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News & Features Discussion  » General: What’s Wrong With Entertainment?

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  Thorqemada

Elite Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1219

4/07/11 2:44:13 PM#21


Originally posted by someforumguy


Originally posted by lizardbones
 



Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.





None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?


I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.
In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.
The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.


But this is the true nature of a mmo, some players do this, some players do that, both can add something to the game, be it company, be it a potential customer for a crafter, an oppoenent for pvp, an explorer finding out secret stuff hinting it to other players there may be a new challenge hidden somewhere.
Integrate the different players into your game with clear and sane rules instead of seperate them.

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
The Very Model of a Modern Major General (Grievous): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoiQw7kPqf8

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1641

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

4/07/11 2:55:39 PM#22

PVE in SWG was much more complicated than in WoW. You had to hunt down the right creatures that were giving the highest quality hides/bones/ets. You usually had to hire a ranger to help you find them in any reasonable amount. Now in WoW you just run the same dungeon OVER and OVER until you have your suit of armor that you outgrew 8 levels ago.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  Thorqemada

Elite Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1219

4/07/11 3:03:43 PM#23

Yeah the hunting in SWG was more than runnin around killin all in sight.
After some time of hunting we set up our luxury wilderness camp to recover from the hardships of hunting and socialized quite a time until we had recovered and moved on hunting.
All the time laughing when our one melee polearm fighter again exhausted himself so much while fighting he got unconscious (killing himself only from whirling a weapon - what a great mechanic) :D

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
The Very Model of a Modern Major General (Grievous): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoiQw7kPqf8

  mm0wiggins

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/10
Posts: 275

I'd rather be lucky than smart.

4/07/11 3:04:40 PM#24
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.



None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?

I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.

In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.

The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.

I don't know where to start on how much this is a load of crap (in my opinion) --  

Really it sounds like you guys are saying there's no gratification to be had from playing a videogame at all.   While, in the sense of real life productivity, this is a true statement. But we aren't talking about real life, we're talking about videogames, and moreover, the most in depth videogame genre available.     If there's no gratification then why would anyone play a game at all?    Yes, in more complex games like Eve, the player sits at their computer hitting buttons, just like in more child friendly games such as WoW, the end user is just sitting there hitting buttons.  That is no basis for comparison when evaluating whether or not a game offers accomplishment.   

This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.

  User Deleted
4/07/11 3:06:33 PM#25
Originally posted by TruthXHurts

PVE in SWG was much more complicated than in WoW. You had to hunt down the right creatures that were giving the highest quality hides/bones/ets. You usually had to hire a ranger to help you find them in any reasonable amount. Now in WoW you just run the same dungeon OVER and OVER until you have your suit of armor that you outgrew 8 levels ago.

Some of us dont run it over and over to get the armor but to enjoy the comradery with other players. But as i said "some".

  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

4/07/11 3:25:28 PM#26
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TruthXHurts
My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.



None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?

I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.

In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.

The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.

Because they actually are still playing a more complex game.

They may be doing similar things as they would in a thmepark game like WoW. The difference is that their 'farming' mobs actually yields items and resources that are required by crafters. In turn, crafters trade/sell combat characters better equipment.

In a themepark MMO, combat characters just kill mobs and get drops.

It's not hypocritical behavior in the least, because even combat plays a role in a greater interdependency between players in sandbox MMOs than in themepark MMOs.

  Skuldin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/30/07
Posts: 83

4/07/11 4:16:37 PM#27

There is a HUGE crowd of us looking for this level of depth.  You can have open dungeons and instance dungeons...This was a great post and what I summed up the other day in my blog about PvP THEN NOW and NEXT.


 

Thirty years of gaming experience...not sure if I should be proud of that
www.mmoexaminer.blogspot.com

  joeballs

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/05
Posts: 162

4/07/11 5:02:08 PM#28

Themepark mmos were a great idea and they were a lot of fun, but it's really a time for change. Do we go back to sandbox and try to polish it up? Or do we try some type of hybrid? I don't know. But like most of you said, you can only go to so many themeparks before you get bored. The problem is that sandbox could be even more boring if not done right (i.e. the reason designers created themepark in the first place).


