Now, I am all for a new column, by anyone, and I am sure Dragons has some interesting things to say and has experience to help shape those opinions.

I am, however, supremely annoyed at the behaviour of the leaders of this website, who it is clear now posted ridiculous "news" stories to acclimate us, I suppose, to the coming of this column. I am not sure it was a good idea, where there was nearly universal disdain for that choice, to bring a new column by the leader of that guild. Now, I hate censorship of any kind, and I, as I said, welcome anyone new with opinions founded on having played many games, which I suppose Dragons has.

I do not like the way it feels that MMORPG is setting this guild apart from others as if it is the only one worth talking about. Yes, I read what Stradden said, but I can't believe no other guild leader has ever wanted to do this sort of thing.

I do not like the way The Syndicate seems to portray itself more as a company than a gaming guild. I don't like the way people keep talking about them having clout with developers (that concerns me greatly). And I don't like the way this website seems to be showing them preferential treatment.

That said, I am sure to be the guild leader *cough* CEO of a large group like that, Dragons knows a thing or two about gaming communities, and would be worth seeing what discussions we can have about them.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

Now, I am all for a new column, by anyone, and I am sure Dragons has some interesting things to say and has experience to help shape those opinions.

I am, however, supremely annoyed at the behaviour of the leaders of this website, who it is clear now posted ridiculous "news" stories to acclimate us, I suppose, to the coming of this column. I am not sure it was a good idea, where there was nearly universal disdain for that choice, to bring a new column by the leader of that guild. Now, I hate censorship of any kind, and I, as I said, welcome anyone new with opinions founded on having played many games, which I suppose Dragons has.

I do not like the way it feels that MMORPG is setting this guild apart from others as if it is the only one worth talking about. Yes, I read what Stradden said, but I can't believe no other guild leader has ever wanted to do this sort of thing.

I do not like the way The Syndicate seems to portray itself more as a company than a gaming guild. I don't like the way people keep talking about them having clout with developers (that concerns me greatly). And I don't like the way this website seems to be showing them preferential treatment.

That said, I am sure to be the guild leader *cough* CEO of a large group like that, Dragons knows a thing or two about gaming communities, and would be worth seeing what discussions we can have about them.

 I will have to agree on most points made,. especially the one I highlighted.  However the text in red, I will say I have to disagree with.

I don't understand the people's hate in here. So we have a guy (who is apparently a very experienced guild leader) talking about gaming communities, call me odd but I fail to see how this is a bad thing. In fact, it's going to provoke rather interesting discussions.

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by Sovrath

My other thought is that MMORPG.COM should (as another had indicated) open the door to other larger guilds or just guilds that do things that are noteworthy.

 

We have never closed our doors to any guild... ever. The Syndicate is simply the first large guild that reached out to us. I strongly encourage, should they want to, other large scale guilds to approach us.

Whatever you personal feelings about this particular guild, Its leader,the man we have writing the articles, is well respected within the industry. I've spoken with him a number of times about MMOs and the stuff that goes on around them and he has always been very knowledgable. That's why he has a column here. 

The guild perspective is an area of MMOs that we've lacked in our columns in the past. We're seeking to rectify that.

My personal feelings is that I don't have personal feelings toward the guy or his guild. I'm always for different viewpoints as I find it spurs conversation.

Having said that is seems a very diverse group of guilds will have to be featured in order to apease a lot of people who have some issues with the start of the column.

I will have to agree that it is pretty ironic that all the news about The Syndicate strikes up a massassive flame war on all the new columns. YET they bring in the leader to LEAD news columns.

 

I look at this as they favor The Syndicate and make brash decisions on somthing that could have great potential.

sorry. hey Sean, cant wait to read your column. i know everything i just said is exactly what you dont have in your guild, I was upset i guess. i do know about your guild i think it would be awesome to see what you have to say. so... welcome :)

[Mod Edit]

Well the mod edit messed up the context of my post. I was replying to an angry post full of four-letter words. It was basically claiming that the leader (sorry CEO) of The Syndicate was a God, and that everyone who didn't know or worship him was detritus.

