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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do you prefer ffa-pvp everywhere, only consensual, or something in-between?

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91 posts found
  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

4/01/11 8:41:40 AM#61
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Torik

The main problem with this setup is that the PVE players would have no incentive to play this game since they would be merely serfs to be robbed by any PvP player.  They do all the real work and the PvPers just steal it or extort it.   I don't play video games to have the bully 'steal my lunch money'. 

PvP players don't attack or steal or extort PvE players.  They attack, steal or extort from PvP assets.  It's up to the PvP guys to protect their assets, their lines of supply and so forth.

I've played EVE Online pretty much in the way I just described.  I'm suggesting a formalization based on that experience that would allow PvE player to focus on PvE and allow PvP players to focus on PvP.  That seems to be what each group really wants to do.  By trusting their player group, they can specialize in the activity that they most enjoy.

I was basing my comment on your statement "The stuff that a PvP raider could take would be anything that has been warehoused by the PvE guys".  This implies that anything a PvE player stores in his house, could be stolen by a PvP player.  

If PvPers can only pillage the property of other PvPers than the PvEers would not care.  However, it would also mean that the PvEers really had no reason to support the PvPers beside team loyalty (kind like a person who never played college sports would donate money to their old school's sports teams). 

  khanstruct

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 368

4/01/11 8:56:40 AM#62

I would definitely vote for a game with open PvP that enforces varying degrees of consequences in certain areas (from none to incredibly harsh).

I am not a combat-centric player, and have a personal, reserved loathing for griefers. However, even people who are crafters, or even just "role players" have to appreciate the need for PvP. I first realized this in Matrix Online (poorly executed game), which involved a lot of secret meetings and planning. One group would meet somewhere to discuss their plans, theories on what was happening, etc. But, if someone from an opposing faction showed up, you could do nothing about it. It turned into a lot of yelling at each other, "challenging" people to a duel (and them refusing), etc. It completely broke immersion and was almost laughable.

Once the server switched to open PvP, yes, it got much more dangerous. It was even frustrating at times when the griefing began (again the game was very poorly executed), but it made it a much more believable and enjoyable world.

  thorwood

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/07
Posts: 485

4/01/11 9:22:19 AM#63

I am PvE player.  I will play games with consentual PvP but usually will not play an open world non-consentual PvP. 

The one exception is that I did play Eve Online for a few months.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

4/01/11 10:02:54 AM#64

Nothing works better than RvR ala DAoC.

 

You can PvP to your hearts content, but avoid griefing by staying out of the frontier. It works perfectly.

Consequences with FFA seems pointless to me.

If PvP is fun, you want to ENCOURAGE people to do it, not try to stop them.

consequences either go to far, so people don't PvP, or they are not enough so people grief.

Impossible, IMO, to get the balance just right for all the players.

With RvR, you step into the frontier, you know what you're doing.

You don't want to get killed, don't go there.

  khanstruct

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 368

4/01/11 10:13:39 AM#65
Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Nothing works better than RvR ala DAoC.

 

You can PvP to your hearts content, but avoid griefing by staying out of the frontier. It works perfectly.

Consequences with FFA seems pointless to me.

If PvP is fun, you want to ENCOURAGE people to do it, not try to stop them.

consequences either go to far, so people don't PvP, or they are not enough so people grief.

Impossible, IMO, to get the balance just right for all the players.

With RvR, you step into the frontier, you know what you're doing.

You don't want to get killed, don't go there.

Consequences for PvP would work essentially the same, but also allow for varying levels in between. For instance, in the "Frontier" there would be no consequences, in safe areas, the penalties would be harsh (maybe people wouldn't PvP then; great! But they still have the option if they really, really want to and think its worth it). Then you have other areas that could be dangerous because penalties for PvP are less, but not low enough to fill the area with griefers.

Saying "just don't go there" isn't fair to the explorer players who don't necessarily like combat.

