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Star Wars Galaxies

Star Wars Galaxies 

SWG Veteran Refuge  » Every sand box is compared to this game Pre CU

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21 posts found
  shane782

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/11
Posts: 23

 
OP  3/05/11 10:48:23 PM#1

I played SWG for six years and sometimes i still go back to check it out.

What i dont understand is if everyone talks about how great it used to be and unique it was why wouldnt sony listen and go back.

I understand the old system was buggy and needed alot of fixing but think about every forum you have seen this game brought up and talked about. Would the cost of fixing it or launching an SWG II be more than all the money they would make from the returning players and new players. 

Ive tried just about every game under the sun since SWG and none compare to the old Pre CU. Fallen earth is close but the combat is weak. If i wanted to play a FPS game i would go to a consule. The rest of the sandbox games dont hold your attention long enough. The Old Republic looks like it might be cool but itll be a theme park.

Maybe I am wrong but this game was unique it was difficult its community was insane and the classes were endless combinations that kept everyone different in their own way. Sure there were flavors of the month but thats always going to happen.

If you have never played this game download the free trial and you will see it still looks amazing still has alot to offer and its only a 1/4 of what it used to be.

Sorry if this seems like whining im just tired of going through games looking for one i like and always coming back to the same thing ...... SONY IS HOLDING ONE OF THE GREATEST GAMES HOSTAGE 

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

3/05/11 11:00:45 PM#2

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

  shane782

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/11
Posts: 23

 
OP  3/06/11 12:43:40 AM#3

Yes still sad though that it has to be that way.... this game could of been so great and instead it is what it is. JTl was good though the space aspect of SWG had a huge following , Not by myself. Even though the crafting features were amazing and the space mechanics i was a pvp player i enjoyed the diversity of the combat classes

  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2140

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

3/07/11 8:59:10 AM#4

I'm convinced there won't be another game like Pre-CU SWG for three simple reasons:

1)  The game gave players too much.  Everything in the game came as a result of play.  If you wanted something--anything--you either crafted it or traded for it.  Therefore, the publishers couldn't make money off the players beyond the $50 box price and $15 a month.

2)  The game empowered players and playing too much.  Early SWG gave people a reason to log on and play.  Publishers today want to give players reasons not to play, so they have the motivation to buy stuff at the item store in order to make play enjoyable again.

3)  The game needed a 'hands on' GM staff.  It was set up for dynamic encounters with paid staff.  It also required a responsive CSR team to maintain the integrity of play.  Today's publishers don't want to oversee a game.  They want to sit back, collect their fees, and let the game run itself.

Was SWG a good game?  It was a good game for the players, but a bad game for all the producers who are constantly preoccupied with the question of "how can we monetize this thing?"

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 556

3/07/11 9:19:59 AM#5

I'll freely admit I am one of those players that gets a little misty eyed at memories of a pre-CU SWG.

Yes the game itself arguably ran out of steam once you had swapped a few setups around, had millions of credits etc. but it was the community that made it what it was. I believe this had a lot to do with the fact you could only have 1 character per server. So people played maturely and in a community minded way because they had a reputation to uphold. This rings true of the economy too - I spent ages surveying for resources because my doctor buffs were among some of the best on the server and I didn't want to lose customers by putting out an inferior product.

Coupled with that, people made their own entertainment. I went to countless weddings, parties, fireworks shows, theatrical productions, races, krayt hunting expeditions which kept me online for hours. This kind of stuff just doesn't happen much anymore (even on RP servers AFAIK) because theme parks don't create a good environment for it - they give you everything up front and push you to do it. I know my attitude in more modern games these days is that if I am online chatting or messing around then I am "wasting time" when I should be chasing xp or gear or something. This is how a theme park game wants you to feel.

I don't believe a game like pre-CU SWG will ever exist again, mostly for commerical reasons as people have stated above. But also because SWG got lucky. SOE/Lucasarts created an environment which players took into their hearts and brought to life. I don't think any of the things in the design of the game made it what it was particularly (other than the fact it was a sandbox perhaps), it was the players who did it. No developer can now take the financial risk and try to recreate this, hoping players will do the rest. I think that MMO players have, on the whole, become much less community minded (how often do I hear people complaining they can't solo something or whining about the time it takes to find a group...). Players want what they want NOW and playing a game to meet and cooperate with others seems to be a very distant ambition to most logging on to any game today.

@ OP - SOE is expert at holding great games hostage. Just look at how they have choked Vanguard to near death to protect their precious EQ2 and destroyed something which could have been a fantastic game.

