Trending Games | Pirate101 | Guild Wars 2 | World of Warcraft | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,899,817 Users Online:0
Games:751  Posts:6,268,582
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » General: What’s Wrong With Entertainment?

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search
83 posts found
  Brynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/03
Posts: 341

4/07/11 9:19:18 PM#41
Originally posted by daelnor

What I don't understand is why someone hasn't made something in a kindred spirit to DAOC. Not necesarily exactly the same, but maybe a game with similar depth.  I think that's what we're missing these days.  Old EQ, DAOC, AC etc had depth that is lacking now.  Todays games have lots of gimmicks and a loot train to chase.  But that's all. DAOC you had a developed PvP game that was much more than stupid capture the flag mini games, and the outcomes of pvp affected pve, and even some of the dungeons and what not you could do.  PvE wasn't all that great, but the open land dragon raids were pretty cool, and I have to admit, sometimes I miss farming a spawn rather than running around doing stupid quests all the time.  Why can't we have both?

 

Anyone remember Finns? or Redcaps? Why can't we have some of that AND decent pve quests.  I kind of miss open world dungeons too.  There's no reason you can't have open world dungeons and a few instances also.

 

Also.....when can we go back to crafting having need and meaning?  Um...that pretty much sums it up in broad strokes.

 

Yes! That's what's missing in todays games, depth. You play for a month and you're ready to go on to another game. DAOC was a game we played for a long time.

  Nesrie

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/08
Posts: 652

4/07/11 9:23:59 PM#42

EQ was a bit of a sandbox. Hell I spent a lot less time doing quest and a lot more farming gear. And where you farmed gear, a ton of choices. I don't have a problem with theme parks, but I don't want the same game with fresh paint every couple/few years either. I'd love a sandbox type game too.

parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3504

4/07/11 11:33:48 PM#43
Originally posted by mm0wiggins
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.



None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?

I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.

In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.

The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.

I don't know where to start on how much this is a load of crap (in my opinion) --  

Really it sounds like you guys are saying there's no gratification to be had from playing a videogame at all.   While, in the sense of real life productivity, this is a true statement. But we aren't talking about real life, we're talking about videogames, and moreover, the most in depth videogame genre available.     If there's no gratification then why would anyone play a game at all?    Yes, in more complex games like Eve, the player sits at their computer hitting buttons, just like in more child friendly games such as WoW, the end user is just sitting there hitting buttons.  That is no basis for comparison when evaluating whether or not a game offers accomplishment.   

Are you sure you quoted the right person? I never wrote that there was no gratification to be had in MMO's. Of course there are milestones in your gaming that are satisfying. But its still just entertainment. Well it is supposed to be anyway. So being all serious and act as if you have accomplished more because you are playing this so complex game, is kind of ridiculous.

I was just trying to point out that the elitism from some players that look down on themepark MMO's is hypocrite.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3504

4/07/11 11:39:56 PM#44
Originally posted by Blutmaul

 


Originally posted by someforumguy


Originally posted by lizardbones
 



Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.





None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?


I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.
In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.
The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.



But this is the true nature of a mmo, some players do this, some players do that, both can add something to the game, be it company, be it a potential customer for a crafter, an oppoenent for pvp, an explorer finding out secret stuff hinting it to other players there may be a new challenge hidden somewhere.
Integrate the different players into your game with clear and sane rules instead of seperate them.

I never said that it was wrong to play like that.  I was trying to take away the ridiculous elitism from some players who act as if they are some kind of geniusses for playing games like SWG, EVE etc.

When in EVE I see ppl bashing WoW for being too simple, just after I read that they only mine asteroids in EVE because they cant be bothered figuring other stuff out, but still act as if they are so smart for playing EVE instead of a themepark MMO, I think its hypocrite. Ive seen many players act like this in these so called complex games.

Instead of just approaching any computergame as if its entertainment.

  drake_hound

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 793

4/08/11 1:44:25 AM#45

Ok don´t know how to respond without it turning into a flamewar.


Bill you touched a very sensitive subject , the problem is like jon wood topic.


People should play what they enjoy , if it is a sandbox or themepark or a themebox .


It is the ridiculous amount of I want to be part of the biggest baddest MMO on this side of the planet , that is ruining the fun .