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/01/11 10:18:39 AM#66
Originally posted by Torik 

If PvPers can only pillage the property of other PvPers than the PvEers would not care.  However, it would also mean that the PvEers really had no reason to support the PvPers beside team loyalty (kind like a person who never played college sports would donate money to their old school's sports teams). 

The PvE players care about the loss of PvP assets because they're using those assets.  To be more clear, asset ownership is controlled by the PvP guys while the PvE guys make use of those assets.  If PvP ownership changes, then the PvE guys are denied use.  The PvP guys are using certain assets as well, but they are entirely geared to PvP.  For example, a siege engine.  PvP personal gear can follow whatever rules you like because that gear vanishes when a given PvP player logs out.

As a PvE example, the smithy shop that my PvE character uses is a PvP asset.  PvE guys built it using the mine and forest controlled by the PvP guys, but my PvE character operates the smithy shop to manufacture armor and weapons for the PvP guys.  I can do so because I have been given access by the PvP guys.  If PvP enemies show up and capture the smithy shop, then my character can no longer use it.

If I want to, I can try to join the new owners in hopes of running the same shop.  They might welcome me with open arms and give me access to the shop - or they might tell me to hit the road.  If the PvP guys that I used to work with find out that I tried to change loyalties, they may kick me out of their organization.

At that point, I have to go and find a new PvP group to work for - or I can go off to a neutral town that is entirely NPC-based.  There I can do classic PvE work that goes into the town market.  I'm supporting the NPC town, but not a PvP group.

A variation on this where an asset becomes 'live' is having a bunch of PvE guys transport a bunch of goods or raw materials.  The PvE guys do all the transport work with horse and wagon, but PvP guys would be needed to protect the cargo.  If enemies show up, they can fight to gain the cargo.  If they win, the PvE guys that they brought along would then drive the cargo where they want it to go.

Because PvE guys can't leave the influence of their PvP lords, at least one attacking PvP character would have to stay with the PvE guys to make sure they don't run away.  So now you've got to defend your own PvE guys so that they aren't scattered and become unable to move the cargo.

Heck, a castle assault could require PvP guys to do the actual fighting and also have a bunch of PvE guys in support.  They'd be digging fortifications, building siege engines, transporting supplies and so on.  But they'd never fight, and they'd run away anytime a bad guy shows up.

I figure this would allow for FFA PvP while players interested in PvE could be right in the thick of things and contribute through PvE tasks.  But PvE players wouldn't be capable of directly influencing the outcome of any conflicts.  If they want to do that, they have to operate subject to the PvP rules.  An interesting question would be whether or not PvP characters could do PvE tasks.  I suspect that it would work out if they could.

  khanstruct

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 368

4/01/11 10:37:49 AM#67

The problem with this is that games are rarely geared towards relying on other players except when it comes to combat (healer, tank, etc.) I have yet to see a game where the gear made by players is actually worth anything; especially to the serious PvP player.

"You could never make armor as "epic" as the armor dropped by dragon X in la-la-land mountain."

In a PvP based game, non-combat players are all but useless.

  rottN

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 171

4/01/11 10:42:22 AM#68
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Torik 

If PvPers can only pillage the property of other PvPers than the PvEers would not care.  However, it would also mean that the PvEers really had no reason to support the PvPers beside team loyalty (kind like a person who never played college sports would donate money to their old school's sports teams). 

The PvE players care about the loss of PvP assets because they're using those assets.  To be more clear, asset ownership is controlled by the PvP guys while the PvE guys make use of those assets.  If PvP ownership changes, then the PvE guys are denied use.  The PvP guys are using certain assets as well, but they are entirely geared to PvP.  For example, a siege engine.  PvP personal gear can follow whatever rules you like because that gear vanishes when a given PvP player logs out.

As a PvE example, the smithy shop that my PvE character uses is a PvP asset.  PvE guys built it using the mine and forest controlled by the PvP guys, but my PvE character operates the smithy shop to manufacture armor and weapons for the PvP guys.  I can do so because I have been given access by the PvP guys.  If PvP enemies show up and capture the smithy shop, then my character can no longer use it.