  Antaran

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/07
Posts: 581

The only thing required for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

3/07/11 9:34:53 AM#6

I started SWG just after the CU your talking about and i loved the game so much i stuck it out even after the NGE, i've left since as there is nothign to do these days, no economy due to no decay, also means crafting is pointless. It's become the usual crap instead of remaining a great game on it's own merit.

I'm not too keen on pre-CU myself (playing now and then on the SWGEMU) but it is better than what the retail game is these days, god how i miss all those skill choices and having to gain specific xp/skill for each weapon and skill box. My main avatar holds the title to 95% of the Master <Class> titles because i wanted to collect them all before going Jedi, i remained a crafter for most of my time specifically ShipWright due to my love for space and the fact that i could make a load of money undercutting the average merchant, i mined my own resourses instead of buying them so it was pure profit no matter what price i charged.

Oh the good old days..

Personally i'm in the "bring out an SWG2 and make it pre NGE crowd" however we all know deep in our hearts that we've lost the version of the game we loved so much.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5099

3/07/11 9:40:31 AM#7
Originally posted by Vonatar

I'll freely admit I am one of those players that gets a little misty eyed at memories of a pre-CU SWG.

Yes the game itself arguably ran out of steam once you had swapped a few setups around, had millions of credits etc. but it was the community that made it what it was. I believe this had a lot to do with the fact you could only have 1 character per server. So people played maturely and in a community minded way because they had a reputation to uphold. This rings true of the economy too - I spent ages surveying for resources because my doctor buffs were among some of the best on the server and I didn't want to lose customers by putting out an inferior product.

Coupled with that, people made their own entertainment. I went to countless weddings, parties, fireworks shows, theatrical productions, races, krayt hunting expeditions which kept me online for hours. This kind of stuff just doesn't happen much anymore (even on RP servers AFAIK) because theme parks don't create a good environment for it - they give you everything up front and push you to do it. I know my attitude in more modern games these days is that if I am online chatting or messing around then I am "wasting time" when I should be chasing xp or gear or something. This is how a theme park game wants you to feel.

I don't believe a game like pre-CU SWG will ever exist again, mostly for commerical reasons as people have stated above. But also because SWG got lucky. SOE/Lucasarts created an environment which players took into their hearts and brought to life. I don't think any of the things in the design of the game made it what it was particularly (other than the fact it was a sandbox perhaps), it was the players who did it. No developer can now take the financial risk and try to recreate this, hoping players will do the rest. I think that MMO players have, on the whole, become much less community minded (how often do I hear people complaining they can't solo something or whining about the time it takes to find a group...). Players want what they want NOW and playing a game to meet and cooperate with others seems to be a very distant ambition to most logging on to any game today.

@ OP - SOE is expert at holding great games hostage. Just look at how they have choked Vanguard to near death to protect their precious EQ2 and destroyed something which could have been a fantastic game.

Though i think SOE's biggest problem was that the 200k subs they had, didnt look good compared to WoW's inflated subs, and chasing that target led them to make one mistake after another... the problems at SWG had nothing to do with Lucas Arts, though obviously, LA didnt do anything to stop SOE making a mess of things..  SWG's community was the best i have ever seen, from crafters, to those who dealt in resources, pelts or ores etc, to pvp'ers of either side, or those who just liked to fly tie fighters or X - wings,  dancers and .. clothes designers/makers..  even doctors.. if there was an aspect of gameplay that wasnt covered by SWG.. im not sure what it was..  well SOE messed up because they got greedy.. and the players paid the price. and thats why SWG lost like, 85 percent of its playerbase, within weeks of the NGE going live.. SOE managed to do something incredible, they broke the game. their still trying to fix it.. but.. their no closer to fixing it now than they were 2 years ago.

  rmason

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 148

3/07/11 9:42:36 AM#8
Originally posted by Leoghan

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

I thought SOE had an official statement saying they wanted to make the game more user friendly, i.e. like WoW to retain their subs?

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

3/07/11 9:47:07 AM#9

You are right that Pre CU this game was quite unique but I doubt very much that every sandbox created is compared to what this game was. More likely they would be compared to UO, which was the iconic sandbox MMOG. And for me Asherons Call was a sandbox game more suited for me as sci-fi setting really does not appeal much to me, unless it is space exclusively like Eve.

  tort0429

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/09
Posts: 289

3/07/11 9:48:14 AM#10
Originally posted by Beatnik59

I'm convinced there won't be another game like Pre-CU SWG for three simple reasons:

1)  The game gave players too much.  Everything in the game came as a result of play.  If you wanted something--anything--you either crafted it or traded for it.  Therefore, the publishers couldn't make money off the players beyond the $50 box price and $15 a month.

