafting of DAOC that merely helped tie RvR together into a cohesive whole that was more than the sum of its parts.


A lot of people also seem to forget that in DAOC's first year of its existence, it was very much about the journey too.  PvE was solid, grouping was fun but not mandatory, every zone was full of players, and it wasn't until Mythic started catering heavily to people who just wanted to race to endgame, at the expense of keeping the leveling game alive, that it became all about endgame.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.


Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3584

5/21/11 12:58:47 AM#75

Im not that dead set against raiding or dungeons as endgame. But I would like to see additional features you can enjoy at lvl cap.

My problem with WoW's implementation of raiding is the set path and the loot distribution. You do the same raid over and over untill you have the gear to do next raid over and over untill you have the gear to do..etc. The set path is too limited and therefore too boring for me. Its just silly the way they with every expansion, come up with higher stats, higher lvl cap , just so the players have to start the EXACT same treadmill again. This whole gear and stats inflation simply became ridiculous.

I had the same problem as the OP, in that I stopped playing not long after reaching lvl cap in some of those games. Or just before endgame in the case of EQ2. But that was also because its so obviously about tiers in those games. Every tier is just a rehash of the last one. The whole world in those games is divided into tiers and that just gets boring for me quite fast.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 667

5/21/11 1:07:41 AM#76

Here's to AC , still my favorite game I ever played, yet I never reached level 126 , always wanted to just for the show.


But I never had so much fun as I did on the beaches of eastham.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/05
Posts: 48

5/21/11 1:31:04 AM#77

utterly /signed.

same over here, really.

  User Deleted
5/21/11 1:48:46 AM#78


Where did MMORPG design go so wrong?


Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/11
Posts: 18

5/21/11 4:47:57 AM#79

Excellent article. That sums up pretty much everything I would say, especially about the gear/ time over skill.

Here's an idea. How about lvl cap meaning that you can start a guild with a set number of players of specific lvls and a defined hierarchical structure. Then there can be meaningful PvP guild wars to take over parts of the map without interfering with solo/small group content. If some clever person could figure out how to manage the lvls of the individual characters and the hierarchical structure of the guild it could work like a real military where a lvl up means a promotion and being moved to a different guild/unit.

sorry, got carried away.


Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 874

Make worlds not stories

5/21/11 5:41:31 AM#80

About WoW I am in the same boat, the best parts of WoW is (or was) levelling up, hence the eight max levels I have. Don't get me wrong I have had a top char for years, done every raid target. I hunted the million badges and points, and when you get into the rush it is slightly rewarding - But you need to be able to switch off reasoning, because when you start to think about it, it is boring and only requires patience. You start doing calculations about how many hours/days/raids/runs/dailys you have to do to get to the next step/gear/whatever, and this hunt shadows the fact that its become a techincal whack a mole game.


I have several lvl max chars I dropped at the instant I hit max and made them mules. I know quite a few people who regularily level a char to max and delete it for a re-go. For me the levelling part of WoW was a real mmorpg, and the endgame is all about refining your char with gear and calculations of NUMBERS and there is no adventure build into that.


How I see WoW is a defined grind with little room for surprices, and while comming back from work tiered the streamlines no-brainer is sometimes just what you need. Your rewards (gear) are pretty much 1 to 1 with the efford (time) you put in, so player skill is all about reading the thoerycrafts and click on the "best gear, rotation, talent list" and you are off to tap your keyboard in rapic succession.


Especially the point/badge farming thing is a bad way to get gear in a WoW, it reduces the game to a shop where you pay with life-hours to get gear (which will most likely be obsolete after 3 months as it goes at the moment with WoW). WoW was once a mmorpg, but I can't say what it is now.. single player action game in a shared world ? And that is some of the things that makes us love and hate WoW and all its unfluences. WotLK was annoying with the badge runs and few raiding instance but I think I was just so much into the grind my mind had swtiched off, then Cataclysm came and thank you for that Blizzard, you made me see clearly what I don't want in a so-called mmorpg.

"I am my connectome"

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