If I want to, I can try to join the new owners in hopes of running the same shop.  They might welcome me with open arms and give me access to the shop - or they might tell me to hit the road.  If the PvP guys that I used to work with find out that I tried to change loyalties, they may kick me out of their organization.

At that point, I have to go and find a new PvP group to work for - or I can go off to a neutral town that is entirely NPC-based.  There I can do classic PvE work that goes into the town market.  I'm supporting the NPC town, but not a PvP group.

A variation on this where an asset becomes 'live' is having a bunch of PvE guys transport a bunch of goods or raw materials.  The PvE guys do all the transport work with horse and wagon, but PvP guys would be needed to protect the cargo.  If enemies show up, they can fight to gain the cargo.  If they win, the PvE guys that they brought along would then drive the cargo where they want it to go.

Because PvE guys can't leave the influence of their PvP lords, at least one attacking PvP character would have to stay with the PvE guys to make sure they don't run away.  So now you've got to defend your own PvE guys so that they aren't scattered and become unable to move the cargo.

Heck, a castle assault could require PvP guys to do the actual fighting and also have a bunch of PvE guys in support.  They'd be digging fortifications, building siege engines, transporting supplies and so on.  But they'd never fight, and they'd run away anytime a bad guy shows up.

I figure this would allow for FFA PvP while players interested in PvE could be right in the thick of things and contribute through PvE tasks.  But PvE players wouldn't be capable of directly influencing the outcome of any conflicts.  If they want to do that, they have to operate subject to the PvP rules.  An interesting question would be whether or not PvP characters could do PvE tasks.  I suspect that it would work out if they could.

Then you would need 4 factions ? 2 PVP factions and 2 PVE.. or else it dosent manke sence to me

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/01/11 10:59:00 AM#69
Originally posted by rottN

Then you would need 4 factions ? 2 PVP factions and 2 PVE.. or else it dosent manke sence to me

The game would have many factions.  Each faction would consist of PvP combatants and their PvE support.  It's analogous to nations with soldiers and civilians.  Alternately, kingdoms with knights and peasants.

  rottN

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 171

4/01/11 11:04:15 AM#70

Oki, so lets say you had 2 factions where you`d choose to be a pvp`r or pve`r.

How would that work out if one faction was to be over populated ? Then you would end up with a huge problem on one side where you wouldent be able to get anything done if you were a pve`r. And the same would go for having more factions..

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

4/01/11 12:07:57 PM#71
Originally posted by JB47394

As a PvE example, the smithy shop that my PvE character uses is a PvP asset.  PvE guys built it using the mine and forest controlled by the PvP guys, but my PvE character operates the smithy shop to manufacture armor and weapons for the PvP guys.  I can do so because I have been given access by the PvP guys.  If PvP enemies show up and capture the smithy shop, then my character can no longer use it.

If I want to, I can try to join the new owners in hopes of running the same shop.  They might welcome me with open arms and give me access to the shop - or they might tell me to hit the road.  If the PvP guys that I used to work with find out that I tried to change loyalties, they may kick me out of their organization.

At that point, I have to go and find a new PvP group to work for - or I can go off to a neutral town that is entirely NPC-based.  There I can do classic PvE work that goes into the town market.  I'm supporting the NPC town, but not a PvP group.

So the PvE guys would do the work of building and maintaining the assets like a smithy but the PvP players would own it and could deny the PvEers access to those assets?

Why would any sane PvEer choose not to work out of an NPC town where the 'fruits of their labour' are theirs to control and not taken at the whim of freeloading PvPers?

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/01/11 1:08:01 PM#72
Originally posted by Torik

Why would any sane PvEer choose not to work out of an NPC town where the 'fruits of their labour' are theirs to control and not taken at the whim of freeloading PvPers?

