Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Nazgol

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

The concept of letting players fill a wider range of roles is a positive..  BUT... the simple fact that they stick to a system where players HAVE to fit pre-determined group roles is not good.

 

Let's move past the holy trinity concept.  It provided a good starting point for game design a decade ago, but we need to start moving on to newer and better concepts.  I don't want to hear anymore about group roles and archetypes....

 

 

 I always find it odd that people complain about roles. Roles bring order from chaos and even games that claim they have no trinity you know the players will just assign roles to group members.

 

Having role's is a good thing. However the Holy Trinity is NOT the only way to break down roles..... that particular implimentation of roles is getting beyond tired by now.

 

agree 100%

One of the issues is that people are so conditioned to use the strict trinity role system that people can't conceive of another way. Take a clue from real life and try to impliment that into a game. Going along with the player roles is the fact that npc AI in almost all mmos are beyond stupid. We have over 20 years of playing and developing these games and nobody can or wants to improve that? Halo has better enemy AI than every mmo in existence. How are these two connected? Having better AI will eliminate the classic trinity setup thereby forcing players to change their habit. I just wish some developers would have some balls to change it up.

I don't see how better AI will change the need or want, for class roles. When you are in any squad based game that revolves around specific classes, it doesn't matter what the AI is like.  In FPS games this is different because most FPS games.. well...

1) Require some kind of rudimentary skill that is somewhat a handicap that most MMOs don't use as they have auto attack. (even GW2 only uses a medium in that some attacks are positional, but many appear to still use the same targeting,  as does DCUO,  TERA is a little different, but that will not be spoken about here)

 

2) Rarely have the need for healing as almost all FPS games are arena based,  and usually have time limits imposed. 

 

In the end, roles are a good thing, and removing them won't make combat any better necessarily.   I'm one for faster paced, skill based combat,  and I like playing hybrid roles because - to me - being able to do a little of everything is more important then focusing on any one thing.  Many times people CHOOSE to force themselves into the farthest role they can go.  

 

For instance,  DCUO people always had a choice of DPS or a secondary role of control, healing, or tanking.   Everyone chose either one or the other and spec'd fully into it,  but skillfully I usually played a DPS character that had enough heals for secondary support which kept both me and others alive while dealing more damage than healers ever could.  Often times that would be enough to support those that needed it but not enough to be dedicated to doing ONLY DPS, or ONLY healing.

 

What I'm trying ot say by this, is, sure a game like TOR will have defined roles, but that doesn't mean people HAVE to use these defined roles,  its that people will CHOOSE to use these defined roles.   AI won't change this.

What I think he's trying to say, is that the average AI of NPCs in MMORPGs is so... braindead... that it can be handled by a group of five persons of which the damage dealers share one role, DPS, with very little variation between them. The only challenge can be found in their high health total and/or high damage/healing output A more advanced AI would not be fooled by a group using the Tank'n'spank formula, and would swiftly send them back to Wipeville.

Originally posted by Alot

 

What I think he's trying to say, is that the average AI of NPCs in MMORPGs is so... braindead... that it can be handled by a group of five persons of which the damage dealers share one role, DPS, with very little variation between them. The only challenge can be found in their high health total and/or high damage/healing output A more advanced AI would not be fooled by a group using the Tank'n'spank formula, and would swiftly send them back to Wipeville.

Hmm, while I might be able to see that,  I think it would only require better tanking abilities. (maybe not "better" per se,  but , "different", to compensate)   I do feel that the majority of AI is braindead for MMOs,  but I think better AI could also breed better use of classes too.  I'm all for better AI,  I just can't see how changing the AI would force a change in the need for  classes. 

I really can't think of a formula for a specific mob that would remove the class restriction.   I think that would rely more on the type of combat rather than AI.  

Originally posted by Alot

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by arenasb

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Nazgol

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

The concept of letting players fill a wider range of roles is a positive..  BUT... the simple fact that they stick to a system where players HAVE to fit pre-determined group roles is not good.