 

This post beautifully outlines why communities in MMOs are often found lacking. The language is appalling and the anger apparent. People may not like the idea of a column by this guy, who it is quite understandable that people may not know, but at least they can put their thoughts in to words without going over the top with anger and abusiveness. Attitudes like this ruin MMO communities because there is always someone willing to be an aggressive and damaging factor.

 

There are too many people that damage MMO communities to make them wholly successful. Just look at the arguments that have insued from the EQ progression servers. There is constant debate about who killed what, who trained who or who had rights to a kill. It's not only arguments but the throwing back and forth of insults and bad language.

 

There is nothing wrong with forming a criticism of something, it is the way people do it. They can present it eloquently or they can become rude and lacking in sense. There's too much of the latter in MMO communities. Can anyone do anything about that? The developers probably can not without a strict set of rules, but maybe the communities can by isolating the damaging factor.

I don't get it.  Why is a new writer coming on board a bad thing?  Personally, I am looking forward to reading some of his work.  If I agree or disagree it's all good if in the final analysis I acquire new information or a new viewpoint.  You simple learn to learn and expand your world, or become roadkill.  It's called life and there is no getting over it.

Originally posted by kzaske

I don't get it.  Why is a new writer coming on board a bad thing?  Personally, I am looking forward to reading some of his work.  If I agree or disagree it's all good if in the final analysis I acquire new information or a new viewpoint.  You simple learn to learn and expand your world, or become roadkill.  It's called life and there is no getting over it.

I don't think anyone thinks it's a bad thing to have a new writer on board. I believe it's the context that has got people double taking. Here is some guy that has led a long lasting MMO guild across a number of games. It doesn't appear that he has ever made an MMO or run an MMO's community team, yet he is being promoted as the person to lead us in to a new era of MMO community filled pleasure. Yes, it has been noted there's some hyperbole attached, but what's the point of a serious column shroude din hyperbole?

 

I certainly agree with a need to discuss why MMOs seem so lacking in community, but I think it's something for a round table, or big discussion, not some guy who's led a guild. That only addresses the community of a guild, and I don't think it's a huge, huge accomplishment to keep a group of friends together for twelve years.

 

There's far more pressing factors that damage MMO communities that can only be addressed by those who develop the games.

 

I welcome the guy on board, because I'm sure he has some interesting stuff to say, but there's a fair amount of pessisism from me that this is going to change our genre. I'd love to see some community improvement from it though. Maybe some developers will take note of what transpires here.

Well I didn't read the full article becuase I lost interest while reading the self loving gloating from the author about his massive achievments. Anyways He did make a few valid points in what I did read. How guilds come and go, implode, etc. How there really are no other guilds as large that have been around for as long as his. So with this in mind, how does this guy have a clue about player communities at all, clearly his 1,200 strong community is nothing at all like the communities the rest of us play with. 

 

I know these guys are constantly tapped for betas and their feed back is requested and valued higher then other gamers.  This is very disturbing to me when to me its clear this guild is a fluke and most likely only successful because it is run as a business. The rest of us play games to escape work. In any case, I hope developers are inteligent enough to take anything this guy has to say with a grain of salt and realize that while his guild is large, in fact it is the minority of their potential player communities and in no way as the author says himself, a reprsentation of the typical or average guild.

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by finnmacool1

Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by finnmacool1

"MMORPG.com is pleased to feature a brand new column that will focus on gaming communities. No one is more eminently qualified to talk about these two critical features than the President and CEO of The Syndicate Sean Stalzer. Read Sean's introductory column as he offers up his qualifications and some thoughts about the future of his column."

 

I havent even made it to the article and already two bones to pick. First off, what TWO critical FEATURES are you talking about? A community isnt a "feature" and even if it was that's only one example.

Secondly, are you seriously trying to say no one in the entire world of gaming is more "eminently" qualified than this person in the realm of game communities? Seriously? No one? Is anyone remotely close? Maybe you could give us your top ten and list what ranking system you used to tally that score.

So, hyperbole not really in your vocab then?

I prefer honesty and integrity.

ooh, burn.

Seriously man, it's a video game website. a little bit of hyperbole won't hurt. No need to take everything so 100% seriously. It ws written obviously in a hyperbolic style, and you're nitpicking. Let it go and roll with it.

 

 

 

wasnt there a column a little while back warning us all of the dangers of using hyperbole and why it isnt good?

