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News & Features Discussion  » General: What’s Wrong With Entertainment?

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  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2363

4/09/11 8:57:44 PM#61
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.



None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?

I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.

In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.

The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.

Because they actually are still playing a more complex game.

They may be doing similar things as they would in a thmepark game like WoW. The difference is that their 'farming' mobs actually yields items and resources that are required by crafters. In turn, crafters trade/sell combat characters better equipment.

In a themepark MMO, combat characters just kill mobs and get drops.

It's not hypocritical behavior in the least, because even combat plays a role in a greater interdependency between players in sandbox MMOs than in themepark MMOs.

The same thing happens in themepark MMOs. Players gather mats needed for crafting for pve or pvp gear. It's no different.

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/10/11 5:25:57 PM#62
A sandbox education from a social mechanic.

First off, let's get introductions out of the way and what it means to be a social mechanic.

I am a die hard, forum lurking, community-centric, player based killing machine. A pvper, a guild soldier, a story teller, a dreamer, and a good guy many consider a true friend.

I turned a pvper while playing a theme park game which was my first mmo and at that time there were no distinctions between sandbox and theme park. While admittedly Everquest does not epitomize what pvp can be nor what a sandbox is. I came to realize very quickly why i despised such a trend and why sandbox was not a universally accepted standard.

I pvp therefore i believe in player driven game mechanics and story. Theme parks are limiting, they are linear and controlling, designed with a super market layout and structure ladened system to corral and feed thousands. The theme park is the buffet, while sand box is fine dinning requiring far more sophisticated game play and knowledge.

I am a social mechanic, because through my actions and my choices i can actually affect the gaming world in a sand box. In a theme park there is only the illusion of change. Your choices are not reflected in the world you live in, and thus there is no realism to that world.

Some might cite that they don't want realism in a fantasy world meant for relaxation or fun. Then i would have to ask you what do the letters mmoRPG stands for?

We as a gaming society have forgotten the meaning of the last three letters. A rpg element means you should not only define a role for yourself in a game, but then also have the ability to make choices while playing that role. Theme parks don't do this anymore. The developers make all the choices for you and you just follow the bread crumb trails.

I can kill four live opponents, which has farther reaching consequences, i can build assets proclaiming the gory of my guild for all to see, i can do what i choose to do and fill any role i want to project onto my enemies.

Nothing is scripted, nothing is preplanned, nothing is certain, just like in life. This adds a element of unknown to gaming sand box style which makes for a far more exciting experience. No theme park can deliver these things, most people run bots, boring apps or addons to alleviate the tedious boredom of a theme park, i know people who've slept through raids, or know the raids down to every step and second.

That's fun, how so? I define that as a monotonous exercise in wasting time for a small trinket. How does something so large as a raid in so massive as a world for so small a reward rate in comparison? When in sandbox a reward is anything you set your mind to accomplish, and the effort large or small can change that world.

The reasons theme parks are winning the debate, is because we who pvp and/or want sandbox are not as vocal a group most often. Industry trends and standards precieved, the money mechanics behind making and running these games and the biased nature concerning sandbox. Very few if anyone has ever thrown money to really try and build one, even fewer completely understand a sandbox design, and no one will listen to those who have the principle aspects laid out from experience.

Thus to answer this articles overall question is the reasons sandbox isn't popular is because not enough of them are being made, especially not any quality ones, so gamers are not being exsposed to them and thus they only know what the industry inadvertently tells them, that sandbox is bad.

- A Social Mechanic
  i00x00i

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 254

4/10/11 9:14:40 PM#63
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

My biggest problem with hand holding, liner, simple MMOs is that there's an illusion of chioce. And the elitism that comes from gear progression baffles me. Seeing someone get booted from taking part in an event because their pants don't have enough +douche points on it is a terrible innovation that isn't fun for anyone and it needs addressed.


Actual critical thinking, tactics, and choice needs to be a part of the development model for MMORPGs.


Instead we're given shells of game systems that evryone seems to forgive because 1,000s people can all kill the same 1 boss over and over and somehow this is supposed to be on par with actual innovation taking place in other video games like Red Dead Redemption's open world or even Dishwasher's combat system.


It's not okay that millions choose the lesser. It's unethical of game designers to stagnate their business.