 

Let's move past the holy trinity concept.  It provided a good starting point for game design a decade ago, but we need to start moving on to newer and better concepts.  I don't want to hear anymore about group roles and archetypes....

 

 

 I always find it odd that people complain about roles. Roles bring order from chaos and even games that claim they have no trinity you know the players will just assign roles to group members.

 

Having role's is a good thing. However the Holy Trinity is NOT the only way to break down roles..... that particular implimentation of roles is getting beyond tired by now.

 

agree 100%

One of the issues is that people are so conditioned to use the strict trinity role system that people can't conceive of another way. Take a clue from real life and try to impliment that into a game. Going along with the player roles is the fact that npc AI in almost all mmos are beyond stupid. We have over 20 years of playing and developing these games and nobody can or wants to improve that? Halo has better enemy AI than every mmo in existence. How are these two connected? Having better AI will eliminate the classic trinity setup thereby forcing players to change their habit. I just wish some developers would have some balls to change it up.

I don't see how better AI will change the need or want, for class roles. When you are in any squad based game that revolves around specific classes, it doesn't matter what the AI is like.  In FPS games this is different because most FPS games.. well...

1) Require some kind of rudimentary skill that is somewhat a handicap that most MMOs don't use as they have auto attack. (even GW2 only uses a medium in that some attacks are positional, but many appear to still use the same targeting,  as does DCUO,  TERA is a little different, but that will not be spoken about here)

 

2) Rarely have the need for healing as almost all FPS games are arena based,  and usually have time limits imposed. 

 

In the end, roles are a good thing, and removing them won't make combat any better necessarily.   I'm one for faster paced, skill based combat,  and I like playing hybrid roles because - to me - being able to do a little of everything is more important then focusing on any one thing.  Many times people CHOOSE to force themselves into the farthest role they can go.  

 

For instance,  DCUO people always had a choice of DPS or a secondary role of control, healing, or tanking.   Everyone chose either one or the other and spec'd fully into it,  but skillfully I usually played a DPS character that had enough heals for secondary support which kept both me and others alive while dealing more damage than healers ever could.  Often times that would be enough to support those that needed it but not enough to be dedicated to doing ONLY DPS, or ONLY healing.

 

What I'm trying ot say by this, is, sure a game like TOR will have defined roles, but that doesn't mean people HAVE to use these defined roles,  its that people will CHOOSE to use these defined roles.   AI won't change this.

What I think he's trying to say, is that the average AI of NPCs in MMORPGs is so... braindead... that it can be handled by a group of five persons of which the damage dealers share one role, DPS, with very little variation between them. The only challenge can be found in their high health total and/or high damage/healing output A more advanced AI would not be fooled by a group using the Tank'n'spank formula, and would swiftly send them back to Wipeville.

This pretty much. I didn't mean there would be an elimination of roles but that they would change from the static form of the trinity gameplay.  Artificial game mechanics like taunt are old fashioned. Ask yourself this, you are in a fight against a heavly armored foe, a wizard throwing dangerous spells about, some dude in the back healing all of them, and perhaps some archer in the back. Would the slow moving, weak hitting, heavy armored guy be your primary target? I mean by him saying that he farts in your general direction really going to make him your priority? Would you really stand out in the open waiting for those ranged abilities to hit you?

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Alot

 

What I think he's trying to say, is that the average AI of NPCs in MMORPGs is so... braindead... that it can be handled by a group of five persons of which the damage dealers share one role, DPS, with very little variation between them. The only challenge can be found in their high health total and/or high damage/healing output A more advanced AI would not be fooled by a group using the Tank'n'spank formula, and would swiftly send them back to Wipeville.