1. PvE work in an NPC town is turned over to the NPC town just as PvE work in a PvP town is turned over to the PvP town.  The goal of PvE gameplay is not to accumulate stuff for yourself, but for your team.  So everyone in an NPC town would be working to increase the quality of life in that town, making more PvE activities available, etc.  A PvE guild might take over a town to 'level it up'.

2. PvP players who treat their team members poorly will lose those team members.  PvE players will just go and work for another faction, boosting their infrastructure and making the PvP from that faction all the tougher.  PvP and PvE players cooperate to be most successful.

Edit: I should probably add that there's no real reason that the PvP guys have to be in charge.  PvE leaders are just as practical as PvP leaders.  I was just thinking in terms of medieval warlords and their peasants.  But it could just as easily be a modern nation with a professional army.  If the leaders of the nation take away access to PvP assets from their soldiers, the soldiers are just stuck.  If they don't like it, they can leave and join another faction.

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

4/01/11 1:26:40 PM#73
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Torik

Why would any sane PvEer choose not to work out of an NPC town where the 'fruits of their labour' are theirs to control and not taken at the whim of freeloading PvPers?

1. PvE work in an NPC town is turned over to the NPC town just as PvE work in a PvP town is turned over to the PvP town.  The goal of PvE gameplay is not to accumulate stuff for yourself, but for your team.  So everyone in an NPC town would be working to increase the quality of life in that town, making more PvE activities available, etc.  A PvE guild might take over a town to 'level it up'.

2. PvP players who treat their team members poorly will lose those team members.  PvE players will just go and work for another faction, boosting their infrastructure and making the PvP from that faction all the tougher.  PvP and PvE players cooperate to be most successful.

Edit: I should probably add that there's no real reason that the PvP guys have to be in charge.  PvE leaders are just as practical as PvP leaders.  I was just thinking in terms of medieval warlords and their peasants.  But it could just as easily be a modern nation with a professional army.  If the leaders of the nation take away access to PvP assets from their soldiers, the soldiers are just stuck.  If they don't like it, they can leave and join another faction.

Generally, the person who controls access to resources is the one in charge.  If the PvPers can bar the PvEer from access to resources than they are in charge. 

The question still remains why would the PvEer not simply settle in an NPC town.  An NPC town would not need an army of PvPers so the PvEer would not have to support them and could instead use all their resources on 'increasing the quality of life' for themselves.  In that setting PvPers are a complete waste to have around.

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/01/11 1:54:04 PM#74
Originally posted by Torik

Generally, the person who controls access to resources is the one in charge.  If the PvPers can bar the PvEer from access to resources than they are in charge. 

The PvP guys fight over which faction controls a resource or asset, but it is the leaders within the faction that determine who gets access to what.  That's true whether they are PvE or PvP.

Originally posted by Torik

The question still remains why would the PvEer not simply settle in an NPC town.  An NPC town would not need an army of PvPers so the PvEer would not have to support them and could instead use all their resources on 'increasing the quality of life' for themselves.  In that setting PvPers are a complete waste to have around.

One reason is so that you're part of a faction in the game world; you're a participant in the grand game of empire building.  These are multiplayer games and the assumption is that you want to b part of a team that accomplishes something instead of simply accumulating stuff for yourself.  There are plenty of games for the latter.

Another reason is that, like EVE Online, the high value PvE is in PvP land.  If you want to craft the low end items and hunt low end game and such, stick with an NPC town.  If you want to craft the high end items and hunt high end game, you join a faction that controls the right resources and assets.

The same game systems exist in the NPC town as in a PvP town, but the PvP town has the potential for grander achievements.

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

4/01/11 4:12:42 PM#75
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Torik

Generally, the person who controls access to resources is the one in charge.  If the PvPers can bar the PvEer from access to resources than they are in charge. 

The PvP guys fight over which faction controls a resource or asset, but it is the leaders within the faction that determine who gets access to what.  That's true whether they are PvE or PvP.