2)  The game empowered players and playing too much.  Early SWG gave people a reason to log on and play.  Publishers today want to give players reasons not to play, so they have the motivation to buy stuff at the item store in order to make play enjoyable again.

3)  The game needed a 'hands on' GM staff.  It was set up for dynamic encounters with paid staff.  It also required a responsive CSR team to maintain the integrity of play.  Today's publishers don't want to oversee a game.  They want to sit back, collect their fees, and let the game run itself.

Was SWG a good game?  It was a good game for the players, but a bad game for all the producers who are constantly preoccupied with the question of "how can we monetize this thing?"

And this ^ is the real reason the games are the way they are today.  Quickly put together, released before they should be, unfinished and buggy, bland and uninteresting.

The genre took a serious turn for the worse.  I wonder if it's even possible to ever go back to the ol EQ, SWG days of gameing.   I doubt it. Probably time to move on.  Sniff, sniff....

  User Deleted
3/07/11 9:54:01 AM#11
Originally posted by Yamota

You are right that Pre CU this game was quite unique but I doubt very much that every sandbox created is compared to what this game was. More likely they would be compared to UO, which was the iconic sandbox MMOG. And for me Asherons Call was a sandbox game more suited for me as sci-fi setting really does not appeal much to me, unless it is space exclusively like Eve.

This. Aside from the raft of SWG vets, i'd hesitate to suggest that far more people think of UO than swg when it comes to sandboxes.

  Gruug

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 1139

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

3/07/11 10:00:42 AM#12
Originally posted by Yamota

You are right that Pre CU this game was quite unique but I doubt very much that every sandbox created is compared to what this game was. More likely they would be compared to UO, which was the iconic sandbox MMOG. And for me Asherons Call was a sandbox game more suited for me as sci-fi setting really does not appeal much to me, unless it is space exclusively like Eve.

 

This ^^^^, though I would say that since many people haven't played UO or AC that mostly former pre-CU SWG players make these comparisons. The only thing that I can say about SWG (played since beta and well past NGE) is that it once had the best crafting system of any MMO I have played before or since pre-CU. The other thing I would say is that it had a lot of room for adding things  to make it worth while logging on. If you were not into PvP or crafting, there was not much there. But, there could have been without going to the extreme of CU and then finally NGE.

Let's party like it is 1863!

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

3/07/11 10:09:12 AM#13
Originally posted by rmason
Originally posted by Leoghan

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

I thought SOE had an official statement saying they wanted to make the game more user friendly, i.e. like WoW to retain their subs?

There was a rumor going that Luca's son played it and got upset because he couldn't unlock Jedi and play as one. That's just a rumor mind you, but it has been thrown around. Knowing Lucas and his uncanny desired to destroy everything people love about Star Wars he and SOE are a match made in hell. 

  Leoghan

Novice Member

Joined: 12/27/03
Posts: 611

3/07/11 10:15:08 AM#14
Originally posted by Gruug
Originally posted by Yamota

You are right that Pre CU this game was quite unique but I doubt very much that every sandbox created is compared to what this game was. More likely they would be compared to UO, which was the iconic sandbox MMOG. And for me Asherons Call was a sandbox game more suited for me as sci-fi setting really does not appeal much to me, unless it is space exclusively like Eve.

 

This ^^^^, though I would say that since many people haven't played UO or AC that mostly former pre-CU SWG players make these comparisons. The only thing that I can say about SWG (played since beta and well past NGE) is that it once had the best crafting system of any MMO I have played before or since pre-CU. The other thing I would say is that it had a lot of room for adding things  to make it worth while logging on. If you were not into PvP or crafting, there was not much there. But, there could have been without going to the extreme of CU and then finally NGE.

All they really had to do was add quests in. I'm sure balancing for all the varied  skill combos would have been a bit of a nightmare, but honestly if they built it so that a tank build, DPS build and Healer build could do it then they would have covered most of the players adventuring builds at least. 

  Valeran

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/08
Posts: 972

3/07/11 4:46:25 PM#15
Originally posted by Leoghan
Originally posted by rmason
Originally posted by Leoghan

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

I thought SOE had an official statement saying they wanted to make the game more user friendly, i.e. like WoW to retain their subs?

