Originally posted by Ceridith

...

Because the concept of endgame has never been a required 'feature' for an MMO. Several pre-WoW MMOs did not even have a solid level cap, let alone a concept of endgame.

Again, endgame is not a requirement for an MMO. The current industry trend is to throw in a level cap and endgame simply because the eleven and a half million pound gorilla in the room has it.

The truth is MMOs before WOW were either sandbox (which as I said my post is not about and I wholly agree that MMOs should be more sandboxy virtual worlds) or very bluntly put they were so grindy that people din't manage to reach the cap by the time the paradigm changed and WOW arrived.

Originally posted by stayghost

Originally posted by sanicek

I can't believe so many people are in blind agreement. If you don't like end game and dungeons do not interest you, why do you even play MMOs? From PVE perspective, dungeons and in particular engame raids are THE concepts around which MMOs revolve.

 

I would respectfully disagree with you. The mmoRPG concept was created for social interaction and freedom within a role playing environment. The genre took a turn for a more palatable and easy to assimilate format of linnear level progression akin to a console adventure game but multiplayer on a massive scale. Both are valid formats but the fans of the original premis of the genre are under served right now.

 

I think this highlights a fundamental difference in the fanbase of these games predicated on what games they cut their teeth on. And with such vocal dissention from the OG's about the current state of things you would hope some one would be able to step up to the plate. Who knows - maybe TITAN is a sandbox? Maybe EA will ressurect UO2/UO:X?

I realize and agree with this, maybe I should have rather said "why do you even play theme-park MMOs". Sanboxes are a different kind of beast altogether and nothing would please me more than high quality sandbox MMO (that doesn't have EVE's combat system).

However as far as theme-park MMOs go, I feel the end game concept is valid and the MMO factor is best realized in it for the reasons I already stated in my post.

Originally posted by sinjin

OP you are actually very wrong.  SWG had Endgame, DAoC had endgame and so did EQ.  You better go read up and we used that term then as well.  I remember we would raid the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker... I can go on all day but I think you are just too much a rookie to the MMO genre so you made this assumption on your own without asking true old school vets from all of these games.  I have played em all and don't know of any without some form of endgame.  I have used that term since DAoC...

 

Whether or not her examples are valid is irrelevant, her overall point is still very valid and right on target.

Originally posted by sanicek

Originally posted by Ceridith

...

Because the concept of endgame has never been a required 'feature' for an MMO. Several pre-WoW MMOs did not even have a solid level cap, let alone a concept of endgame.

Again, endgame is not a requirement for an MMO. The current industry trend is to throw in a level cap and endgame simply because the eleven and a half million pound gorilla in the room has it.

 

The truth is MMOs before WOW were either sandbox (which as I said my post is not about and I wholly agree that MMOs should be more sandboxy virtual worlds) or very bluntly put they were so grindy that people din't manage to reach the cap by the time the paradigm changed and WOW arrived.

Ever heard of a game called Dark Age of Camelot?

Originally posted by sanicek

Originally posted by Ceridith

...

Because the concept of endgame has never been a required 'feature' for an MMO. Several pre-WoW MMOs did not even have a solid level cap, let alone a concept of endgame.

Again, endgame is not a requirement for an MMO. The current industry trend is to throw in a level cap and endgame simply because the eleven and a half million pound gorilla in the room has it.

 

The truth is MMOs before WOW were either sandbox (which as I said my post is not about and I wholly agree that MMOs should be more sandboxy virtual worlds) or very bluntly put they were so grindy that people din't manage to reach the cap by the time the paradigm changed and WOW arrived.

This doesn't change that there was no endgame. In both examples as well, the power curve of players was much flatter. Meaning, being several levels lower than another player did not necessarily make you useless when compared to a higher level player. Sure you were better if you were higher level, but being lower didn't lock you out of being able to meaningfully assist higher level players, or in the case ofa crafter, from producing items that were still needed by higher level players.

WoW's endgame is a cycle of zero sum progression. Every single content patch, the previous top level gear becomes laughably easy to obtain through zerging heroic dugneons. No matter how much effort and time you sink into getting the best gear for your character in WoW today, it's pretty much gueranteed that next major content patch when the next tier of raid is released, most of that same gear will be ridiculously easy to obtain, and a tier after that will be completely useless.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather play an MMO with the old system where it takes years to max out. At least with those systems, being high level actually means something since it's not suddenly made irrelevant next content patch, and you also don't feel useless if you're not max level.

Originally posted by Garvon3

 

Ever heard of a game called Dark Age of Camelot?