Originally posted by Torik

The question still remains why would the PvEer not simply settle in an NPC town.  An NPC town would not need an army of PvPers so the PvEer would not have to support them and could instead use all their resources on 'increasing the quality of life' for themselves.  In that setting PvPers are a complete waste to have around.

One reason is so that you're part of a faction in the game world; you're a participant in the grand game of empire building.  These are multiplayer games and the assumption is that you want to b part of a team that accomplishes something instead of simply accumulating stuff for yourself.  There are plenty of games for the latter.

Another reason is that, like EVE Online, the high value PvE is in PvP land.  If you want to craft the low end items and hunt low end game and such, stick with an NPC town.  If you want to craft the high end items and hunt high end game, you join a faction that controls the right resources and assets.

The same game systems exist in the NPC town as in a PvP town, but the PvP town has the potential for grander achievements.

What I am trying to get across is that for a pure PvEer your game would be strictly inferior to an almost identical game without the PvP.  Given a choice between the two a PvEer would not play yours unless he/she wanted to meddle in PvP as well.

You seem to be under the impression that the PvEers would want to join PvP factions out of team loyalty and to hang out with the 'cool kids'.  Any PvEer who simply wants to build and progress will see no benefit to that and will.  They will prefer to team up with other PvEers to better cooperate on PvE projects.

You are trying up to set up the game world in such a way that the pure PvEers benefit from the PvPers when in fact the biggest benefit for them would be to simply get rid of the PvPers.  They would have access to all the best resources unhindered and could build up their towns without fear of having all their hard work taken over by someone who did none of the work.

  shawn01

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/08
Posts: 148

4/01/11 8:17:13 PM#76
Originally posted by khanstruct

The problem with this is that games are rarely geared towards relying on other players except when it comes to combat (healer, tank, etc.) I have yet to see a game where the gear made by players is actually worth anything; especially to the serious PvP player.

"You could never make armor as "epic" as the armor dropped by dragon X in la-la-land mountain."

In a PvP based game, non-combat players are all but useless.

Again, DaoC has a crafting system that is actually useful. You will probably have a couple of drop pieces in your template, but usually you will have at least 3 crafted pieces as well. In the old days before WoW tainted the universe, even the DAoC universe, people went around in fully player crafted gear.

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/02/11 12:57:15 AM#77
Originally posted by Torik

What I am trying to get across is that for a pure PvEer your game would be strictly inferior to an almost identical game without the PvP.  Given a choice between the two a PvEer would not play yours unless he/she wanted to meddle in PvP as well.

You seem to be under the impression that the PvEers would want to join PvP factions out of team loyalty and to hang out with the 'cool kids'.  Any PvEer who simply wants to build and progress will see no benefit to that and will.  They will prefer to team up with other PvEers to better cooperate on PvE projects.

You are trying up to set up the game world in such a way that the pure PvEers benefit from the PvPers when in fact the biggest benefit for them would be to simply get rid of the PvPers.  They would have access to all the best resources unhindered and could build up their towns without fear of having all their hard work taken over by someone who did none of the work.

If that's your opinion, that's fine.  I figure that such a game could easily catch on like wildfire because PvE actions would no longer be performed in a motivation vacuum.  That's my opinion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

  User Deleted
4/03/11 10:43:24 AM#78
Originally posted by mrcalhou

I, personally, love Eve-online's pvp system. While it's technically ffa-pvp everywhere, the consequences in many systems makes random pvp happen extremely infrequently in those areas, while pvp is actually encouraged in other parts of the game map.

Lately, however, it seems that a lot of games are coming out where pvp is being forced on the playerbase from the moment they log-in. Now, this isn't necassarily wrong in and of itself, but with the knowledge that it drives away so many potential players, why do developers still do it? These games also never seem to get the consequences for pvp balanced in such a way that there are times when it would make sense, from a strategic perspective, to not attack someone.