Couldnt have said it any better myself =P

Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/10/11 9:28:53 PM#64
The argument that sandbox is no different in some aspects such as crafting and leveling is completely false, sandboxers craft and level as a means to a end, they do it for survival and to be self sufficient, whereas in a theme park its for wealth and status and completely meaningless in game, especially end game where your drops will provide better equipment and more money. Either way i live or die by the quality of my gear, my gear has to hold up in a much more dynamic and diverse arena, whereas theme coasters gear is more for looks, status, and stat augmentation to ungimp players...or help you survive pre planned and rehearsed encounters. Mine has to cover my sandbox butt through all sorts of conditions and situations and if i am gimped i stay gimped no fancy butt saving piece of gear.
  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3505

4/10/11 9:34:46 PM#65

I definately think its possible to create a MMO that uses the good from both MMO types. Fallen Earth is already an attempt at that, but unfortunately made by an Indy company. This makes their content updates quite slow. Many features for that reason are not even worked on yet.

So I dont understand why the sandbox fans and themepark fans keep acting as if one type excludes the other. You can have a sandbox game with premade content for the players that like that. But also with the freedom of a skillsystem like AO or UO and other sandbox elements. With tools for players to create their own content and playercities ala SWG.

The problem is that its just a massive undertaking to create such an MMO. One that hasnt been done yet. Not with the required polish at release anyway.

Oh btw, I dont see FFA PVP as a requirement for a sandbox game. If a sandbox is about freedom, then a player should be able to chose wanting to PVP or not. Battleground type PVP is the other side of the spectrum, so thats not a good solution either. Mechanics for guilds to be at war with each other, or content that requires you to set a PVP flag and that can take place anywhere, could be viable for this I think.

Also, although there is probably a niche in the market for this, if you want high sub numbers, FFA PVP is definately NOT the way to go.

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/10/11 9:54:01 PM#66
Free for all pvp is goes hand in hand with the choices sandbox offers otherwise it wouldn't really be a sandbox and it defeats the purpose of players being able to make choices in the first place.

Game designers have been trying to seperate the ffa pvp mechanics and sandbox environments since the dawn of online gaming and i can tell you that the train wrecks that have resulted from those experiments have killed more games then they have helped.

Battle grounds, arenas, and instanced combat is not true pure pvp, and is not a solution but a band aid fix in search of higher design element needed to make pvp, especially ffa pvp fair for all. Pvp battle grounds is like having a knife fight in a telephone booth, it's meaningless, over too quickly and requires no presence of mind or tactical discipline, not to mention matching and grouping flaws to the idea
  Caskio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/14/07
Posts: 344

MMOs are entertainment, not lifestyles.

4/10/11 9:58:48 PM#67

I've noticed a lot of people throwing the word 'choice' out there in regards to sandbox and themepark MMOs.


I wanted to share this artile from Extra Credits on Choice and Conflict.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2590-Choice-and-Conflict


I believe a lot of people don't understand how choice can be used to create a fun experience as well as a boring one.


"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio

Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/10/11 10:19:44 PM#68
Well to focus a microscope on one aspect, such as choice is to do the same by saying the word loot epitomizes a themed design game. Sandbox offers diversity too, and it's not just choices that upholds the sandbox idea, but the x factor as some else had put so well. A virtual environment can be so much more when your not faced with following the same paths tread by a thousand other players, its a difference between chutes and ladders and risk, i liked both games when i was young but i still play risk. Can choice be a bad thing? Sure it can, but i would rather take that risk then not have it at all.
  Caskio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/14/07
Posts: 344

MMOs are entertainment, not lifestyles.

4/10/11 10:38:21 PM#69

Originally posted by Drakiis

Well to focus a microscope on one aspect, such as choice is to do the same by saying the word loot epitomizes a themed design game. Sandbox offers diversity too, and it's not just choices that upholds the sandbox idea, but the x factor as some else had put so well. A virtual environment can be so much more when your not faced with following the same paths tread by a thousand other players, its a difference between chutes and ladders and risk, i liked both games when i was young but i still play risk. Can choice be a bad thing? Sure it can, but i would rather take that risk then not have it at all.

 


Even in a sandbox thousands of other players still do the same activities for the same goal in the same areas. So I don't see the difference.  Hoping for an MMO that lets you do something that another player hasn't is far fetched.  The only thing you can do differently is create your stories and experience, which is possible in both types of MMOs.


The choices made in Risk and other stratgey games are all based on resaon and logic.  They are calculated choices to achieve a known goal.  Its the same in a sandbox and themepark MMO.  I would use Minecraft as a good example of a game with real choice because you don't know what you will find the farther or deeper you go in that world.  Exploration has an unknown ending, which makes it exciting.  But still, both types of MMOs can create this expereince.  For some this expereince fades as the zones become based off paths and players use guides/wikis to help them.