You mean the game with end game consisting of RVR PVP?

Originally posted by sanicek

I can't believe so many people are in blind agreement. If you don't like end game and dungeons do not interest you, why do you even play (Edit:) theme-park MMOs? From PVE perspective, dungeons and in particular engame raids are THE concepts around which MMOs revolve. Questing is essentially a single player non challenging gameplay. Why would I want to do that in an MMO, where the storytelling is super-boring and any outcomes irrelevant? If I want that kind of experience, I'll fire some awesome single player RPG where the storytelling, quests and progress are actually entertaining and the results affect the world with truly epic proportions.

Cooperative PVE is the thing I expect (and require) from my MMOs, as mentioned above, bland irrelevant and in vast majority single player quests are concepts better served elsewhere ( we will see how Bioware will solve this dilemma). Only in MMOs can you experience cooperative group play that requires constant cooperation of the whole group to overcome fights with interesting mechanics. I'm going to focus on WOW here, because it best illustrates the endgame concept and is my game of choice. All my characters in WOW except the 1st one were leveled up almost purely from running dungeons (and since the XP change sometimes via PVP). And those dungeons and raids are what keeps me subscribed to WOW (belive me, I tried many many other MMOs), because I haven't seen those kinds of instances anywhere else (DDO and LOTRO was kinda nice, but WOW still wins by huge margin) . Every clone outh there replicates the super-boring quest and world part and utterly fails to make interesting dungeons with interesting boss fights.

For the PVP folk, it's different in every game, many are PVP oriented with RVR etc, where obviously level cap levels the playing field. In WOW you have battlegrounds and arenas, which are valid end-game options, this time what shines is the balance, again group cooperation (as opposed to mindless zerg in many games), and super fluid combat.

 From my rant you may think that I'm some kind of WOW fanboy, while in fact that is not true. I realize the game has many flaws and I would love to start playing something something different. I tried DDO, LOTRO, WAR, AOC, COX, Aion, Vanguard and plenthora of lesser MMOs, but none of them retained my interest exactly because they lacked good dungeon content (or equivalent coordinated PVE experience) and solid end game content based on that.

 *This post does not include sandboxes, as was said by mrcalhou above, there the whole game is endgame, especially because there is no set goal and player actions affect environment. Sadly the current crop does not interest due to lack of quality or game mechanics I can't stomach. Still waiting for "EVE with twitch combat" kind of game.

Negative, DAOC was a theme park styled MMO with and end game no less however it played very differently than the modern MMO's of today.

There is no law that says a theme park MMO's end game has to consist of dungeon raiding and gear grinds, that's a notion ground into most gamers heads today because they don't realize there really were and can still be alternatives, and who knows, they actually might enjoy a change.

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by uncletoma

Seems that mostry people here never played DAoC: excellent and funny endgame. A lot of fun on frontiers, killing hibs and migs.

Isn't DaoC mostly about PVP though?  I personally don't consider that endgame as most games, like WoW, you can do it as you level and it doesn't change through the levels except by giving you different objectives or new maps.  Not saying there aren't people who only PVP at endgame, just that most MMORPGs are either built with a PVP endgame in mind or a PVE endgame in mind.  Like comparing Darkfall to WoW.  Both have PVE, both have PVP but you and I both know which gamer caters to who.

So DaoC would be in the Darkfall column while this article talks more about PVE endgame in games like WoW and Lotro.

Not only is that not remotely close to how PvP works in the majority of real MMOs (it seems you've never played a game with worthwhile PvP if you're talking about maps and objectives) but DAoC wasn't purely a PvP title. It had some of the best raiding to be found in the MMO sphere, and still does. The encounters and raids in DAoC are far beyond anything I've seen in WoW's little 8 main "raids".  200 man dragon raids were something epic to see.

DAoC is a great example of a game that is properly designed to balance crafting, PvP, and PvE all in one without diminishing the value of any of them. The PvP was the standout feature of course because at that point no one had managed to do PvP on that scale (and still haven't, except for maybe Darkfall) but there was raiding for those who enjoyed it and the PvP didn't mess with the PvE players.

And yes, PvP is the best kind of end game, because it's constant generated by PLAYERS therefore, constantly changing and almost always fresh and interesting. If you think PvP only consists of those weird FPS like CTF rounds in WoW... you need to look up some other MMOs :P

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by sanicek
 

Negative, DAOC was a theme park styled MMO with and end game no less however it played very differently than the modern MMO's of today.