After reading that EuroGamer dev article about The Secret World, it sounds like even they don't know what to do at this point.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-07-the-secret-world-preview?page=2


  Axton

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/11
Posts: 20

4/07/11 5:17:41 PM#29

What your saying is completely irrelivent. Games are a way to relax and have fun, I can't have fun in a static world. Sure SWG might have been my escape world to just do what I wanted, but it was always changing and I could set goals for my self and for my charicter. When I met the goals I set for my self it was rewarding. That is the sense of accoplishment sand box gamers are talking about. 

Some of us like to be productive at everything we do, fantasy worlds included.

directed at Ceridith 

[Mod Edit]
 

  DrSpanky

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 346

"my favorite thing is a Gyro"--Malibu Dan

4/07/11 5:47:56 PM#30
Originally posted by King_Kumquat

My biggest problem with hand holding, liner, simple MMOs is that there's an illusion of chioce. And the elitism that comes from gear progression baffles me. Seeing someone get booted from taking part in an event because their pants don't have enough +douche points on it is a terrible innovation that isn't fun for anyone and it needs addressed.


Actual critical thinking, tactics, and choice needs to be a part of the development model for MMORPGs.


Instead we're given shells of game systems that evryone seems to forgive because 1,000s people can all kill the same 1 boss over and over and somehow this is supposed to be on par with actual innovation taking place in other video games like Red Dead Redemption's open world or even Dishwasher's combat system.


It's not okay that millions choose the lesser. It's unethical of game designers to stagnate their business.

+douche... hehe..you win.

It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.

  Acmegamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/10
Posts: 337

4/07/11 6:07:31 PM#31
Originally posted by Skuldin

There is a HUGE crowd of us looking for this level of depth.  You can have open dungeons and instance dungeons...This was a great post and what I summed up the other day in my blog about PvP THEN NOW and NEXT.


 

  

      I keep thinking that this is the case and yet we still don't see game worlds come out that are designed with us in mind. Instead it is more of the instant gratification/fps style mmorpg where rp isn't really existant and risk/reward are also a rare critter. Games are designed to be an instant "get into it" diversion and move on to the next thing in a month or three. I find that sad.

 

 

 

    p.s: Around 33 years of gaming experience and almost 20 years online (Sept 2012 is the 20 years). Tempus Fugit! Where does it all go.

  VowOfSilence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/09
Posts: 581

4/07/11 6:16:07 PM#32

What's wrong with entertainment?


Themeparks aren't entertaining anymore. That's what's wrong with entertainment.


Hype train -> Reality

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

4/07/11 6:29:42 PM#33

I don't agree with the article analysys.

I play WoW and Darkfall, I like them both for different reasons.

WoW is my casual game which I play for short session, Darkfall is the real deal.

 

The problem with the theme park hate is that they are monopolizing the market  damaging the chances to see the sandbox genre develope.

What developers do not understand is that once you play WoW you don't want to play its clones

I played or beta tested all major theme parks released after WoW, I got bored of them within a month, while for Rift and WAR I just needed to play Beta to get bored, could not even manage to play them at release.

I find WoW still the best theme park around by miles, plus the world of Azeroth rocks (Sorry Telara..........)