IMO, I've always looked at MMOs as will this game and its current features provide the entertainment of fun, whether it is for 15 minutes or hours.  I'm not so keen on the idea of achieving great things in an MMO because it's all fantasy in a virtual world that will eventually disappear.  Do you know the name of the guild that down the first boss in MC in WoW?  I don't as I never played WoW.


"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio

Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/10/11 11:18:42 PM#70
No but i still remember every battle i've fought, the exploits of my guild and the great betrayals of our enemies. Some memories so dammed heroic as to be known by several guilds, some defeats so crushing that even our enemies felt sorry for us. A sandbox game is a on going story made by the choices of the players which can change on a daily basis i may not be able to recall what happens in wow because basically the same things happen every day, the same cannot be said of a sandbox as you have stated, and while sometimes many players tread the same paths in a sandbox as in a themed game it happends much less frequently and unless it offers some advantage to do so players in sandbox won't continue doing so, which also brings up the fact that for every action there is a reaction, you go ahead and follow the beaten path for too long and there could be consequences, which prompts unconventional problem solving skills and challenges not always found in theme park design
  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

4/11/11 12:43:13 PM#71

The only point I'll disagree with is the same one I've disagreed with in Jon's article.


Truth is WE are not really the ones guiding the ship. It's the executives at the big publishing houses and to an extent the investors who do. THEY are the ones who determine which projects get proper funding and which ones don't. They do that based upon thier PERCEPTION of where the market is at..... which is definately NOT the same as where the market is actualy at. To state that the market has actualy determined what's getting released by the AAA Houses assumes that the decision makers at those houses have perfect perception of the market. I would offer that the number of big budget releases in recent years that have seen lackluster returns is proof that the decision makers understanding of the market is cloudy at best.


Simply put, no one knows what the market for a polished, big budget, AAA sandbox might be....because no one has attempted it yet. There does seem to be at least some market for it though...otherwise a game like EVE shouldn't exist...regardless of how long it's taken to get where it is.


Note, I'm not neccesarly against Themeparks...as I do enjoy playing them also... what I'm against is the "lemming-think" that you must neccesarly follow formula - X with very little derivation in order to have a success that seems to have prevaded the industry in recent years.


  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

4/11/11 12:51:05 PM#72

Originally posted by Drakiis

Free for all pvp is goes hand in hand with the choices sandbox offers otherwise it wouldn't really be a sandbox and it defeats the purpose of players being able to make choices in the first place.



Game designers have been trying to seperate the ffa pvp mechanics and sandbox environments since the dawn of online gaming and i can tell you that the train wrecks that have resulted from those experiments have killed more games then they have helped.



Battle grounds, arenas, and instanced combat is not true pure pvp, and is not a solution but a band aid fix in search of higher design element needed to make pvp, especially ffa pvp fair for all. Pvp battle grounds is like having a knife fight in a telephone booth, it's meaningless, over too quickly and requires no presence of mind or tactical discipline, not to mention matching and grouping flaws to the idea


 


Disagree, FFA PvP is an ENTIRELY seperate design consideration then sandbox. It really has nothing to do with sandbox at all....and the fact that the 2 have been so closely linked together has (IMO) been the fall of many sandbox style games.


In point of fact, sandbox doesn't even neccesarly have anything to do with combat. You can have sandbox style games that don't feature ANY combat whatsoever .... look at the Tale in the Desert series as an example.


  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

4/11/11 1:37:05 PM#73
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.



None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?

I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.

In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.

The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.

Because they actually are still playing a more complex game.

They may be doing similar things as they would in a thmepark game like WoW. The difference is that their 'farming' mobs actually yields items and resources that are required by crafters. In turn, crafters trade/sell combat characters better equipment.

In a themepark MMO, combat characters just kill mobs and get drops.

It's not hypocritical behavior in the least, because even combat plays a role in a greater interdependency between players in sandbox MMOs than in themepark MMOs.

The same thing happens in themepark MMOs. Players gather mats needed for crafting for pve or pvp gear. It's no different.

Except for the fact that in pretty much every themepark MMO crafted gear is largely optional and usually irrelevant, as MOB drops and quest rewards usually always trump anything that players can craft.

In themepark MMOs crafting is a sidegame suppliment to combat that anyone can pickup, but consequently any crafting that can be done is marginalized by the fact that near anyone can do it, and additionally that what can be made has trivial use compared to quest and dungeon drops

In sandbox MMOs, if you want to be good at crafting you need to focus on crafting to the detriment of combat ability. Furthermore if you're a combat character looking for decent equipment, you need to barter with a player who specializes in crafting for that equipment.