EVE terrific game , not my cup of tea , but I can see why it is working .


WoW terrific game , just not my kind of community anymore .


To be truthfull , think the game and community I connected the most with , was City of Heroes.


Now sadly we parted no hard feelings , wish the new generation the best of luck .


This is what people have to learn to do , if you don´t have fun stop pulling in people into your crap box/park , in hope it will make it beter .


It won´t , neither themepark or sandbox going to be fun , if you cannot teach others to have fun.


 


Since teaching is at a all time low , especially with facing the fact both endgame style is about digital pixels , or virtual goods .


That in the end neither party control , people have to learn to accept that , instead of bashing people on the idea of grammar or other stupid ridiculous notion of intellect .


You don´t want to accept you like digital pixels , that is people own problem .


But enough people love digital pixels and are buying tons of them with real life cash .


In every model sandbox themepark or free to play .


If there is no demand there wouldn´t be goldfarmers .


 


But enddeal I feel more and more disconnect with the dumbing down of the MMO .


The dumbing down of the general public , maybe games like minecraft is the future.


Do stuff yourself and just chat about nonesense all day when you are done .


Maybe MMO in this era is nothing more then SORPG (Singleplayer online roleplaying game).


Since in the end players pay the product , and they decide what is there fun .


When they are done with there fun , they just want to chat what is fun , what isn´t fun .

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

4/08/11 2:09:23 AM#46

Great writeup from Bill again.


I echo the notion that there hasn't been a vast, polished, and good looking character based AAA sandbox made yet. Some people saying they aren't viable because the target audience is too small are jumping to conclusions too quickly in my opinion. As you can only judge the success of a game like that when it has actually been made in the first place.


I love sandbox games and played a few, but lack of polish and uninspiring graphics has kept me from trying a great many other if I speak for myself. And I suspect there are a great many people like me.


  erictlewis

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

4/08/11 6:31:20 AM#47

I read the article it had a lot of good points.    We are lacking a true sandbox game and have since swg gave us the NGE.  Actually the first signs of  SWG getting away from sandbox was Mustafar with its quest based system to do things to level.

There have been other games that have tried,  but we are still based with most games that require you to run the rail of content to get from a to b.  

I wish for a game that was pre nge swg.  To bad the devs now days just keep regurgitating the same kill 10 rats, gather 10 rat tails, and FedEx delivery.

  User Deleted
4/08/11 8:18:26 AM#48

How many of these themepark players have actually TRIED a sandbox?


  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1641

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

4/08/11 8:23:16 AM#49

I never said that it was wrong to play like that.  I was trying to take away the ridiculous elitism from some players who act as if they are some kind of geniusses for playing games like SWG, EVE etc.

When in EVE I see ppl bashing WoW for being too simple, just after I read that they only mine asteroids in EVE because they cant be bothered figuring other stuff out, but still act as if they are so smart for playing EVE instead of a themepark MMO, I think its hypocrite. Ive seen many players act like this in these so called complex games.

Instead of just approaching any computergame as if its entertainment.

So you're saying that Dora the Explorer is just as good of entertainment to you as PBS's NOVA? That's basically what you're saying. Some people want to have to think and play a game with depth. I can whack myself in the head with a hammer and get the same effect I get from themepark games. I'm tired and a little bit dumber than when I started.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  hardicon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 363

4/08/11 8:24:05 AM#50

well we need a mix between sandbox and themepark.  something that offers you the rides without forcing you into the rides.  themepark games and gear gating is boring to me right now and has been for a while, but sandbox games are generally bug filled games that dont work properly and are just as boring in different ways.  the other big problem with sandbox games is most game companies are just allowing open world ffa pvp and calling it a sandbox, they make a world and allow anarchy, no game systems, that is not a game.  sandbox titles wont get big until some big name company like bioware or blizzard or sony, someone that has the money, makes one because all the independent studios wont put the time and money into making a game good, and they always use the same old excuse, we are a small company with no money so if you want this type of game you must pay us before our game is ready.


sorry, im not interested in paying for your development.  let me in alpha, if i like the game ill preorder it, but mortal and xyson both tried and did charge people way ahead of when the game was gonna ship, and neither game shipped complete from what i read.  havent played either, although i wanted to like both but im not gonna deal with a whole lot of problems from a game im paying monthly for, i dont have that kind of time.


