Originally posted by Cannyone

Originally posted by nmalthus

Played the SWTOR beta and preordered my copy.

Well, its getting "deep" in here...  

 

Look I have no idea if you've actually participated in the SWTOR beta, or not.  But I know if you "pre-ordered" it from anywhere it must have been a store where they're more than willing to take your money.  Despite the fact that there's no release date.  And when I think about it for more than a few seconds, I realise that even if you've played the game some place.  You are still violating your NDA. 

 

No, screw it, I just don't believe you!  Link a screenshot, or it didn't happen...

Actually he wouldn't be breaking the NDA by saying hes in beta.  Thats about all you can say but it is allowed.  Now the screenshot would be breaking the NDA. ;)

Originally posted by gaou

Originally posted by Cannyone

Originally posted by nmalthus

Played the SWTOR beta and preordered my copy.

Well, its getting "deep" in here...  

 

Look I have no idea if you've actually participated in the SWTOR beta, or not.  But I know if you "pre-ordered" it from anywhere it must have been a store where they're more than willing to take your money.  Despite the fact that there's no release date.  And when I think about it for more than a few seconds, I realise that even if you've played the game some place.  You are still violating your NDA. 

 

No, screw it, I just don't believe you!  Link a screenshot, or it didn't happen...

Actually he wouldn't be breaking the NDA by saying hes in beta.  Thats about all you can say but it is allowed.  Now the screenshot would be breaking the NDA. ;)

Have either of you actually read the NDA to know what is breaking it and what is not?

I signed an NDA for a Beta that did not prohibit me from saying I was in beta.... however it did prohibit me from discussing what was in the NDA, or even acknowledging the fact that an NDA existed.

Originally posted by mmogawd

Originally posted by gaou

Originally posted by Cannyone

Originally posted by nmalthus

Played the SWTOR beta and preordered my copy.

Well, its getting "deep" in here...  

 

Look I have no idea if you've actually participated in the SWTOR beta, or not.  But I know if you "pre-ordered" it from anywhere it must have been a store where they're more than willing to take your money.  Despite the fact that there's no release date.  And when I think about it for more than a few seconds, I realise that even if you've played the game some place.  You are still violating your NDA. 

 

No, screw it, I just don't believe you!  Link a screenshot, or it didn't happen...

Actually he wouldn't be breaking the NDA by saying hes in beta.  Thats about all you can say but it is allowed.  Now the screenshot would be breaking the NDA. ;)

Have either of you actually read the NDA to know what is breaking it and what is not?

I signed an NDA for a Beta that did not prohibit me from saying I was in beta.... however it did prohibit me from discussing what was in the NDA, or even acknowledging the fact that an NDA existed.

This is why i say he allowed to say hes in the beta or as they call it game testing.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=156174

Why does people even bother with these topics before closed / open beta? Nobody cares what someone THINKS this game will be like untill anything solid closer to release is relevealed in lengths.

These same thread starters will be there gasping "omg so cool I just pre ordered my collector's edition for the umpteenth time after cancelling it umpteenth times first, based on some off-shoot comment 1,5 years ago, on some random gaming site!" lollipop!

Impatience of kids is alarming these days. Shrieking should be forbidden by law before closed/open betas, when it comes to mmos. :)

I've participated in quite a few Closed Betas in the last 11 years.  All of the NDAs included a clause that said something to the effect of "don't discuss this beta with anyone that is not participating".  Now, yes, I do understand that BioWare might have chosen to do things differently.  But you never even hear about any SWTOR beta beyond some random comment like this one. 

That fact, combined with his statement about "pre-ordering" SWTOR leads me to believe he is just lying.  And the best way to call him on it, without flaming him, is to challenge him for a screenshot.  If he produces I'll apologize and STFU.  Otherwise I'd prefer for him to keep his comments, which he cannot validate, to himself.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Aglaranna

Here's a small part of it:

 

"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.

Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.

“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""

 

::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.

Well this WoW clone has the largest following of any upcoming MMO. With over 248k Facebook followers and almost a million accounts on the offical website. Compared to GW2 that has about 157k.

 

But yeah people just hate WoW type games, thats why they are all playing WoW.

That may be so but GW has already sold 6 million units including expasions so i don't really think swtor is even close to that.

GW2 will sell even more just like swtor will sell a shed load.

At this piont, with any new games, my expectation has been reduced just so I can go back to enjoying them again.  All I hope for now is another game that is fun to play that has a large community.

@Cannyone: ? The yellow text seemed pretty clear, saying you're in a beta is no violation of the NDA while producing screenshots would certainly  be a violation of the NDA.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

@Cannyone: ? The yellow text seemed pretty clear, saying you're in a beta is no violation of the NDA while producing screenshots would certainly  be a violation of the NDA.

