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  Wrender

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/04
Posts: 1426

The truth shall set you free!
The truth shall piss you off!

 
OP  3/29/11 5:02:45 PM#1

The problem isn't really MMO's in general ... it is the new MMO players. I guess I blame it on World of Warcraft. Yes WoW addicted many gamers that were new to MMO's to began playing them. Although I guess this can be viewed as a good thing it also has it's drawbacks. At least for me it does.

As an older gamer I have seen the role playing aspect of MMO;s rapidly decline after the release of WoW. The new generation of gamers  nowdays do not care about role playing, taking thier time, enjoying the journey anymore. Now it's just kil, kill, kill. Hell they don't even read the quests or even bother with an economy or tradeskills. I remember the days when I first starting playing MMO,s (Everquest, Asherons call 1 and 2, Everquest 2 even) I would take my time (I still do actually) pretend I was actually in the game world. I would read everything, learn the lore and talk in character at all times and had a blast doing it. It was my release from this harsh reality. I made many new friends along the way and my gaming time was vastly richer and more rewarding than any new game that I have played recently.

I have several real life friends that I try to play with on many occasions. Actually I hate playing with them because I have to completly change my mindset when I am grouped with them. They are almost impossible to follow around because all they do is run around questing and lvling like maniacs.. They wont help anyone  with any quests , it's all about them knowing what they need  to do to lvl up as fast as possible. They don't read anything and usually hits end game in every game they play in like 3-4 weeks. They don't craft, sell anything to ingame players, ignores chat pretty much completly, doesn't bother to set up thier UI. Simply sells every good item they pick up to an in game vendor if they can't use it themselves. They have no concept of what en emote even is. Then they bitch about the game being shitty and go back to WoW. I can't even understand why the hell they even plays an MMO. i can def see why they go back to WoW because they think it is the greatest thing since toilet paper. WoW is tailored to this type of gameplay. All they really want to do is play solo all the time and the only reason they group with me is because I know them in real life. Running a dungeon with them is sheer hell. Oh yeah then there is Ventrilo (Voice chat) Don't even get me started on voice chat!  Players like this are out in droves in new games these days. No new game with any depth is ever gonna please these type of players. So of course a new game is gonna add this type of gameplay to thier existing game if they want any chance of retaining thier subscribers. This trend in new games really disturbs me. No wonder why all people do now days when a new game comes out is bitch and moan about everything. No new game that is actually any good is gonna succeed with this kind of playerbase.  End game raid content is where it's at I guess for the time being. Am I a dying breed? Are there any players left anymore with my kind of mindset when it comes to living in a virtual world? Would love to hear you guys's comments on this one! !!

  Dibdabs

Elite Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2506

3/29/11 5:08:09 PM#2

Yeah, we know - this kind of thread pops up quite regularly.  You're preaching to the choir.

  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

3/29/11 5:22:18 PM#3

No, you are not alone. PnP games is the foundation of of the RPG part in the MMORPG games that we play. I would wager a great many younger players have not played a table top RPG game, thus they have no idea what you or I would be talking about. End game content, raiding, uber elite gear, blah, blah, blah..but they have no idea why they are actually killing the NPC, or care.

In hindsight, my favorite moments of PnP RPG games, like DnD were low level quests. I remember finding my first vorpal blade, meaning it would behead or dismember an opponent with a natural 20 or some nonsense. It was the FINAL QUEST item, after 4-5 hours playing...can you imagine that now!!! Do you remember fleeing from a monster? I do, b/c I had no idea it could hit for 19 damage/hit!! I think levels 1-8 or so were where the best storytelling was because everyone could easily be killed.

Finding a ring of protection +1 was exciting. Items were never the reason to adventure..solving the puzzle, figuring out why the townsfolk were dying, going insane, etc...that was important.

MMO's have definately lost this. I don't want to sound like a curmudgeon, but I don't know when it will return. I only find this now in some single player games like an old school RPG's like Vampire:The Masquerade or games of similar ilk.

Playing: Rust and Battlefield 4
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: The Repopulation

  Wrender

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/04
Posts: 1426

The truth shall set you free!
The truth shall piss you off!

 
OP  3/29/11 5:29:18 PM#4
Originally posted by CactusJack

No, you are not alone. PnP games is the foundation of of the RPG part in the MMORPG games that we play. I would wager a great many younger players have not played a table top RPG game, thus they have no idea what you or I would be talking about. End game content, raiding, uber elite gear, blah, blah, blah..but they have no idea why they are actually killing the NPC, or care.

In hindsight, my favorite moments of PnP RPG games, like DnD were low level quests. I remember finding my first vorpal blade, meaning it would behead or dismember an opponent with a natural 20 or some nonsense. It was the FINAL QUEST item, after 4-5 hours playing...can you imagine that now!!! Do you remember fleeing from a monster? I do, b/c I had no idea it could hit for 19 damage/hit!! I think levels 1-8 or so were where the best storytelling was because everyone could easily be killed.