 

I really hope Bethesda shows the MMO industry how to make a succesful AAA sandbox game

I can't take another Rift

  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:07:14 PM#34

im  an 80's child, my main source of entertainment was my own imgagination and what kind of antics i could get upto when my parents where not around. some of those activities did indeed involve playing in a sandbox ofcourse this was at an early age but as i slightly matured and got older my sandbox also became more mature. instead of a specialy desogned sandpit full of sand i found myself and freinds in waste ground useing peice of junk and old bits of wood and metal to build our own assault courses and themeparks in our mature sandbox setting. it was basically a large field used primarily to store unesed materials old wood and bits of household junk like clapped out washing machines and so on.. from this we made tree houses swings unground bunkers roller coasters useing corragated steel and bread basket pallets as our sleds. we would dig huge holes into the ground and fill it with the foam from old sofas and chairs so we could chuck our selves ouf of tree's into this hole full of soft stuff, we are talking something like a 20 - 30 foot drop some of the older kids would jump from the top of the tree. which would be around the 50 foot mark. all in all it was a buzz and tremedous fun and would keep us out till it got dark.


in some cases we would spend the night in our custom made junk bunks or dens. and it was all created by us the kids, we hopped into our sandbox type enviroment and we made the most of the materials at hand useing only our imaginations to create our own fun. hell weused to make weapons out of junk too lol like crossbows and ninja stars from the cogs on bycicles. no we wouldnt try to kill each other but we did use to set up targets and such..  we also had this swing which consisted of crane cable wrapped high up in the top of a tree with a small wooden stick as a seat.. the only way onto this swing was off the top of a really high fence which sat atop an eqaully high wall!! our intentions where simple. jump onto the swing and use it as a means to fling our selves over a barbed wire fence into yet another huge hole full of foam. and again the buzz was brilliant.


so as you can se ei have an afinity for the whole sandbox adventure i like to use my imagination to create something from nothing and i have had this passion since i was a small child. and even though im 32 years old now i still have this urge and affinity to create something from nothing. im a time served fabricator welder and i specialise in prototypes. people bring me draawings of products and they instruct me to create display stands which would best help to advertise the said products and i really enjoy being creative and useing my imagination to create real things from quite literally nothing.


so its fair to assume that when im stuck in a theme park mmo enviroment and everything is all laid out before me it bores the crap out of me. ive tried to play so many theme parks and ive even forced myself to play some to the end game stuff just to make sure i wasnt doing myself an injustice.. but fact remains themepark mmo's are the exact same thing from start to finish with only one eventuality!!!! and that eventuality is boredom and the cancelation of my subscription and that i will never ever play the game again. i try all new games when they come out and so far they are all the same thing. only sandbox mmo's keep me hooked and only sandbox mmo's make me want to play mmo's at all


i fully agree with the op, games today are lazy and well halfhearted and it is indeed an injustice that games developers can get away with producing thee same old junk time and time again and slapping new labels on them..


to make sandbox games more domminant some one needs to spend a good few million on developing one..


at present eve online is probably the best sandbox mmo in existance. but it too has a huge problem. its too damn hard for a new player to get to grips with, eve is for the hard core sandbox dweller. i was raised in a sandbox and even i found eve hard to fathom out. but now im 5 years down the road with eve i can say i have my hands firmly on it and i fully understand the game and its mechanics and it is my all time favourite game so far. but i hope all the time for a new sandbox experience all the time.


im sorry guys but the themepark thing is just not what an mmo should be or represent. its like going to the park in a pram being pushed by your mum. you only get to do what she lets you do. and thats just no fun at all.


  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:13:51 PM#35

i have an idea, why dont we gamers create a gamer developed sandbox that appeals to all player types bboth sandbox and themepark alike.


we dont have to actually develop the game but more    design one if we can build a large enough community to support the idea and have the members of said community put some free time into concept art and mechanics theoretical design. we could then put it forward to the big developers and see if they would concider creating something along the lines we as a gameing community  have came up with..


after all a game is based of what the players like about them, so its commen sence to assume that a game designed by the players will be a game loved by the majority.


and no im talking about takeing something like wow and makeing it a bit more freeform or takeing eve and sticking some theme park elements to it. im talking about a complete unique and fresh idea useing some ingenuity. 


we dont want any more themeparks whatw e want is something the players can feel apart of and have an actual hand in, both in creation and playing the game.


although im not the one to start this, i wouldnt even know how. but i do certainly have some good ideas of my own which could be encorporated into such aa thing and im sure other out their also have some pretty awesome imaginations.