As such, sandbox MMOs create an economic dynamic between players where only players who specialize in crafting can provide decent crafted items for combat characters, and combat characters can provide resources needed by crafters.

In themepark MMOs, players are largely self-sufficient, and rarely if ever need to rely on other players outside of pre-defined combat grouping (dungeons,raids, BGs, etc.).

Themepark MMOs severely lack in player interdependency, economic complexity, and as a result crafting is largely trivialized in themepark MMOs.

So it actually is vastly different from a broader perspective.

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/11/11 1:42:16 PM#74
True, however what's the point of making a sandbox game then if your combat system is either nonexsistant, or based on fighting ai? The reasons you impliment a system should be supported by the overall design. If you create this fabulous sandbox environment yet players have nothing to do in it or certain aspects or choices are mysteriously missing then that really isnt a sandbox now is it?

If i am playing in this sandbox, which to my knowledge means i am free to make my own choices in the game, and i want to kill my neighbor for stealing my chickens while i was offline but the game won't allow pvp, then how can the game be classified as a sandbox?

What you really have is another theme park, sandbox is not just a classification but several systems and design elements in place. Your combat systems and rulesets combined with your advancement system such as skills, abilities and whether you have classes or not, crafting etc. Theme parks have all these elements too but there are limitations to them, just like the combat system example.

"You cant kill this but you can kill that" does not apply in a sandbox, in a sandbox you can kill anything
  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

4/11/11 1:51:38 PM#75
Originally posted by Drakiis
True, however what's the point of making a sandbox game then if your combat system is either nonexsistant, or based on fighting ai? The reasons you impliment a system should be supported by the overall design. If you create this fabulous sandbox environment yet players have nothing to do in it or certain aspects or choices are mysteriously missing then that really isnt a sandbox now is it?

If i am playing in this sandbox, which to my knowledge means i am free to make my own choices in the game, and i want to kill my neighbor for stealing my chickens while i was offline but the game won't allow pvp, then how can the game be classified as a sandbox?

What you really have is another theme park, sandbox is not just a classification but several systems and design elements in place. Your combat systems and rulesets combined with your advancement system such as skills, abilities and whether you have classes or not, crafting etc. Theme parks have all these elements too but there are limitations to them, just like the combat system example.

"You cant kill this but you can kill that" does not apply in a sandbox, in a sandbox you can kill anything

Just because you play in a sandbox, does not mean everyone else who is wants other players to be able to kick their sand castles down, even if they can do so in retribution.

FFA PvP does not a sandbox MMO make.

There is still a point to making a sandbox MMO that's non-combat based or based around PvE. The point is that you can still be playing to shape the game world around your own and others actions. The difference is that the game promotes working together rather than against each other.

That's not to say there still can't be PvP in a not FFA MMO, sandbox, themepark, or otherwise. There very much still can be PvP, but it takes place in the form of economic conflict rather than character combat where gear/spec can often be the deciding factor in seconds long combat.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19282

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/11/11 1:52:18 PM#76
Originally posted by Drakiis
True, however what's the point of making a sandbox game then if your combat system is either nonexsistant, or based on fighting ai? The reasons you impliment a system should be supported by the overall design. If you create this fabulous sandbox environment yet players have nothing to do in it or certain aspects or choices are mysteriously missing then that really isnt a sandbox now is it?

If i am playing in this sandbox, which to my knowledge means i am free to make my own choices in the game, and i want to kill my neighbor for stealing my chickens while i was offline but the game won't allow pvp, then how can the game be classified as a sandbox?

What you really have is another theme park, sandbox is not just a classification but several systems and design elements in place. Your combat systems and rulesets combined with your advancement system such as skills, abilities and whether you have classes or not, crafting etc. Theme parks have all these elements too but there are limitations to them, just like the combat system example.

"You cant kill this but you can kill that" does not apply in a sandbox, in a sandbox you can kill anything

Only partially true.  Most people will agree that EVE is a sandbox game, and while you can be killed anywhere, there are "limiters" put into place to control the amount/rate of killing in order to prevent it from turning into a FFA gank fest which appeals to only a very small subset of the player base.  I personally think this is the most brilliant aspect of EVE and explains its continuing success.

As to the OP, I agree, I take the approach that I'll find the fun in the current themepark games while still holding out hope for a well made sandbox one day.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/11/11 2:45:49 PM#77
I agree on both points, especially if non combat is your thing or in the case of eve a well balanced pvp approach should always be goal number one to maintain a growth in community, but then the reality is in a perfect world there wouldn't be theme park vs sandbox in the first place, unfortunately there are just some ideological differences that will never coexsist
  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

4/11/11 3:07:08 PM#78

Originally posted by Drakiis

True, however what's the point of making a sandbox game then if your combat system is either nonexsistant, or based on fighting ai? The reasons you impliment a system should be supported by the overall design. If you create this fabulous sandbox environment yet players have nothing to do in it or certain aspects or choices are mysteriously missing then that really isnt a sandbox now is it?