Finding a ring of protection +1 was exciting. Items were never the reason to adventure..solving the puzzle, figuring out why the townsfolk were dying, going insane, etc...that was important.

MMO's have definately lost this. I don't want to sound like a curmudgeon, but I don't know when it will return. I only find this now in some single player games like an old school RPG's like Vampire:The Masquerade or games of similar ilk.

 Man Jack you bring back old memories indeed. If these type of games ever come back to an MMO I hope to god I'm still alive when it happens. And to think only about 10-12 yrs ago when MMO's were first emerging I always looked forwards to the near future when I was sure this type of gameplay would most certainly be the way of the future. Boy was i wrong! So sad. What the hell happened to people's imaginations?

EDIT: Ok maybe 20 yrs ago? Man ...! Where has the time gone?

  User Deleted
3/29/11 5:41:20 PM#5

I'm still confused why tenser had the time to create so many disk. I remember passing the DM a note...."hey mike i wanna backstab chris please roll the d20 for me!".... chris dude WTF?!

You rolled a 18, chris roll the saving throw.

 

haha yeah your bleeding to death and missed the saving throw and are posioned!

  Aglaranna

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/10
Posts: 199

3/29/11 5:41:32 PM#6

Count me in with the curmudgeons.

I miss the way games used to be, about the journey and the adventure, and not about the endgame. Just about everything you said in your post, OP, I would have said myself.

  Slapshot1188

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4193

3/29/11 5:47:58 PM#7

Agreed OP.

 

I've said it a few times recently.. but the original computer RPGs and the first wave of MMOs were created by guys that played computer games and/or PnP RPGs.  Usually both.   They enjoyed a more complex type of game where reward wasn't the "shiny in the chest" but the actual journey to get there.   Today's games are made to appeal to the biggest segment of the market.. and that is players who grew up on console games.   They are looking for more action oriented, fast-feedback gameplay.  Whatever needs to be done can fit into buttons on a controller or it's not important.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  JaggaSpikes

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 408

3/29/11 5:57:11 PM#8

MMORPGs got lost in translation. there are as many styles of role-play gaming as there are groups. it's simply impossible to convert all styles of playing, for example, D&D into single game. roleplayers, powergamers, munchkins, loonies. all want different things from the same game.

besides, most MMOs are not really role-playing. strategy game in campaign mode has more role-playing than some MMOs.

  Wrender

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/03/04
Posts: 1426

The truth shall set you free!
The truth shall piss you off!

 
OP  3/31/11 4:57:39 PM#9

Perhaps I should rename this thread, Why any new inovative MMO will fail. RIFT rocks.

  punkrock

Novice Member

Joined: 10/31/03
Posts: 1786

3/31/11 5:09:02 PM#10

i agree with the OP as well. i miss the old days alot.  i hope they do come back when the newer gen leaves to something else.

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  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 2006

3/31/11 5:23:33 PM#11

And for the record  there is a substantial difference between the old and new age gamer. Your thread proved it. Don't worry, there is going to be a title that caters to only the old school gamer and any new school gamer who wants a challenge. Ive been preaching this for a while that the new age games completely omit a community experience. Grouping games drastically enchances a community.

  Torik

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2328

3/31/11 5:30:21 PM#12
Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Agreed OP.

 

I've said it a few times recently.. but the original computer RPGs and the first wave of MMOs were created by guys that played computer games and/or PnP RPGs.  Usually both.   They enjoyed a more complex type of game where reward wasn't the "shiny in the chest" but the actual journey to get there.   Today's games are made to appeal to the biggest segment of the market.. and that is players who grew up on console games.   They are looking for more action oriented, fast-feedback gameplay.  Whatever needs to be done can fit into buttons on a controller or it's not important.

I really do not see how 'mindless PvP' and 'hardcore grind' are in any way representative of a PnP RPG background.  It is those early MMORPG developers who abandomned the core principles of PnP RPG and instead focused on making games where the players would repeat the same thing over and over for months/years.  A PnP group would boot their GM wihtout a second thought if he/she tried to feed them that kind of recycled content session after session. 

PnP RPG was always about meaningfull stories and the 'old school' MMORPG players lost track of it in their pursuit of an 'virtual world'.  Running a successfull PnP campaign was all about accessability and making the challenges meaningfull and fun.

  shawn01

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/08
Posts: 155

3/31/11 5:32:52 PM#13

My first MMo was Daoc. Took six months to level a toon to 50. I knew almost everyone in my realm by the time i was 50, and they knew me. Back then you had to group with people, or it became miserably difficult to advance. You would lose exp if you died, and you could literally stay the same level for days if you died too much.

Now i can level to 50 in a week, solo in a game like rift, and i didnt meet any new friends along the way. I grouped up a few times, to do dungeons, but rarely with the same person twice.

If you want to solo, and fight computer generated npcs as your endgame, why play an MMO?