Originally posted by Worstluck

Originally posted by NameWasTaken

The Syndicate? Who are those guyes?

Been playing MMO's since Ultima Online, and never heard of that guild.

 

Besides when I think of "The Syndicate" I think of...

Ma I loved that game back in the day. :)

 

OH WOW I loved that game back in the day.  I used to run around with a flame thrower and blast everything.  I played the DOS version on my 486 haha.  It's funny, but I am the same and to this day when I see or hear the word 'syndicate' I think of this game.

 

No idea who the Syndicate guild is and I have been around the block.  The only multi gaming guild I am aware of is my own and the Goons of course.  Good luck to them regardless :)

 

 

Miniguns...

 

/sigh yeah, Bullfrog made great games... their destruction by EA makes the NGE look like a tickle.

From my perspective, this will be a new column and not a blog. Why did that occur? We have a number of excellent writers who have earned 'blog' spots but are not 'guest writers'? Paragus, Teala, Sovrath (who doesn't have a blog but should IMO). These folks have proven track records within the community. Why not something from them?

I personally don't care a whit about the Syndicate. . What does matter is self-aggrandizement. We could have had a new writer (guest if you will) without the grand announcements of 'CEO of the Syndicate' and '1200 members unlike the misquoted # here on this very site'....blah, blah, blah. Just write without the self-promotion.

I suppose the 'spin' argument to my issue would be that a CEO of the oldest 'Virtual Community' on the web with only 6-8 members of 1200 leaving per year would be a true success story and know everything there is to know. (Apparently 85% of whom rejoin so they have only lost 18 members over 15 years...) . *blinks* Really?

 To the folks who call this group a guild, remember that 'The Syndicate isn't a guild, we are the industry leaders in gaming excellence and the most successful virtual community in the history of online gaming.' By their own definition.

 

I'll read the articles that are posted but the first time... actually to be generous I'll say the 2nd time, I see something to the extent of 'We at the Syndicate...' it will be the last time I read.

Originally posted by holifeet

[Mod Edit]

Well the mod edit messed up the context of my post. I was replying to an angry post full of four-letter words. It was basically claiming that the leader (sorry CEO) of The Syndicate was a God, and that everyone who didn't know or worship him was detritus.

 

This post beautifully outlines why communities in MMOs are often found lacking. The language is appalling and the anger apparent. People may not like the idea of a column by this guy, who it is quite understandable that people may not know, but at least they can put their thoughts in to words without going over the top with anger and abusiveness. Attitudes like this ruin MMO communities because there is always someone willing to be an aggressive and damaging factor.

 

There are too many people that damage MMO communities to make them wholly successful. Just look at the arguments that have insued from the EQ progression servers. There is constant debate about who killed what, who trained who or who had rights to a kill. It's not only arguments but the throwing back and forth of insults and bad language.

 

There is nothing wrong with forming a criticism of something, it is the way people do it. They can present it eloquently or they can become rude and lacking in sense. There's too much of the latter in MMO communities. Can anyone do anything about that? The developers probably can not without a strict set of rules, but maybe the communities can by isolating the damaging factor.

 Yes I read that post last night, he was very angry there was no less than 20 expletive's.  And yes he was very mad at any of those of us who dared to say anything negative about his guild.  In fact we had several of there guild members show up in this thread with anger as well, all but one of them have had their post modded or out right deleted. However that guy was way over the top.

I get it, I understand they love their guild, and they don't want to be dished,  It is obvious they are not used to be challenged, something they are going to have to get used to if they are going to stick around here. 

It should be interesting to hear what this fellow has to say at his next column,  and see the results.  I expect more of the same. A lot of disagreement, and a lot of bashing of folks who disagree.  It just the way these forums work nowadays.

 

Originally posted by erictlewis

Originally posted by holifeet

[Mod Edit]

Well the mod edit messed up the context of my post. I was replying to an angry post full of four-letter words. It was basically claiming that the leader (sorry CEO) of The Syndicate was a God, and that everyone who didn't know or worship him was detritus.

 

This post beautifully outlines why communities in MMOs are often found lacking. The language is appalling and the anger apparent. People may not like the idea of a column by this guy, who it is quite understandable that people may not know, but at least they can put their thoughts in to words without going over the top with anger and abusiveness. Attitudes like this ruin MMO communities because there is always someone willing to be an aggressive and damaging factor.