I understand.  And I still suspect that he's not telling the truth.  But I made my original comments before that repost from the SWTOR forums was added. 

And my post (previous to this one) was just to make a point.  In all the times I was participating in a "limited beta" I never went on some forum and said; I'm in the "____" beta, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...  That's just "bad form" in my opinion.  And if he lets me bait him into violating the NDA, I won't turn him in for it.  But I won't feel bad if he gets kicked either.

Yeah, sometimes I can be pretty pathetic... Life is just that way. 

Now I truly will shut up!  In fact I'll log, push away from the computer and go get something useful done.  I apologize to everyone, including nmalthus, for being a jerk.  Have a great day!

Oh it will be something new..That's all I'm going to say.

Are we suprised? Im not, the developers of MMOS think that WoW is the Holy grail, they bend themself backwards to copy cat that game, and then they TANK ( WAR, AOC, Champions online, Star Trek the list goes ever on) and are suprised hmm we get 700k box sails and our game drops to below 100k in one month hmm How can this bee? what did we do wrong?

YOU COPIED A GAME THAT EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!

Ps: for all those that say WoW copied other games.. Im talking about the MINDSET here the Thredwheel, the item grind, the Quest till you drop etc... Mini/Max I want BOP stuff, Instanced Battlegrounds, instanced dungeones... Blizzard whent all out here they have created a MONSTER that has derailed the hole genre now for a half a decade...

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slpr

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

Originally posted by Alot

I think we could easily end the thread in a peaceful way, if we knew what the definition of the word "touchstone" is in that context.

touchstone [?t?t??st??n]

n

1. a criterion or standard by which judgment is made

2. (Earth Sciences / Minerals) a hard dark siliceous stone, such as basalt or jasper, that is used to test the quality of gold and silver from the colour of the streak they produce on it

 

Yes, standard quality. WoW is the best MMO of the market even if some people hate it.

Using that logic McDonald's is the best fast food burger joint on the market, even if I think Steak and Shake is much better.

What you don't understand is... that McDonald's food is a great product! It's cheap and tasty  and that is the reason why they have restaurants all over the world. The same happens with WoW, it's polished, it's fun and entertaining to some degree... it wouldn't have 12 million people playing it, if it wasn't a good product. And that is exactly what bioware is saying... you people get everything out of context... he never said that SWTOR is a WoW clone!

If you check other interviews you will hear them say several times, that this game is a bioware game and plays like a bioware game. Of course they would be stupid not to look at all the best features of all MMO's out there.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Are we suprised? Im not, the developers of MMOS think that WoW is the Holy grail, they bend themself backwards to copy cat that game, and then they TANK ( WAR, AOC, Champions online, Star Trek the list goes ever on) and are suprised hmm we get 700k box sails and our game drops to below 100k in one month hmm How can this bee? what did we do wrong?

YOU COPIED A GAME THAT EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!

Ps: for all those that say WoW copied other games.. Im talking about the MINDSET here the Thredwheel, the item grind, the Quest till you drop etc... Mini/Max I want BOP stuff, Instanced Battlegrounds, instanced dungeones... Blizzard whent all out here they have created a MONSTER that has derailed the hole genre now for a half a decade...

SWTOR is not a WoW clone, if you people followed this game closely you would know that. It was just a website that got the doctor out of context and tried to add some drama, maybe for a few more clicks. Other websites were at the same panel and none of them wrote what those guys have in their website. And theres interviews in youtube and they never, never talk about WoW... in fact, they say this game plays like a bioware game and that they are innovating in some fronts and improving other stuff.

Originally posted by slpr

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Are we suprised? Im not, the developers of MMOS think that WoW is the Holy grail, they bend themself backwards to copy cat that game, and then they TANK ( WAR, AOC, Champions online, Star Trek the list goes ever on) and are suprised hmm we get 700k box sails and our game drops to below 100k in one month hmm How can this bee? what did we do wrong?

YOU COPIED A GAME THAT EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!

Ps: for all those that say WoW copied other games.. Im talking about the MINDSET here the Thredwheel, the item grind, the Quest till you drop etc... Mini/Max I want BOP stuff, Instanced Battlegrounds, instanced dungeones... Blizzard whent all out here they have created a MONSTER that has derailed the hole genre now for a half a decade...

SWTOR is not a WoW clone, if you people followed this game closely you would know that. It was just a website that got the doctor out of context and tried to add some drama, maybe for a few more clicks. Other websites were at the same panel and none of them wrote what those guys have in their website. And theres interviews in youtube and they never, never talk about WoW... in fact, they say this game plays like a bioware game and that they are innovating in some fronts and improving other stuff.

Hmm when I see this I will belive it mate... All I see is We have Battlgrounds, we have kill Quests we have 2 fractions we have loked races for Classes, we have levels Bla bla bla I dont want to play a game like that anymore.