Hmm, while I might be able to see that,  I think it would only require better tanking abilities. (maybe not "better" per se,  but , "different", to compensate)   I do feel that the majority of AI is braindead for MMOs,  but I think better AI could also breed better use of classes too.  I'm all for better AI,  I just can't see how changing the AI would force a change in the need for  classes. 

 

I really can't think of a formula for a specific mob that would remove the class restriction.   I think that would rely more on the type of combat rather than AI.  

If an enemy NPC would focus on the player keeping the tank alive, or doing the most damage, or having the lowest armor or health, then I think that would make tanking impossible. And I don't think it's incorrect to say that an NPC doing that would have a more advanced AI than the usual which can be found in most MMORPGs.

Edit: arenasb basically said the same thing. Note: need to read more.

Originally posted by arenasb

 

This pretty much. I didn't mean there would be an elimination of roles but that they would change from the static form of the trinity gameplay.  Artificial game mechanics like taunt are old fashioned. Ask yourself this, you are in a fight against a heavly armored foe, a wizard throwing dangerous spells about, some dude in the back healing all of them, and perhaps some archer in the back. Would the slow moving, weak hitting, heavy armored guy be your primary target? I mean by him saying that he farts in your general direction really going to make him your priority? Would you really stand out in the open waiting for those ranged abilities to hit you?

I agree with you here.  I just don't know how this would really be countered,  I mean, a taunt can make sense,  but not indefinitely.  Keeping aggro is something I never really liked,  but it makes sense in some situations.  

Healers that gain threat by healing is a mechanic that isn't necessarily new,  and extremely high DPS gaining aggro is also something that MMOs have had for years.  I think if AI would ONLY rely on executing a single strategy, then yes,  that would likely create a system that would force players to do things differently.  It would likely create PvE that is much more like PvP. 

Mobs would always focus the healer, leave the low damage tank until the end,   but most systems use threat now.  In that sense we see more of a trade off in the Taral V videos,  where you have the basic tank that taunts,  but also an off tank DPS character,  a healer, and a backup healer, and the main focus was to juggle rather then just tank n spank or focus one and then the other.

You are right though, I do see what you mean with the AI now.

I am very happy about this personally. It just means that the situation I have encountered in many other games where my group has been unable to find a tank or healer to start an instance won't happen...

I also imagine it will lead to some very interesting advanced class specs and will probably allow people to switch between roles as situations dictate. I fail to see how that can be a bad thing. 

In the E3 preview I was really scared to see a smuggler as healer, it didn't fit my personal ideal for that class, but now it all makes sense! While allowing players to focus on many diverse focus, the game becomes more... uh.. "organic"? 

Still waiting to see the final product to make conclusions, but some of my fears are gone now!

The Star Wars universe doesn't have healers or tanks or DPSers.  Trying to squeeze this crap into the game is lame and stupid.

There was no one in any of the movies, books, or cartoons whose sole job was to stand around waving his hands to keep someone's health bar from getting to zero.  Han Solo never hid behind a rock to heal Luke.  Ditch in-combat healing completely.

There has been no one in any of the movies, books, or cartoons whose sole job was to call his enemy names while getting whacked on over and over.  Storm Troopers wear armor, but they don't stand there getting blasted over and over again.  Ditch the idea of tanking.

In fact, the overwhelming majority of fights in the Star Wars Universe were decided by two hits or less. There were no "DPSers".  It was kill or be killed.  A very few fights lasted up to ten minutes but the majority were decided by one shot in a split second.  It doesn't take more than one decently placed light saber or blaster hit to kill any humanoid.

I just don't understand why anyone would pay to play this game.  The only relation it has to the original IP is the fashion.  I want to live and breathe and fight in the Star Wars universe, not play dress up in a WoW clone.

Originally posted by battleaxe

The Star Wars universe doesn't have healers or tanks or DPSers.  Trying to squeeze this crap into the game is lame and stupid.