  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:19:39 PM#36

Originally posted by joeballs



Themepark mmos were a great idea and they were a lot of fun, but it's really a time for change. Do we go back to sandbox and try to polish it up? Or do we try some type of hybrid? I don't know. But like most of you said, you can only go to so many themeparks before you get bored. The problem is that sandbox could be even more boring if not done right (i.e. the reason designers created themepark in the first place).




After reading that EuroGamer dev article about The Secret World, it sounds like even they don't know what to do at this point.




http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-07-the-secret-world-preview?page=2



 


the secret to a sandbox is content and level of freedom granted to players that tie in some extremely relevant mechanics such as a optional pvp system. i know people crave for open pvp but in a sandbox thats not a good thing. it best that pvp be something of an option based mechanic where players can opt in for pvp, eve online does this fantastically by having its 0.0 space. and empire space, sure you can pvp in empire but at great risk to the agressor should they wish not to follow the games mechanics for starting a valid war in safe space, where as 0.0 is  free for all if your brave enough. i especially like the way eve handles pvp. although i do wish it was a little more difficult to declare war on other corps. i see too many vetteran corps war deccing a new corp full of new players just for easy kills. this needs to be ironed out of all gameing so greifing is no longer a huge problem.


  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:25:46 PM#37

Originally posted by joeballs



Themepark mmos were a great idea and they were a lot of fun, but it's really a time for change. Do we go back to sandbox and try to polish it up? Or do we try some type of hybrid? I don't know. But like most of you said, you can only go to so many themeparks before you get bored. The problem is that sandbox could be even more boring if not done right (i.e. the reason designers created themepark in the first place).




After reading that EuroGamer dev article about The Secret World, it sounds like even they don't know what to do at this point.




http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-04-07-the-secret-world-preview?page=2



 


themepark ideas where only a great idea and alot of fun when they was new!!! now they are old and just abotu every sngle gamer has had their fair share playing one. and all new games of the themepark genre are remarkably similar. this is the problem. its playing the same record over and over again but on diffrent sound systems.


  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:39:17 PM#38

Originally posted by Ceridith



Originally posted by someforumguy



Originally posted by lizardbones


 





Originally posted by TruthXHurts

My problem with themparks is I don't want to go on a ride. I want to earn something, to risk somethinhg, to have a earned sense of accomplishment. Theme park MMO's deliver none of this. Playing a theme park MMO is like bragging how you rode a mechanical bull that you were duct taped down to.








None of these games, None Of Them requires much more than time spent playing. It doesn't matter if you're playing Eve, UO or WoW. You aren't earning anything but more pixels on the screen. What's the difference between endlessly raiding for purples in WoW and endlessly mining for ore in Eve?


I agree with you 100%. There is this myth that some games are more complex by default and offer more accomplishment. But if you look at how most of the players play those games, then there is not much difference with the way how players play games like WoW or LOTRO.


In EVE and SWG Ive noticed many players who are not even interested in the more complex features like crafting (SWG)or trading/exploring (EVE). They stick to just PVE combat for example, but still act as if they are playing this complex game compared to the themepark stuff there is out there. Its very hypocrite behaviour sometimes.


The gamers that really dive into all features of games like EVE, SWG, are not many. Actually, if you restrict yourself just to PVE/PVP combat in EVE/SWG kind of games, there is not more challenge or accomplishment. If any.



Because they actually are still playing a more complex game.


They may be doing similar things as they would in a thmepark game like WoW. The difference is that their 'farming' mobs actually yields items and resources that are required by crafters. In turn, crafters trade/sell combat characters better equipment.


In a themepark MMO, combat characters just kill mobs and get drops.


It's not hypocritical behavior in the least, because even combat plays a role in a greater interdependency between players in sandbox MMOs than in themepark MMOs.