 

There are too many people that damage MMO communities to make them wholly successful. Just look at the arguments that have insued from the EQ progression servers. There is constant debate about who killed what, who trained who or who had rights to a kill. It's not only arguments but the throwing back and forth of insults and bad language.

 

There is nothing wrong with forming a criticism of something, it is the way people do it. They can present it eloquently or they can become rude and lacking in sense. There's too much of the latter in MMO communities. Can anyone do anything about that? The developers probably can not without a strict set of rules, but maybe the communities can by isolating the damaging factor.

 Yes I read that post last night, he was very angry there was no less than 20 expletive's.  And yes he was very mad at any of those of us who dared to say anything negative about his guild.  In fact we had several of there guild members show up in this thread with anger as well, all but one of them have had their post modded or out right deleted. However that guy was way over the top.

I get it, I understand they love their guild, and they don't want to be dished,  It is obvious they are not used to be challenged, something they are going to have to get used to if they are going to stick around here. 

It should be interesting to hear what this fellow has to say at his next column,  and see the results.  I expect more of the same. A lot of disagreement, and a lot of bashing of folks who disagree.  It just the way these forums work nowadays.

 

 

Disagreement is always warranted and nothing would be acheived without it. The problem with much of the internet is that disagreement often ends up being abusive and argumentative. How many threads do you see that quickly turn in to flame wars? Community is broken, and not just in MMOs. It's a hard thing to fix when so many people are intent on putting wedges in reasonable discussions.

 

I actually think MMORPG.com don't always help with their modding. They are rather quick to weed out the seriously abusive and inapplicable posts, but they are equally quick to weed out stuff that might well be useful along with editting bits of posts to make threads look disjointed and hard to follow. There was a column a few weeks ago and though I can't recall exactly what it was about, it descended into a bit of a frcas very quickly, though it was never an overly abusive fracas, but just a few people asking someone with blunt and non-constructive posts to elaborate a bit. The mods ripped the thread to bits even though there were some good points.

 

Maybe the answer to building communities is to help ourselves. Weed out the bad element and support the good. Just don't be so destructive at weeding out the bad that the whole place descends in to a fracas.

 

I guess control is one thing this Dragon guy can teach us. He must have had his moments where he has needed to resolve disputes and he's obviously done a good job at that. How do you maintain a peaceful community without coming across as a dictator?

 

Of course maybe we're in a losing battle already. It's often in the press over here in the UK that society and community are wrecked. If it's like that in the big, wide world, then what hope do MMO communities have?

The hostile posts that the mods deleted that purported to be from "Syndicate members" were merely trolls attempting to stir up controversy and make the members of The Syndicate look bad.  The kind of people we recruit do not engage in hostile posts, name calling and trolling.  There are also guild rules prohibiting that kind of conduct that results in loss of membership if its broken. 

 

The suggestions on topics for this series were collected and passed to Dragons.  Thank you for posting those. 

Originally posted by Syndicate

The hostile posts that the mods deleted that purported to be from "Syndicate members" were merely trolls attempting to stir up controversy and make the members of The Syndicate look bad.  The kind of people we recruit do not engage in hostile posts, name calling and trolling.  There are also guild rules prohibiting that kind of conduct that results in loss of membership if its broken. 

 

The suggestions on topics for this series were collected and passed to Dragons.  Thank you for posting those. 

 

This is one of the things I am curious about. How do you manage members in a guild that is reported to be large and spans numerous games? Is it a case of one rule infringement and you're out? If so then is that community or simple organisation? Does community mean members are less liable to transgress? I doubt that somehow.

 

It will be interesting to read how Dragons believes community works.

{mod edit}

 

Saying that, I pretty much agree with what was said, it made sense, but it also failed to underline the core problem of MMORPGs... in that they ARE about community, but that this same community is in general 90% full of assholes and so the concept this genre is built on is simply broken on the wider scale. The people make these games, but most of the people in the modern hobby pretty much suck atttitude wise (as dictated by fashionable modern mainstream internet culture that says 'be a dick, it's cool and no one can hurt you'). So, little self proclaimed oasis of fantastic community aside, these games fail because the wider user base fails, and thats about it.