  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

4/08/11 8:28:44 AM#51
Originally posted by TruthXHurts

So you're saying that Dora the Explorer is just as good of entertainment to you as PBS's NOVA? That's basically what you're saying. Some people want to have to think and play a game with depth. I can whack myself in the head with a hammer and get the same effect I get from themepark games. I'm tired and a little bit dumber than when I started.

... and you get smarter after playing a sandbox?

...

...

Never mind.  I'll just go stand over here and keep my mouth shut.

  Thorqemada

Elite Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1219

4/08/11 8:29:31 AM#52

Atm i feel that the words "themepark" and "sandbox" do not cover the possibilities of the meaning of "Virtual World".
MMORPGing for me is adventuring in a virtual world that has a rich history and therefore adventures that not belong only to players trying to "green thumb" a sand desert but also to the lore of the virtual world offered by the old inhabitants (npcs) of this world that have to ignore, coop, struggle, fight with the desertlovers of different type.

I want back the entertainment in the virtual world setting!

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
The Very Model of a Modern Major General (Grievous): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoiQw7kPqf8

  Paradigm68

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 880

4/08/11 8:30:33 AM#53

For me MMORPG's were supposed to offer virtual worlds in which the players were the focus.  Having started out as a PnP player, then on to muds and such it was clear that the trend was towards greater detail and greater fidelity to a virtual world, greater immersion. Highly instanced, zoned worlds in which the players have little to no impact on the world and even worse the focus of player interaction has trended away from player-to-player, towards player-to-npc, have stopped the trend towards greater fidelity and immersion and in some cases has reversed it.

Bottomline: I don't avoid themeparks.When they come out, I've tried them. I've played WoW, AoC, LoTRo, FFXIV (and if I can get a free trial for Rift, I'll try that one too). And so far when I've tried them, their offering when compared to my expectation of the genre just makes them too shallow to hold my interest for more than a month or two.

  Quaglia

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/05
Posts: 58

4/08/11 9:36:15 AM#54

Games need to be based on gear, because if you base them on players' skills, since this planet is full of dumb idiots, only few who have brains (i'm not in the category btw) will be able to succeed, and ofc the big audience will turn away.

if you remember in the far past, games were for the skilled ones and only few could state they  could beat them- and they were entertainement only for nerds and geek.. not enough customers to invest huge amount of monay and make big profits.

So, expect to have game based on gear grinding until tecnology will provide tools to replace this mechanic, because business wants big audience and big audience is dumb.

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1641

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

4/08/11 9:39:20 AM#55
Originally posted by Quaglia

Games need to be based on gear, because if you base them on players' skills, since this planet is full of dumb idiots, only few who have brains (i'm not in the category btw) will be able to succeed, and ofc the big audience will turn away.

if you remember in the far past, games were for the skilled ones and only few could state they  could beat them- and they were entertainement only for nerds and geek.. not enough customers to invest huge amount of monay and make big profits.

So, expect to have game based on gear grinding until tecnology will provide tools to replace this mechanic, because business wants big audience and big audience is dumb.

I rememebr games on my NES that I couldn't ever beat, but now you can play through the average game in 6 hours.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

4/08/11 11:28:44 AM#56

My concern with Rift has never been that it's a themepark. If you want to class games like LotRO in with themeparks then I could quite happily say I can enjoy themepark style MMOs. I suspect you would also include games such as EQ2 which I enjoyed. I prefer a game built around a complex world but I can have fun in simpler games.


 


Rift has taken things to a whole new level. Where as LotRO and EQ2 were quest-based adventures they also had much more going for them in the form of some difficulty, meaningful grouping and alternative levelling paths. Rift doesn't. Rift strips the genre down in almost every area. Where the game does show signs of innovation is in the class system and the dynamic events but both are wasted in a shallow game.


 


So I might long for a truly innovative sandox title but I can have fun in themeparks, and I have done so in the past. Rift really is a disappointment for themeparks though, let alone MMOs in general. Sure I'd like more from my games. I'd love to see the final end of quest based games and I'd like to see games somewhat more challenging and focus on promoting fun at all levels rather than just the end ones. I often say the state of MMOs is bad, and it's not great really. Rift really puts the ball firmly in the court of a downhill trend if you ask me.