There was a rumor going that Luca's son played it and got upset because he couldn't unlock Jedi and play as one. That's just a rumor mind you, but it has been thrown around. Knowing Lucas and his uncanny desired to destroy everything people love about Star Wars he and SOE are a match made in hell. 

We already know why it happened...it came from the developer and producer that hatched the plan.  LEC's sin was buying the tripe fed to them by SOE by approving the change.

--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism

"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2607

3/07/11 4:50:22 PM#16

I've never thought every sandbox was compared to SWG.  Instead, every sandbox seems to me as if it has far more in common with UO, seeing as how so many games try to copy it feature by feature, including the FFA PVP which SWG did not have.

To me, Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE will always represent the evolution of the ideas behind Ultima Online whereas games like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Earthrise (sans sci-fi setting) more often than not resemble a sad nostalgia trip

  User Deleted
3/07/11 4:58:15 PM#17
Originally posted by Leoghan

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

It is funny how I have heard some of the Old Republic devs say "Heroic" and "Iconic" in many of their videos showing the game.We all remember those words well in SWG and funny how that Lucas Arts is part of this Bioware project so......By the way WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH Lucas Arts Right Now? They had Awesom games like Star Wars Battlefront series and Republic Commando and since Next Gen is here all we get is Lego Star Wars BS,and Force Unleashed crap? Lucas Arts is out of touch with its gamers and thats why they are facing Finance difficulties.Make Battle Front 3 and Republic Commando Oder 66 with next gen technology and you might make a profit for once.

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

3/07/11 7:27:07 PM#18
Originally posted by Leoghan

There are lots of rumors that the changes had to do with Lucas Arts and not sony. Some of that I believe, but also keep in mind that Wow launched right around the time of Jump to light speed and the already dwindling subs fell even more. Now really a lot of that was because there was so little to do once you did max out your skills, and the journey to do so had so little to offer.

What most people I remember (in game) enjoyed about SWG pre-CU was the game play mechanics, what they lamented was the lack of meaningful ways to use them. Instead of addressing this they scapped the whole system. This basically drove most of the remaining customers away and really meant most wouldn't come back even when new features they wanted were added. 

read the Jeff Freeman Revelation Archive. Its all there. 

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

3/07/11 7:37:59 PM#19
Originally posted by tort0429
Originally posted by Beatnik59

I'm convinced there won't be another game like Pre-CU SWG for three simple reasons:

1)  The game gave players too much.  Everything in the game came as a result of play.  If you wanted something--anything--you either crafted it or traded for it.  Therefore, the publishers couldn't make money off the players beyond the $50 box price and $15 a month.

2)  The game empowered players and playing too much.  Early SWG gave people a reason to log on and play.  Publishers today want to give players reasons not to play, so they have the motivation to buy stuff at the item store in order to make play enjoyable again.

3)  The game needed a 'hands on' GM staff.  It was set up for dynamic encounters with paid staff.  It also required a responsive CSR team to maintain the integrity of play.  Today's publishers don't want to oversee a game.  They want to sit back, collect their fees, and let the game run itself.

Was SWG a good game?  It was a good game for the players, but a bad game for all the producers who are constantly preoccupied with the question of "how can we monetize this thing?"

And this ^ is the real reason the games are the way they are today.  Quickly put together, released before they should be, unfinished and buggy, bland and uninteresting.

The genre took a serious turn for the worse.  I wonder if it's even possible to ever go back to the ol EQ, SWG days of gameing.   I doubt it. Probably time to move on.  Sniff, sniff....

there's also the WoW factor.

developers have been trying to find the "El Dorado" (WoW's millions of subs) by emulating it; and their copy is usually a dumbed down and broken version of it. 

 

anyhing that resembles WoW has been perceived as a lower risk than building a complex and heavy maintanence sandbox game as Beatnik outlined. 

yet even though these games have proven that there isn't a single recipe to achieve those numbers - because none of them have had a good deal of  success -  the few sandbox games that did release these past few years have been particularly poor as well.  

  shane782

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/11
Posts: 23

 
OP  3/07/11 8:14:31 PM#20

Always great to think back to the old days .... thanks to everyone who put down their thoughts at least i know im not alone in this. I also did not mean to take away anything from UO. It is a great game as well. I just meant meant when i read forums on sandbox games SWG is brought up alot.

I even find myself playing games with assasains and writing in the forums hey you need to add bounty missions like swg. Or making other odd comparisons that i know will never come about.

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