 

There was no one in any of the movies, books, or cartoons whose sole job was to stand around waving his hands to keep someone's health bar from getting to zero.  Han Solo never hid behind a rock to heal Luke.  Ditch in-combat healing completely.

 

There has been no one in any of the movies, books, or cartoons whose sole job was to call his enemy names while getting whacked on over and over.  Storm Troopers wear armor, but they don't stand there getting blasted over and over again.  Ditch the idea of tanking.

 

In fact, the overwhelming majority of fights in the Star Wars Universe were decided by two hits or less. There were no "DPSers".  It was kill or be killed.  A very few fights lasted up to ten minutes but the majority were decided by one shot in a split second.  It doesn't take more than one decently placed light saber or blaster hit to kill any humanoid.

 

I just don't understand why anyone would pay to play this game.  The only relation it has to the original IP is the fashion.  I want to live and breathe and fight in the Star Wars universe, not play dress up in a WoW clone.

You won't ever find a star wars game like that. The closest you'd likely get is Battlefront, and even then you had classes that would drop heals, and jedis, while able to kille you in a couple hits,  still ended up dying by the hands of troopers all the time.

In the end this is a game,  and one hit kills are not fun.  If BioWare plans on making money on this game, they are going to need to appeal to a broader audience which mean people will actually be able to stay alive, focus on a specific gameplay type if they want to,  and enjoy themselves rather then getting one shotted by blasters or cut in half every time they engage a jedi.

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

The concept of letting players fill a wider range of roles is a positive..  BUT... the simple fact that they stick to a system where players HAVE to fit pre-determined group roles is not good.

 

Let's move past the holy trinity concept.  It provided a good starting point for game design a decade ago, but we need to start moving on to newer and better concepts.  I don't want to hear anymore about group roles and archetypes....

I understand it can be annoyning if you're looking for a non-trinity MMO in the current day market but can we please stop acting like the trinity is some sort of horrible design choice?

Yes, there are way too many trinity MMOs. No, that doesn't make the trinity a bad system. It just makes you somebody who's had enough of the trinity and is now blaming the trinity because there's no alternatives around.

The holy trinity is a fine system that works. It wouldn't still be here if it wasn't.

The problem is that there's a shortage on alternate systems. Skill-based systems are often a nightmare to balance and can easily lead to everyone having the same build. Non-trinity class systems will also be harder to balance and it's much harder to give such a class a clear character without also giving them a role.

The problem is not that the trinity is a bad system.

To me the trinity is a good thing. I love to heal. I like to tank. I have more fun as the dedicated tank or healer then i do as dps. I can imagine a game with no tanks no healers.

Its hard enough to get people to do there job right in instances now without giving everyoen the option to do whatever they want to do at any given moment.

Yea no tirnity everyoen tnaks and heals. Would be great in theory m aybe. I can see it now utter chaos. Where a guy decides u know what i dont wanna heal anyone anymore and stops healing and decides only wants to top damage meter so wont tank and everyone is expecting them to do tank or healing at that moment ends up dead.

Its bad enough in wow that druids and pallies will que as healer or tank to get quicker que and try to force people to change what they are doign so they can dps when the other person who can ds into multi roles is forced to change from dps role he spend 30 mins waiting for group to do into a role he didnt signe up for.

Get rid of the trinity and its utter chaos and a mess. I think gw 2 will find that out. Some people just dont have the awarness to heal themselves either when playing so no dedicated healer in gw2 may hurt in the long run.

I like this expanision of roles for each class. So looking forward to playing around with the Sith Sorcerer.

Overall, I wasn't really really that happy with this direction. For myself, I want classes to really mean something. When every class can heal or tank, to me it lessens the impact that class choice itself has on gameplay. To me, it makes sense that a Jedi would heal his companions, but not a Sith. Now I understand that there has to be balance between the two factions, so there has to be at least SOME healing on the Empire side, so I don't mind a few of these types of things done in the name of balance. And I am mostly taking a wait-and-see approach. If they do a good enough job designing the Advanced Classes, I will still be happy overall. But if healing as Jedi and healing as a Scoudrel and Healing as a Bounty Hunter all feel pretty much the same, then I think this is a bad way to go. There has to be some way of differentiating between classes. They can't all feel the same. I feel like if all classes can fulfill all roles, then what really is the difference? But if BioWare does a good job making every class's experience feel unique and different then I feel this could work.