 


From where I am sat I can not help but feel it is a little stereotypical of MMORPG.com to be so defining the distinction between possible types of MMO gamer. Is it yet another defence of Rift in the face of much displeasure? Didn't another staff member write a blog on the subject of stereotyping of players within this genre very recently?


All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  trancejeremy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 1220

4/09/11 3:43:59 AM#57

The thing is, Sandbox players always complain there aren't sandbox games. And when one gets released, like Darkfall, they cry about how it's not polished and complete enough.

But hello, pretty much all MMORPGs suffer from that problem.

All the major theme park MMORPGs launched in the last few years were lacking in content and/or polish or just flawed. Age of Conan, WAR, even Lotro...

Sandboxers keep looking for the perfect game that will live up to their rose color tinted memories of past sandbox games. But nothing can. So they need to get behind the games that do exist (like Darkfall) and support them...

R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  Branes

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 12

4/09/11 4:03:44 AM#58

The simple reason why theme parks are more preferable and successful in the MMO field is that people, especially younger people, have become extremely mentally lazy in the last 10 or so years. As an IT specialist I can tell you that in 99% of the situations I see, an individual having a manual for a piece of equipment is a total waste because they won't read it. They want knowledge, success, experience served to them on a silver platter by a tuxedo wearing servant. They want to come out of college with a $50-80k job waiting for them. This carries over into the MMO world.


Spend 5 minutes reading the general chat on WoW or most other theme park games and you'll see that. They ask ridiculous questions that could easily be answered by spending 5 minutes on Google, or even reading the online instructions provided by the manufacturer.


The other reason is just the phenomenal success of WoW has convinced developers that the WoW, theme park approach is the one that works. Of course, they forget that EQ1, DoAC and UO preceded WoW and were all successful in their own right and for the most part, had very few theme park aspects, and that WoW is really the ONLY hugely successful theme park game. All others have had to go FTP or have very low populations. 


But WoW figured out a long time ago what drives the average MMO gamer...pretty much the same thing that drives most people...elitism. The idea that "I'm better than you" or "I have something you don't have."  For example, they have "vanity" pets, hard to acquire, very expensive or special "rewards" .  The very thing that drives away serious gamers, the elitism, childish power trips and whatnot, is what fuels their huge player base. It's not really about the game experience, per se, it's about getting to the top as fast and as easy as possible and then being the most uber, powerful, unbeatable, whatever class you are in the world!!!  And of course, that's driven by gear acquisition. So, it's all about "keeping up with the Joneses" and the content is relatively meaningless except as a means to that end. Crafting, rather than being something that really drives the economy is little more than a time distraction because in most cases, it generates little net income because the loot drops far exceed the value of most crafted items. Blizzard knows that today's "average" player of an MMO wants everything handed to them and they do just that. 


They've lowered the prices on all the "elitist" items players used to have..mounts, flying mounts,  dual specs, etc to levels even a newb can afford so that instead of a player feeling like "I can't wait to get to 40 for my mount" and "I'd better start saving for it", you now get it at 20 and it's only 10 gold as opposed to 100. Player classes like Paladins and Warlocks who used to have to do involved, expensive quests, requiring help from friends or guildies, now get their epic mounts from their trainers with no quests.


Every expansion completely negates all previous content because the common loot drops far exceed the "epic" gear of the previous levels. Again, it's not about content, it's about the loot you get from it. This, in my opinion, will eventually be the downfall of WoW. And newer players will never experience what, at one time, was some of the best content in the game..Molten Core, Dire Maul, etc which now are totally unnecessary for level growth.


The worst thing missing from theme park games is tactics. No longer does a party have to plan it's attacks with care because even if you wipe, it's just a short run back to the dungeon and no harm done with the exception of having to pay a few gold for repairs later. And once you have epic gear, even the toughest bosses become ho hum.


Contrast this with EQ1, the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, where you had to move carefully from room to room, hallway to hallway because if you died,  you were out unless you got rezzed and if the party wiped, then you start the whole shooting match over from square 1.