While I don't mind consensual pvp, it does take away a good chunk of emergent-characteristics from MMOs and I'm pretty bored with those types of games since they seem to be a dime a dozen.

I'd like to see something in-between: like a game with twitch combat mechanics (though better than what Darkfall and Xsyon offer), but a pvp system where players can play the game and not feel worried about getting ganked all the time, while there would also be content and resources unique to pvp areas to encourage players to go play in those areas.

 

What are your opinions?

 I prefer FFA PVP anywhere anytime for any reason, PROVIDED game mechanics also allow for players to form groups, and build defensible territory. There do of course need to be some concessions made to deal with real life, and noobs should have a safe place to learn before setting out.

  Ragemaster

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/04
Posts: 133

4/04/11 10:33:53 AM#79
Originally posted by Otakun

It boils down to the point that FFA OWPvP fits a niche market or in a more common term it doesn't please casual gamers. People who like FFA OWPvP will still play a game without it as long as the PvP is good in general but casual gamers will not play a game with FFA OWPvP cause they will get frustrated and quit.

Personally my problem with FFA OWPvP is that people will generally kill you for no reason other then just to do it and possibly grief you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it unless you happen to have friends online who care enough to help you. This basically says, "Well, you can play this game unless someone else wants to come around and ruin your day." cause other then sitting around and getting killed over and over your only option is to log off and that is a game that I wont pay for. I wouldn't mind a B2P MMO that has FFA OWPvP cause then I ain't losing money when not playing.

Doesnt please casual gamers? Fuck casual gamers! Why do so many game companies put casual gamer atop a holy grail, like its the ONLY way to build a successful game. CCP has done quite well without casul gamers for YEARS, and continue to do so. I think the problem is too many compaines cater to casual gamers, and create the watered down / ultra streamline effect we have come to see in NOT just MMOS but traditional games as well. That, combined with big publishers run by suits and not developers who only care about *MASSIVE* ROI are also to blame for the dumbing down we see in many many games.

As for FFA OWPVP, your right TO AN EXTENT, the problem is many games dont have checks and balances, to balance the wolves and the sheep. There needs to be an incentive for lambs to risk venturing into the forest where the wolves are lurking. If the game has a skewed Risk vs reward system, it will be elitist jerk land with only a handful of griefers (aka darkfall and MO). In EVE you are relatively safe in highsec barring the odd suicide gank or wardeck. Not 100% safe, but relatively. Carebears in eve, as it were, aren't second class citizens either. They play an important role in the economy and manufacturing side of things, as well, things that many PVP players never do let alone think about, yet it effects us every day we play. All those t2 ammo, mods ships dont just appear out of thin air.

One game besides EVE I thought got it right was Dark age of Camelot. They had open world PVP, non instanced, faction based(3 sides). The leveling and PVE side of the game however was completely seperate from the frontiers, or PVP side of the game. The pvp side of the game was also pretty large, and featured castles and towers to fight over as well. There was also a PVP dungeon, darkness falls, which was highly coveted as whoever controlled the most towers controlled the portal to the dungeon, making it for constantly in contention. It had all the merits of a good pvp game, but with none of the side effects like griefing. Why it hasnt been replicated, I do not know.

I believe PVP based games are possible ,and I dont think casual gamers are the end all be all, and that sooner or later a developer WILL hit it right, and Ill have an alterantive to EVE, preferably in a medieval / fantasy setting, but until then, eve will continue to get all my subs that the devs earned, which is more than I can say for alot of WOW clones who keep trying to cash in big on someone elses idea.

ragemaster9999 Xfire Miniprofile
  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

4/04/11 11:51:49 AM#80
Originally posted by Ragemaster

Why do so many game companies put casual gamer atop a holy grail, like its the ONLY way to build a successful game. CCP has done quite well without casul gamers for YEARS, and continue to do so.

Because the number of casual gamers dwarfs the number of serious gamers.  The business case is obvious.

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