IMO, no amount of game design now can reverse the modern internet culture back to real 'community'. I used to think it could, but now I just think it's too late.

I generally never post on this site due to the greater then normal amount of trolling but this column has finally brought out the troll in me, firstly because it is a well known fact that the syndicate are shameless self promoters to the point of arrogance. Secondly they would have you believe that they are the one and only long lived legacy clan when contrary to the columns statement there are in fact others just as long lived or almost so, my guild is 14 years old, stable, and large am i not qualified as well? Thirdly i would cite that anyone who has gamed or spent any significant time in a community would easily have this trivial knowledge including myself

truth be told i see this as just another soap box self gratuitous ego trip which will what? Educate me on the fundimentals of the social dynamics of guilds and gaming communities and the impact they have on gaming? Be real, we all know these things and before a justification comes barrelling at me citing the idea that this column and it's author is going to bridge the gap between game design and community relations by defining social and psychological under pinings associated with online gaming communities and to enlighten and educate not only those playing but the design companies as well is a farce and blatant aggrandizment on the part of the author to believe people to be this obtuse and obfuscate the true agenda here.

I get the impression that the author is treating the very same communities he is hoping to enlighten as children, and we require his unmatched knowledge in guild affairs to understand games? Frankly it's a slap in the face to assume that both players and game companies are unaware of the symbiosis of the two and from my experience game companies invest a great deal trying to understand us and have their own pathways to accomplish this hardly requiring this column or author to do so.

Besides any really educated gamer and guild builder or community manager knows that game design is built upon a foundation of money mechanics and draws inspiration through industry trends and standards, which means our communities don’t impact the final product they impact the success of that product just as everyone already knows.

However what isn't known is game companies really don't see the communities the way we think they do thus the disconnect. Unfortunately this article alone won't do it and i personally do not require the author to speak on my behalf, i get my own say in my own way and don't recall hiring the author to be the the mouth piece of my gaming experience.

If MMORPG believes his conjured credentials then they obviously need his services more then we do to understand their own community, most gamers don't like being talked down to by one of their own, especially someone no better or different than themselves.

Originally posted by Drakiis

I generally never post on this site due to the greater then normal amount of trolling but this column has finally brought out the troll in me, firstly because it is a well known fact that the syndicate are shameless self promoters to the point of arrogance. Secondly they would have you believe that they are the one and only long lived legacy clan when contrary to the columns statement there are in fact others just as long lived or almost so, my guild is 14 years old, stable, and large am i not qualified as well? Thirdly i would cite that anyone who has gamed or spent any significant time in a community would easily have this trivial knowledge including myself



truth be told i see this as just another soap box self gratuitous ego trip which will what? Educate me on the fundimentals of the social dynamics of guilds and gaming communities and the impact they have on gaming? Be real, we all know these things and before a justification comes barrelling at me citing the idea that this column and it's author is going to bridge the gap between game design and community relations by defining social and psychological under pinings associated with online gaming communities and to enlighten and educate not only those playing but the design companies as well is a farce and blatant aggrandizment on the part of the author to believe people to be this obtuse and obfuscate the true agenda here.



I get the impression that the author is treating the very same communities he is hoping to enlighten as children, and we require his unmatched knowledge in guild affairs to understand games? Frankly it's a slap in the face to assume that both players and game companies are unaware of the symbiosis of the two and from my experience game companies invest a great deal trying to understand us and have their own pathways to accomplish this hardly requiring this column or author to do so.



Besides any really educated gamer and guild builder or community manager knows that game design is built upon a foundation of money mechanics and draws inspiration through industry trends and standards, which means our communities don’t impact the final product they impact the success of that product just as everyone already knows.



However what isn't known is game companies really don't see the communities the way we think they do thus the disconnect. Unfortunately this article alone won't do it and i personally do not require the author to speak on my behalf, i get my own say in my own way and don't recall hiring the author to be the the mouth piece of my gaming experience.



If MMORPG believes his conjured credentials then they obviously need his services more then we do to understand their own community, most gamers don't like being talked down to by one of their own, especially someone no better or different than themselves.

 

Good post with some great points, Drakiis. It could do with a few full stops though, but it doesn't take away any of what you say.