So instead of heal/tank/dps, you want Support/Control/DPS?

lol wat?

You can pretend and "label" it not the HOLY TRINITY, but you will still have roles.  People will still pick rolls and they will do those rolls.

You can call those rolls whatever you like.  But it doesn't make sense for a robe wearing (IE below light armor) class to be able to be hit more then once or twice by a big bad boss.  Now if said boss was a caster himself, that's something else.

Why have different sets of armor with different armor values?  Why not just let anyone wear any clothing they like if you are using a "no roll system"?

"In the end this is a game,  and one hit kills are not fun."

I disafree.  One hit kills ARE Star Wars.  Living in the Star Wars universe is tough - ask Greedo.  I just can't see the Canteena scene with Han and Greedo shooting and hitting each other for 5 minutes while their health bar slowly ebbs being fun.  We wouldn't be interested in a Star Wars game at all had it played out that way on screen.

"The holy trinity is a fine system that works. It wouldn't still be here if it wasn't."

It's a crutch that was used back in the late 1980's for MUDs.  Developers continue to use it thinking they can out-WoW WoW.  They refuse to create a new system that would actually be more epic and cinematic for a game like Star Wars where the universe just doesn't fit the model.

"Why have different sets of armor with different armor values?  Why not just let anyone wear any clothing they like if you are using a "no roll system"?"

Back to playing dress up.  You'll have to ask George Lucas why StormTrooper armor doesn't seem to mean much since most troopers that die onscreen seem to only take one hit.  It's just the Star Wars way.  Making the armor have some type of defense against blaster or light saber hits would change the universe. 

Personally, I don't want to play dress up.  The clothes shouldn't make the character.  Luke didn't need a light saber of a thousand paper cuts to defeat anyone.  He didn't seek the Jedi Robe of many colors either.

The problem with all of this multi classing is that back in EQ / Vanilla wow, if you were at end game, you knew your class pretty well, and if you were at endgame and geared for raids, especially as you got to T2 and 3 raids, you were probably really good at your class. Now a days we have people who are just not good at tanking "filling in, in a pinch" which loosly translates to "wiping the group a fewl 1000 times"

The Roles are still here folks.

They are just in the form of different classes.

Class does not equal role.  Your set up does.

Kudos to Bioware.

Originally posted by battleaxe

"In the end this is a game,  and one hit kills are not fun."

I disafree.  One hit kills ARE Star Wars.  Living in the Star Wars universe is tough - ask Greedo.  I just can't see the Canteena scene with Han and Greedo shooting and hitting each other for 5 minutes while their health bar slowly ebbs being fun.  We wouldn't be interested in a Star Wars game at all had it played out that way on screen.

 

That is a movie,  this is a game.  Again, you pick up a sword and go whack someone with it, I promise you, they will not stand there and take it for 5 minutes.  Most games are blow for blow, especially in MMOs.  

Most people won't play a game with 1 hit kills,  most people don't play games with full loot,  hell, most people don't even play FFA games.   I'd be interested to know what games you know of that are so true to life that you're currently playing or looking forward to,  but,  usually you don't heal in a few minutes from gunshots like in FPS games, and you can't fix vehicles or turrets in a matter of seconds either.    These are games, so, naturally, you want people to play and have a chance to compete without frustration.

The only thing that makes a bit upset with this game, is the fact that I'm forced to use two one-handed  lightsaber if I want to be a Jedi DPS dealer... which is awfully lame, I only want to use one lightsaber.