Frankly, I just don't see any company taking a chance on a theme park game with today's player base. Those of us who prefer that kind of game are a very small minority of the MMO world, I'm afraid.


 


 

  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

4/09/11 7:27:28 AM#59
Originally posted by Branes

The simple reason why theme parks are more preferable and successful in the MMO field is that people, especially younger people, have become extremely mentally lazy in the last 10 or so years. As an IT specialist I can tell you that in 99% of the situations I see, an individual having a manual for a piece of equipment is a total waste because they won't read it. They want knowledge, success, experience served to them on a silver platter by a tuxedo wearing servant. They want to come out of college with a $50-80k job waiting for them. This carries over into the MMO world.


Spend 5 minutes reading the general chat on WoW or most other theme park games and you'll see that. They ask ridiculous questions that could easily be answered by spending 5 minutes on Google, or even reading the online instructions provided by the manufacturer.


The other reason is just the phenomenal success of WoW has convinced developers that the WoW, theme park approach is the one that works. Of course, they forget that EQ1, DoAC and UO preceded WoW and were all successful in their own right and for the most part, had very few theme park aspects, and that WoW is really the ONLY hugely successful theme park game. All others have had to go FTP or have very low populations. 


But WoW figured out a long time ago what drives the average MMO gamer...pretty much the same thing that drives most people...elitism. The idea that "I'm better than you" or "I have something you don't have."  For example, they have "vanity" pets, hard to acquire, very expensive or special "rewards" .  The very thing that drives away serious gamers, the elitism, childish power trips and whatnot, is what fuels their huge player base. It's not really about the game experience, per se, it's about getting to the top as fast and as easy as possible and then being the most uber, powerful, unbeatable, whatever class you are in the world!!!  And of course, that's driven by gear acquisition. So, it's all about "keeping up with the Joneses" and the content is relatively meaningless except as a means to that end. Crafting, rather than being something that really drives the economy is little more than a time distraction because in most cases, it generates little net income because the loot drops far exceed the value of most crafted items. Blizzard knows that today's "average" player of an MMO wants everything handed to them and they do just that. 


They've lowered the prices on all the "elitist" items players used to have..mounts, flying mounts,  dual specs, etc to levels even a newb can afford so that instead of a player feeling like "I can't wait to get to 40 for my mount" and "I'd better start saving for it", you now get it at 20 and it's only 10 gold as opposed to 100. Player classes like Paladins and Warlocks who used to have to do involved, expensive quests, requiring help from friends or guildies, now get their epic mounts from their trainers with no quests.


Every expansion completely negates all previous content because the common loot drops far exceed the "epic" gear of the previous levels. Again, it's not about content, it's about the loot you get from it. This, in my opinion, will eventually be the downfall of WoW. And newer players will never experience what, at one time, was some of the best content in the game..Molten Core, Dire Maul, etc which now are totally unnecessary for level growth.


The worst thing missing from theme park games is tactics. No longer does a party have to plan it's attacks with care because even if you wipe, it's just a short run back to the dungeon and no harm done with the exception of having to pay a few gold for repairs later. And once you have epic gear, even the toughest bosses become ho hum.


Contrast this with EQ1, the Lost Dungeons of Norrath, where you had to move carefully from room to room, hallway to hallway because if you died,  you were out unless you got rezzed and if the party wiped, then you start the whole shooting match over from square 1.


Frankly, I just don't see any company taking a chance on a theme park game with today's player base. Those of us who prefer that kind of game are a very small minority of the MMO world, I'm afraid.


 


 

Nice post and a good read, Branes.

 

Arguably I don't think this is a case of themepark versus sandbox. I think those two terms are way too generalised and any good game should look to overlap boundaries and encompass something of everything. The situation we see in MMO gaming is just what you describe with WoW. We've gone through a series of steps from fleshed out games of the EQ generation to games that evaporate it all down to the simplest form, in Rift.

 

For all the comments WoW gets I would happily state that it was in the middle of this trend. I played the game close to release and I enjoyed seeing the new places and travelling the world and I enjoyed the PvP and group content with friends. It all started to drain heavily on me around the 40th level though. Other games from around that time, and since, have faired similiarly. Then Rift came along and I experienced the whole ride in a few beta tests. Rift is the culmination of the removal of detail and the addition of easy gratification in MMOs. MMOs can not go further down the path than Rift, they can only rise again. That gives me hope for the likes of GW2. Developers are, I think, starting to see what we have come to and where MMOs need to return to.

