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45 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 642

3/07/11 7:35:04 AM#41

i am afraid that these open groups will make games even less challenging than they already are.

i see a trend in MMOs that solo content becomes more and more easy, so that everyone is able to manage it. same with groups. in the past you needed a good and well balanced and experienced group for some content. nowadays the games are advertising that class doesnt matter anymore. everybody can heal, do cc and deal dps and even tank a bit. but these skills are now much weaker than they used to be, becuase evrybody got them more or less. and so the content is downgraded to a degree that every group, even the most stupid combination is succesful. this counts for such open groups especially.

just compare the playerskill you needed for a high-xp group in lower guk in EQ1 with an open group in RIFT. i like the idea of open groups. this is very casual. but i hate games without a challenge. the MMOs became more and more easier lately.

played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1668

3/07/11 10:53:21 AM#42
Originally posted by Kyleran

I enjoy the open grouping in Rift, and maybe someone else invented it, but Trion's mastered it.


I'm not sure if many know but the open grouping was called for by the players as in the early beta's of Rift there was no such mechanic implemented and only people explaining and calling for it in the beta forums did it get put in. So I think a big thank you should be given to the visionary beta players that saw this as a worthwhile addition and it was they who helped Trion "master" it, though I will say kudos to Trion for listening but it was not them who came up with the idea.




This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/07
Posts: 346

"my favorite thing is a Gyro"--Malibu Dan

3/07/11 9:49:38 PM#43
Originally posted by holifeet

Well this topic isn't actually about how the games play...even though Rift is humdrum tediousness. This topic is about PUGs versus automatic grouping systems.

Modern MMOs are all about quests and it is that that inhibits the grouping mechanic in MMOs. People aren't going into dungeons specifically to have fun, although fun can be a by product of what they are there for. What they are there for is a very specific goal, be it a kill or a drop, that they need for a quest. What causes problems with PUGs is that more often than not every person is at a different stage or some have even finished a quest when others haven't. It's therefore difficult to get people together  that are after the same thing. Player A won't want to help player B catch up, for example.

In that case it is the questing emchanic of the game that is restrictuive to grouping, not problems associated with getting people together. Getting people together is easy, though it does seem more often the case in this day and age that making people get on in MMOs is harder. All these examples of why PUGing is hard or problematic are just excuses. The problems are these tedious game mechanics that keep popping up in MMOs.

Like I said I have been playing EQ again for the last three weeks. In that time I have had plenty of splendid PUGs. Last weekend I spent something like 5 or 6 hours in a group in a few dungeons. I had a blast and everyone got on superbly. Just now I had a group in Lavastorm with quite a few changes to the group make up. Never were we inconvenienced (unless you count multiple groups in one spot due to population) and replacements were quick and easy to find. EQ has none of this quest rubbish, where achievements are the erason for grouping. EQ is a game where you get together with likeminded people to just have fun. There are no objectives bar the obtaining of maybe some armour and the next level.

PUGs work and EQ is aperfect example of it. It is dull, repetetive and same old, same old mechanics in every single MMO that have ruined grouping and made these open group systems necessary.


I'll finish by quoting a friend. I'm sure he won't mind. Just because a game tricks the mind by providing open grouping, it doesn't mean it is good grouping. Good grouping is getting together with friends or people you just met and having any amount of time's fun and remembering it the next day...or even the next month. Hell, I remember groups from EQ 7 years ago. I don't remember a single second of the time I spent in any group in was just quest grinding that I happened to need a little help for.

You, sir, I believe, are on to something here. Perhaps a change in the entire quest system that most mmo's employ is in order. Never thought of it this way. Good point.

It's a proven historical fact that beer saved humankind.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/03/08
Posts: 445

3/09/11 1:53:26 PM#44

When Isabelle said, "The point is, closed groups seem to be more of a design paradigm legacy from our tabletop days than an actual design requirement."  I thought, closed groups isnt the only thing that applies to.  I would venture to say leveling a character would also be a "design paradigm legacy from out tabletop days."  Specifically Dungeons & Dragons. Which was applied to RPGs in general, then influenced MMOs.  I can see skill levels, but an arbitrary character level I find to be silly.


But more related to the topic. I think both closed and open groups occur naturally in real life, so it's nice to see both going on in a MMO instead of just closed groups.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

3/09/11 3:07:50 PM#45
Originally posted by Adamai

oh wow thaty 4th pic is just blinding. what i mean is its stupid. why even bother playing a game you cant see for icons and tabs. thats not a game its a websight thats interactive. with just far far too many buttons and options.


not simple enough to many skills to many other things on the screen at the same time.


el crapo!! wont be playing rift purely on this basis. its just another wow!!

 you won't play Rift because you saw a picture of WoW where someone has tons of add-ons? you take the cake on ignorance.

if you don't recognize it as being WoW, then i can hardly take serious any opinion you have on the game. i can recognize every MMO i have ever played in a glance, add-ons or not, so the fact that you don't even know what your looking at tells me you have little experience with the game, and just like to follow the trends of the 'MMO hipsters'. grats on being a mindless follwer.



any group system can work, depending on application. open groups (like Rifting) is great because it's so accessible. i've leveled to 36 so far, and have never had any bad expeience with others in a random Rift group. everyone joins, closes the Rift, and is off to do their thing. some talk, and sometimes i end up re-grouping with the same people over and over again through-out the night, which DOES lead community bonding. i have noticed that a lot of people won't even leave my group, and seem content to hang around and quest together, and maybe hunt the next closest rift. it has found me a quest partner more than once, and so far i have not encountered any asshats while rifting. i have been randomly saved by MANY people that i get pugged with while rifting, some of which join my group out of nowhere, and pull a slew of mobs off my rogue. i get a real sense of player unity in the game, and it would be foolish to say that the public rift system has nothing to do with it.

 closed groups are fun because you 'can' have a more personal experience with a handful of others, which gives me more of the 'fantasy adventurer' feel, than i can get with 20+ running around, stacked on top of each other.  in most fantasy novels, you usually have a small, close-knit group facing an adventure, not 20+ 'legendary champions' all tackling one creature.

a closed group in an instance might be an immersion breaker for some, but i find the lines of other groups mob camping to be a far worse immersion breaker, than a short load screen that flashes as i enter. i can enjoy both. i don't believe there is 'one perfect' way to do anything.

for me, MMo's should offer both. most people play video games for fun and will make good use of both systems. if anything, i think it's the rewrd system of traditional mmo's that creates all the drama. not the grouping mechanics. remove the gear-centric, carrot on a stick gimmick, and just focus on character building. there is so much to offer with tweaking abilities in RPG's in general, that focusing a character around what they wear just reflects the shallowness of the modern world. but wait.. i'm totally off-topic here, AGAIN. 

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