Back when DaoC came out, the really cool thing for me was that people had to work together, and that they benefitted greatly by working together.

Daoc didnt seem linear like these new games do since WoW. I loved not having a map. I had to learn my way around and remember landmarks and routes to places. It was like a real place. Felt so much bigger without a map too.

I think you guys are right though, us older guys were different than todays player. We read books lol. We were computer nerds, playing with computers when they were not popular, or thought of as toys. My first computer was a commadore 64.

Now these young kids come from WoW, and they zerg every game, and i would imagine there is a tremendous amount of money to be made selling them their ez-mode theme parks.

Too bad there is no money for the kind of games that made you feel like you are in a real place, like things that you did mattered to the community, like you werent chasing a carrot you know you will never catch.

Id wish for DAoC 2, but at this point im sure it would end up a gear based game with scenarios and endless PvE grinding.

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

3/31/11 5:37:43 PM#14

See it like this: MMORPG's could be compared with how PnP RPG's would be played at school or college.

It was usually a small group with a taste for it and who loved that kind of immersion in playing a game that an PnP game could provide. It certainly wasn't a game that attracted everyone.

Now the game has opened up to the mainstream, from the sports jock to the cheerleader to the housewife and granny who all play that changed PnP RPG (using an analogy here), but they haven't adopted their mindset to it. Instead, the game has changed to provide for the way all those people like to play games.

So no, it isn't the same PnP RPG anymore as it was before it became mainstream.

 

A consolation: imo there are enough MMORPG's that will do things differently this year and the next one. In quite some interesting ways as well, you only have to take a look at GW2, TSW, ArcheAge, Firefall and who knows what WoD will bring. However, you'll have to share your gaming space with the jocks, cheerleaders, housewives, grannies and grandpas and all their approach to gaming as well, that's the way it is now

 

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  Hazzie

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/04
Posts: 15

3/31/11 7:08:12 PM#15

This thread has got me seriously depressed.

 

Makes me wish I could start up a PnP game, where the graphics are much much better (nothing beats your imagination), and your choices were limitless.

 

If only my old DM wasn't 3000 miles away.

  Shoju

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/06
Posts: 775

3/31/11 8:29:39 PM#16
Originally posted by Hazzie

This thread has got me seriously depressed.

 

Makes me wish I could start up a PnP game, where the graphics are much much better (nothing beats your imagination), and your choices were limitless.

 

If only my old DM wasn't 3000 miles away.

Maptools virtual tabletop (http://rptools.net/) and vent have worked me my gaming buddies and I in the past.

  TheCrow2k

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 956

3/31/11 8:37:39 PM#17
Originally posted by Eronakis

And for the record  there is a substantial difference between the old and new age gamer. Your thread proved it. Don't worry, there is going to be a title that caters to only the old school gamer and any new school gamer who wants a challenge. Ive been preaching this for a while that the new age games completely omit a community experience. Grouping games drastically enchances a community.

While I agree ample encouragement for grouping is a must in an MMORPG (infact I often argue if you want to solo then play single player games FFS) however complaints about "inability to solo" run rife in just about every MMO.

I Remember when Turbine finally succumbed to pressure and added solo instances in D&DO. The idea was the solo instances would only be for low levels and after that you would need a group..... but once they had given an inch well they kept adding more & more and changing other instances to allow solo play.... ugh.

I dunno one of the things that has driven me away from MMO's to some extent is the fact that most dont have anything to really encourage grouping anymore and then they wonder why everyone leaves after hitting max level without playing the extensive raid content they made..... duh I dunno but a lot of players just spent 50-80 levels soloing and now to progress you are telling them they have to work together in large groups.... lol its not gonna work people.

  Akarn1007

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/27/11
Posts: 46

3/31/11 9:26:13 PM#18

i could not agree more

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20596

3/31/11 11:10:29 PM#19

If you can't beat them, join them.

You need to enjoy MMO as it is today. Think of it as Diablo (a super fun game) with cities + AH.

And what is the deal about complaining the grouping not encouraged? You probably don't play WOW if you say that. Finding group is actually EASIER than EQ because it has a tool to do it. A lot of people level by running dungeons in WOW. WAY better than mob grind or quest grind.

My view is .. i will enjoy whatever the market has put out .. and if i start not liking it .. i can always switch entertainment. In today's world, there are so many entertainment options anyway.

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

3/31/11 11:48:03 PM#20
Originally posted by nariusseldon

You need to enjoy MMO as it is today. Think of it as Diablo (a super fun game) with cities + AH.

That's the problem right there - MMOs are single-player games for a massive number of people to play simultaneously.  They've been stuck in the tank/dps/healer rut for a decade.  They're only slowly evolving into something that attempts to entertain lots of people simultaneously.  These guys reminiscing about old PnP gaming are saying that they want something that gets them involved in an adventure with friends.  Processing monsters really doesn't qualify as an adventure.

The next generation MMO will be an adventure shared by a thousand people.

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