 

Worlds over pathways/tracks/rollercoasters, or whatever you want to call them, is what needs to be adressed. Not themepark or sandbox. EQ and even WoW, in its early days, were worlds. Since then there has been a steady downwards progression to the rollercoaster rides that are games like Rift. Rift is the simplest, straightest and least scary rollercoaster ride yet.

All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  User Deleted
4/09/11 9:46:46 AM#60

Here's what gets me.

Anyone notice that MMOs prior to WoW never - or at least very seldom - ever had all these big debates and discussions about "what was wrong with the genre" brought about by them?

EA created UO. People played it. Many people found it not to their liking. Many others liked it and stuck around.

Turbine made Asheron's Call. People played it. Many found it not to their liking. Many others liked it and stuck around.

SOE made EQ. People played it. Many found it not to their liking. Many others liked it and stuck around.

CCP made Eve. People played it. Many found it not to their liking. Many others liked it and stuck around.

SE with FFXI. Funcom with Anarchy Online... and on and on and on...

Each MMO brought its own flavor and theme and approach to the MMO genre. Beyond the basic staples of levels, quests, gear, and killing stuff... they were each their own unique experiences. People played the MMO whose design they preferred and ignored those they didn't. Everyone interested in MMOs at all could find a game they enjoyed. Everyone was happy.

WoW comes along and blows MMOs into the mainstream to the point that people who hadn't even known what a MMO was knew about WoW.

Companies who previously showed no interest in MMOs at all suddenly were hopping on the bandwagon, trying to get their piece of the MMO pie. As typically happens in the aftermath of that trend, MMOs have become progressively less and less original and more and more derivative.

Here we are now debating about "what the problems are in the MMO genre" and "how should MMOs be made" and "who should be given more attention, Theme Park or Sandbox players...". Everyone's more concerned about whether or not "new MMO x" is going to be "The WoW Killer", than they are in whether or not they'd even enjoy it; giving the idea undue significance. Nothing has to be a WoW killer. It just has to be a good enough game to get people interested in playing, and provide enough to keep them playing. That's it.

Looking back to the pre-WoW days and how straightforward it was by comparison... it seems to me that we're tackling an issue that needn't exist. It's a "problem" that people have created and developers are perpetuating, IMO.

Maybe we need to stop needlessly complicating things, rewind back to the pre-WoW days when developers simply identified a genre they were interested in, designed the kind of game they wanted to create, created it and then open the doors to the players who would come to call it "home".

I might over-simplify the situation and miss some of the nuances of it... but I think the general concept is solid.

Between players, developers and publishers, things have become so convoluted and ridiculous.. it's no wonder the genre's been in such a crappy state. Everyone's going nuts trying to "figure out what players want so they can make the perfect MMO that appeals to everyone", when all they really need to do, and should do in my opinion, is create a really good, solid game that appeals to a specific cross-section of MMO players. Make it the best damn incarnation of that kind of game they can, and do so unapologetically.

If you want to attract a solid, loyal sci-fi fanbase, you do it by making a solid sci-fi movie that caters specifically to what Sci-Fi fans are looking for. You don't worry about what the people who like romance, fantasy, drama and horror "think you should include" so it's more appealing to them. They aren't your core audience.

If you're a progressive Metal band, you cater to that type of fan-base by creating very progressive music, and doing it unapologetically. Don't worry about what pop, rock, classic or new-age fans "think you should make" so it's more appealing to them. They aren't your core audience.

I just think developers have gotten away from that fundamental concept. I think players have - generally speaking - been so bombarded with "what's the best type of game style" in all its varieties, that it's become more difficult than it should be to decide which one is the most ideal for them. We've been barraged with marketing and PR for various MMO's saying "Those other MMOs have it all wrong. A good MMO has "a, b and c" and does "x, y and z". Ours has that. Theirs doesn't". And on and on.

Let's just get back to basics, where developers focused simply on making unique and interesting *games* - not gimmicky tech-demos - that targeted specific playstyles. Enough of this "catering to everyone" crap.

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search