There is no law that says a theme park MMO's end game has to consist of dungeon raiding and gear grinds, that's a notion ground into most gamers heads today because they don't realize there really were and can still be alternatives, and who knows, they actually might enjoy a change.

Most people think that themepark means WoW clone. This is not the case, sadly most refuse to believe it.

Endgame is such a horrible concept.  I always hated the term.  There should be no endgame.  The MMO market is lost to all the cookie cutter games.  To be honest I dont think it will recover anytime soon.  It is much easier to pump out cookie cutter rapid application development mmo's where the expected shelf life is no more than 6 months and then claim its a success. 

Originally posted by sanicek

Originally posted by Garvon3

 

Ever heard of a game called Dark Age of Camelot?

You mean the game with end game consisting of RVR PVP?

The point was that it wasn't a sandbox game nor was it so grindy that "no one ever reached the level cap". And no, the end game consisted of crafting, raiding, RvR, or collecting. It was a well made MMO that actually balanced different play styles into of being a one trick pony forcing the devs to desperately raise the level cap and churn out new "content" like most WoW clones. It's hard to believe in this day and age, I know.

Originally posted by Ceridith
*snip*

No matter how much effort and time you sink into getting the best gear for your character in WoW today, it's pretty much gueranteed that next major content patch when the next tier of raid is released, most of that same gear will be ridiculously easy to obtain, and a tier after that will be completely useless.

 

The dreaded gear nerf.  Also on expansion pack releases.  I thought it was exceptionally bad with CATA... into a new zone with a fully epic toon and could barely even handle mobs that should have been fairly easy.  Throw them all away and buy AH greens.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by sanicek

Originally posted by Garvon3

 

Ever heard of a game called Dark Age of Camelot?

You mean the game with end game consisting of RVR PVP?

The point was that it wasn't a sandbox game nor was it so grindy that "no one ever reached the level cap". And no, the end game consisted of crafting, raiding, RvR, or collecting. It was a well made MMO that actually balanced different play styles into of being a one trick pony forcing the devs to desperately raise the level cap and churn out new "content" like most WoW clones. It's hard to believe in this day and age, I know.

But it had an end-game different from the (intended) leveling process, correct? It may have been different than WOWs raiding or small team PVP, but I never said it's the only way. But the issue is about general end game phase which I believe can be clearly identified in DAoC.

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

Originally posted by Ceridith
*snip*

No matter how much effort and time you sink into getting the best gear for your character in WoW today, it's pretty much gueranteed that next major content patch when the next tier of raid is released, most of that same gear will be ridiculously easy to obtain, and a tier after that will be completely useless.

 

The dreaded gear nerf.  Also on expansion pack releases.  I thought it was exceptionally bad with CATA... into a new zone with a fully epic toon and could barely even handle mobs that should have been fairly easy.  Throw them all away and buy AH greens.

Exactly.

To me it pretty much became a question of "what's the point?"

A static unchanging world where anything I do has zero impact, because everything is phased, instanced, or resets 5 minutes after I do it. Any progression spent countless hours obtaining in either level or gear is quickly trivialized and obtainable with a fraction of the effort every time an expansion or content patch hits.

This is why endgame is a terrible design concept. When you make it so only the top matters, it becomes self defeating because every time you bump the top up, what used to be the top suddenly becomes irrelevant... so why even bother busting your ass trying to get to the top, when you'll be exactly where you were in a few months time?

Endgame is another MMORPG oxymoron therms that WoW made common. In MMORPGs you are supposed to live in the world and endgame would be the deletion of your character, which is a bad thing.

But with WoW endgame became what everyone sought for and leveling was just a path to get there. Hence why we got all these junk, super casual games where they make the leveling process as quick as possible so you can reach the mythical end game.

It is sad what this genre has come to...

No, Isabelle, you're not alone. We've been kicking and screaming, (and getting warned and banned  ) on these and other forums for years about this topic. Game companies, the few that read these type forums, either 1) don't care or 2) anyone who gets that concept of journey not destination is in upper management.

I think its a mixture of both. Those guys/gals that played table-top RPGs before circa 1997 understood. That's why you saw what you saw in AC and UO. They tried to build "worlds" and not just games that you could get to the end fast and "win". Those people from back then, I'm afraid, are in the upper eschelons of companies now and don't have as much, if any, creative input. THey have to focus on bottom lines now instead of the bottom of a dungeon.

So now we have people in position (creatively) who grew up getting everything "fast" and "accessible" and who come from an environment where everyone gets a trophy for participating. Most have probably never experienced a true TPK (Total Party Kill) where the only answer was "Sorry, you failed, role another character".