If i am playing in this sandbox, which to my knowledge means i am free to make my own choices in the game, and i want to kill my neighbor for stealing my chickens while i was offline but the game won't allow pvp, then how can the game be classified as a sandbox?



What you really have is another theme park, sandbox is not just a classification but several systems and design elements in place. Your combat systems and rulesets combined with your advancement system such as skills, abilities and whether you have classes or not, crafting etc. Theme parks have all these elements too but there are limitations to them, just like the combat system example.



"You cant kill this but you can kill that" does not apply in a sandbox, in a sandbox you can kill anything


 


No  "sandbox" does not mean an absence of any limits....it simply means that your character is relatively free to craft thier own stories and how they interact within the game world, rather then a pre-scripted story/role created by the developers.


There are a number of ways combat (or lack thereof, mechanics) can be implimented within that. It depends upon the type of game the designers wish to depict and the atmosphere of the world setting.


For instance, if we had an MMO that wanted to depict modern life in most civilized Western Countries today. FFA PvP would probably be a pretty poor mechanic to choose..... since the majority of people who make a habit out of killing thier neighbors for stealing chickens would end up being caught and put in jail for several real life years (or more). The only way the game could actualy simulate that mechanic would be to put the player character in a 5 x 5 cell from which they could not realisticaly escape for 5 real life....and not allow them to roll up another character or create another account.


The problem with FFA PvP mechanics in games is that there really is so little consequence for killing others that the game society devolves into complete mayhem....that doesn't at all resemble anything remotely realistic in the way societies actualy function...even in fantasy worlds.


If the game were set, say in WWII.... then "You can kill this, but not that" would be perfectly fitting....as if you started randomly shooting people on your own side then you'd quickly find yourself locked up in Levenworth...or maybe even permanently dead yourself.


Sandbox isn't about "killing"....it's about creativity.....and creativity within the context of whatever world setting the game is set in.


Personaly my preference is consentual PvP....which means you can't harm my character and I can't harm yours unless we both consent to it. Mostly I like to RP when I play games...and RP in ways that are "semi-realistic"..... and for the most part that doesn't include people running around killing everyone they encounter every 5 seconds. Generaly speaking violence between people living in the same society/nation/race/tribe should be a relatively rare occurance outside very special circumstances.


  Drakiis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/07
Posts: 48

4/11/11 11:42:01 PM#79
Usually i am posting in limited format throught my android, so this will unfortunately be brief and not allow me to hit upon all your issues. But i think there is a common misconception about ffa pvp that just isnt true. From within the context of a sandbox design ffa pvp is not 24/7 pvp, it is not full on chaos with blood running knee deep and the scream of the weak echoing constantly across the land.

Communities form here, alliances are made, friendships, kingdoms and empires rise and fall, rivalries form, sieges, mass battles, some guilds are honorable with set rules of engagements, some are villianous, and survival is found by your own strength of will and tenacity. Ffa pvp is not the baby killing mmo monster the uninitiated or uneducated think it is, and for those who have tried it and only seen from a beginners perspective then you never really tried to play, making a character logging in and getting killed probably made such a person quit right there and then. Unfortunately then this person gets on a board somewhere thinking his small weak willed effort gives him all the knowledge he needs to know to denounce and crucify ffa pvp to the masses. I laugh when people talk about some 25 man raid which is scripted mind you verses my experiences in 100+ vs 100+ seiges or open battles, which are unscripted.

Your definition of a sandbox is valid, but if you could only see what i have seen then your opinions on ffa pvp and how sandbox design compliments it would be much different, and if you have seen these things the you are over looking some of the more important design elements
  eugam

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/07
Posts: 993

Something must have happened to the gene pool lately...

4/12/11 6:44:36 AM#80

[quote]


Theme park MMOs like Rift, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, LotRO (and so many more but I think you get the point) are plenty of fun for the people who love them.  I’ll freely admit that I gladly plop down money and play all of the above and more from time to time.  I like that my $15 (after initial purchase of course) can gain me access to “the parks” for thirty days at a time and that I can run around and ride the rides until I’m bored.


[/quote]


 


Well, those aren Themeparks you may access whenever you like. Uber itemization and ungodly amounts of levels or alternative points/features/skills just lock you out.

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