 


i love it when you get the know it alls that find excuses for why people prefer sandbox over themepark and end up calling it hypocritical, these guys clearly have no understanding of what a sanbox is. or maybe not even played in a real life sandbox of their own as a child.


the diffrence between sandbox and themepark is and always be the level of depth complexity and free form nature that the mechanics enforces on the player.. i say enforces but i really  mean is doesnt force. the games are open to sugestion, in a sandbox you can sugest to yourself what you might want to try next, you cant do this in a themepark. you have to follow the path stick to the road and take it as it comes.  you have to make do with what the game tries to give you!!!!  in a sandbox you can create the things you want how you want them to be!!! obviously within mechanics and statistical boundries.. 


take swg you can craft everything you want ane make it look how you please..  but !!!!!! you can only have a maximum of 4 stats per crafted item.  thats called mechanics intervention its the balance of things.  now asusme for a momment their was no restrictions in this area. people would be creating items with like 20-30 stats on, the result is unethical unblanced game play and gives players the ability to become something that should never exist in a multiplayer game!!! god like charecters!   another thing swg uses is material qaulity and crafter ability and level, this all walks hand in hand with the qaulity of tools and c rafting station you use. all this plays a unique part in the out come of all crafted items.. to make the very best geer you need the very best tools stations and materials and then you still have the reverse engineering portion of the game which adds yet another level of complexity to crafting makeing it more than just a viable play style for people but more of a craft or trade just like in real life. in swg you have to understand crafting and know exactly what your doing inorder to produce top end items.  you cant do this in a themepark!!!! in a themepark every one is a master craftsmen with access to the best resources lol its boreing i tell you and im nto surprised why so many people hate crafting!!! they hate it because they havnt exeprienced a really good and rewarding crafting system before..


i will admit though over the years soe have made       the swg crafting system a bit more idiot proof which has also lowered the standard of the game, thats also not to mention the game remodelling into a more arcade style themepark title.. the orriginal swg was one hell of a game and i reckon something most of you themepark fans would have loved to play. i would say the orriginal swg is exactly what all the themepark fans are crying out for, the next step in   evolution.. from themepark mmo to true form rpg mmo.


  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

4/07/11 7:42:55 PM#39

Originally posted by severius





Originally posted by King_Kumquat






 And the elitism that comes from gear progression baffles me. Seeing someone get booted from taking part in an event because their pants don't have enough +douche points on it is a terrible innovation that isn't fun for anyone and it needs addressed.




 







 




This happens in Sandboxes as well.  It is actually part of what killed Star Wars Galaxies.  Because the development team never had a full handle on the resource and crafting systems they had designed players were easily able to make weapons, armors, and buffs, that made every little bit of content in the game completely and utterly trivial, and if you went into PVP without a combat medic that had the uber poisons you did not stand a chance in hell (unless you were a tkm/doc lol).  One of hte key things that all players want is to be better than their friends so that is what causes the initial "arms race" of gear elitism followed quite quickly with the if you can't bother to get it why should I carry you mindset :)



 


thats a true statement. makes you wander why mmo's are not more team foccused rather than gear grind foccused. i would happily play an mmo with no levels or gear stats if it was all based on team work and other gameing aspects.  i for one hate the fact i have to run an instance 20 times to get one ring which has one specific stat on it that my class needs. its stupid and boreing. once i have that ring i need to go and do the same for a chain then a belt.. its god damn tedious crap!!!


  Brynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/03
Posts: 341

4/07/11 9:08:25 PM#40

I agree with Bill on all except one point. SWG was a sandbox game. My friends and I found many things to do that often differed with what others were doing. We weren't following a quest line to advance. I personally made good gold decorating player houses, using items I bought that other players had crafted. My friend I chatted with, made gold by bioengineering animals as companions for other players. Another friend established places to mine ore, and hunted for animal hides, to sell to armor and weapon crafters. He also played an instrument in a band and traveled around to other planets to play. Everyone could find something they enjoyed doing. I call that sandbox. And I sorely miss it.

Of course, we also took missions as groups to have fun together and level.

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