Which is another point. I think many of us older (and certainly a few younger) gamers understood and accepted that heroes could/can die. That's not something engrained in many of the younger gamers IMHO. "Heroes always win, they always save the day and my character is a hero because the game box tells me so". *shrugs*

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Originally posted by Khalathwyr
No, Isabelle, you're not alone. We've been kicking and screaming, (and getting warned and banned  ) on these and other forums for years about this topic. Game companies, the few that read these type forums, either 1) don't care or 2) anyone who gets that concept of journey not destination is in upper management.
 
I think its a mixture of both. Those guys/gals that played table-top RPGs before circa 1997 understood. That's why you saw what you saw in AC and UO. They tried to build "worlds" and not just games that you could get to the end fast and "win". Those people from back then, I'm afraid, are in the upper eschelons of companies now and don't have as much, if any, creative input. THey have to focus on bottom lines now instead of the bottom of a dungeon.
 
So now we have people in position (creatively) who grew up getting everything "fast" and "accessible" and who come from an environment where everyone gets a trophy for participating. Most have probably never experienced a true TPK (Total Party Kill) where the only answer was "Sorry, you failed, role another character".
 
Which is another point. I think many of us older (and certainly a few younger) gamers understood and accepted that heroes could/can die. That's not something engrained in many of the younger gamers IMHO. "Heroes always win, they always save the day and my character is a hero because the game box tells me so". *shrugs*

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I am glad someone else sees the decline of proper Tabletop RPG designs in games these days...
I feel like the RPG (MMO Or otherwise) is slowly transforming into a horrible, horrible, bland creature. All the great things about RPGs are being lost. For one: Roleplaying. So many games are singular-tracked linear movement from one story point to the next. Even games that are open world usually have restrictive class options. I still play DDO occasionally if nothing else because it's one of the few games where you can really make a custom character due to the class-combining of 3.0/.5.

I'm only 21, but I've played a ton of great old school RPGs and Tabletop, and I hope this trend of "Mainstream" RPGs dies a quick death...

Edit: And Death "penalties" are laughable in most MMO's. Mostly its just a couple coins that you will make back in 10 mins. Now, I'm against EXP loss for just a random death since that promotes grinding, but death should be something you REALLY want to avoid, not just a minor speed bump. I think the problem lies with MMO's singleminded focus on COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT always. Aside from crafting, which will almost invariably be to promote more combat, most MMO's have nothing else going for them. If your lucky you might get some player housing but... meh.

I want real adventure! A sense of discovery, puzzles, lockpicking, traps, unmarked side quests! I want to find items besides "Armor Piece Tier 3" that just make me marginally better at what I already do! I want to find a Decanter of Endeless water that seems useless until you happen upon a firefield you wouldn't normally be able to cross.

Anyway, more games need to take cues from Dungeons & Dragons, Online and Table, and other real RPGs.

I totally agree, I have no interest in a game that allows you to hit max level within a month, or even weeks.  I'm not saying I'm all about grind either -- but give us something to do along the way.  When I started AC the devs said people may never hit the max level.  Of course they were wrong -- but it took a long time.  So you weren't worried about hitting max level, that meant you just went out and played.  XP'd some, grouped some, quested some, raised your jump so you could make it to the roof tops in Eastham or line the whole place with so many torches that the devs changed the item decay time...  For me a game starts at level one and when /  if I hit max level I usually reroll.  I like swimming forward, not treading water.

Originally posted by BarCrow

Agreed. What happened to the journey?. I logged into SWG again and found myself enjoying running around doing nothing . Just roaming about the desert sands of Tatooine...finding giant dragons and the odd traveller npc or player.

It's been taken over by the easy-mode casual market. Personally--with the current state of MMORPGs--Minecraft is the only thing that satisfies me. That, and Morrowind and/or Oblivion.

Originally posted by mbd1968

Originally posted by Drakiis

And now you finally understand the truth about pure pve game play, and to a lesser extent themeparks as a whole. This is how pvpers are born, from the ashes of boredom, to counter end game repitition, because nothing in pvp is scripted, nothing is repetitive, it's not about shinies, merit badges, or high score. It's about respect and recognition of skill, for your guild pride, for your own virtual immortality.



Welcome to the real game.

Yeah, whatever.

 

It is too easy to just say 'yeah, whatever'. Because PVP does give you the element of suprise. Nothing is scripted. I like both sides (PVP and PVE), but you need both developed in a clever way to create a long lasting game. For some reason, that is quite the hazzle for most developers these days.