I dont want quest I dont want classes I dont want two fractions that cant comunicate with one another... I dont want a special space ship for my class And I dont give a shit about voiced over acting... Now dose this game have anything for me NO! but Im not alone there are a shitload of people out there who feel the same, We have played Quest and raid games untill our Eyes bleed we know them... sitting down and playing another one wont make us happy

Why can you release COD (call of duty) after COD? because you play against other HUMANS.. PvP will keep any game alive long before its tired gameplay has become so boring you know it by heart. CHess has lasted for thousands of years because Guess What you play against another HUMAN oppnent most of the time, because outsmarting him makes the game fun. STORY.. and PVE content can only take you so far. And when evryone and their mother has played the mecanic before they will buy the BOX and unsub after a month.. Trust me.

Statements like these boggle my mind.  Blah blah blah blah, my heart is breaking because an MMO is yet again trying to copy WoW.

Enough.  Seriously, did you know WoW took alot of what they do off of another game ::gasp::  its called Everquest.  Yeah I know it will shatter our very existance, but there was life before WoW.  Especially kids that didn't play a MMO before WoW, before MMOs were cool :P.   Do you know why they did it?  Cause this genre has industry standards...can we say STANDARDS.

So, let us fast forward to over half a decade later.  We have whiners by the thousands complaining over and over again how everyone is trying to copy wow.  Does the game have quests?  Copied WoW.  Does the game have gear and gear progression?  Copied WoW.  Does the game have dungeons and raids?  Copied WoW.    Does it use the CLASSIC  three role system tank/healer/dps?  Copied WoW.  Get over it.  Those are industry standards.  Their obviously fun to the masses or WoW wouldn't be so damned popular.

Do you konw why the past few years we have had craptastic MMOs?  It isn't cause they strive to be a "WoW clone"  it is because they rush out a game before it is polished.  It is because they have nothing that is innovative.  It is because it jsut isn't fun to play and they don't upkeep content.  it is because they hype things up so much that players simply have too high expectations.  Oh yeah...it is because when they do try to break the mold, it is either poorly implemented OR  people, who come to expect a certain STANDARD (there is that pesky word again), find that it is too different and they don't enjoy it, or it simply finds its nitch audience.

Like it or not, WoW set a bar, and every gaming company worth their salt knows it and strives for it because that is how they make money.  For those that are ignorant of this, video game companies are a business and money is always the bottom line.

Now let us count the ways this game will NOT be a copy.  yes it will have dungeons, yes it will have class roles, yes there will be gear grinding...so yes, GET OVER IT.

The reasons why I'm excited aobut this game.

1.  Pure and simple, you get to play in the Star Wars Universe.  This is what made SWG awesome even after Sony screwed up it's system and the only reason why people stayed subscribed to it.  Jedi and Sith are cool, leave it at that.

2.  If their dialogue system, missions and story are anything like KotOR or Mass Effect, this is oging to be fun.  Made even more so in that they are following DCU Online's example in having complete voice overs for all their dialogue.  I can't tell you how immersive this is.  And for someone that skims other MMO quest text just to get the basics, I actually follow the story when it is all voice over.

3.  Player homes/ships  I like that I have my own personal base of operation.  That it will not only be a trophy and social area, but it will have function and serve as a travel mechanic.

4.  Companions:  KotOR 's legacy will live on in the game.  It will have companions that will allow you to interact and will determine the outcome of yoru own personal quest line.  The last is hinted at but even just a fraction of this would be spiffy.

5.  Ranged Tanking:  That just sounds spiffy ;)

These points are just the ones I know of.  How is this a WoW carbon copy.  Instead of being a lemming and joining in the chorus of whiners.  Do some research.  Sure it will have soem WoW  mechanics...but let us return to our word of the day:  STANDARDS.  

So I say it again, get over it.

Originally posted by dtumacder

Statements like these boggle my mind.  Blah blah blah blah, my heart is breaking because an MMO is yet again trying to copy WoW.

Enough.  Seriously, did you know WoW took alot of what they do off of another game ::gasp::  its called Everquest.  Yeah I know it will shatter our very existance, but there was life before WoW.  Especially kids that didn't play a MMO before WoW, before MMOs were cool :P.   Do you know why they did it?  Cause this genre has industry standards...can we say STANDARDS.

So, let us fast forward to over half a decade later.  We have whiners by the thousands complaining over and over again how everyone is trying to copy wow.  Does the game have quests?  Copied WoW.  Does the game have gear and gear progression?  Copied WoW.  Does the game have dungeons and raids?  Copied WoW.    Does it use the CLASSIC  three role system tank/healer/dps?  Copied WoW.  Get over it.  Those are industry standards.  Their obviously fun to the masses or WoW wouldn't be so damned popular.

Do you konw why the past few years we have had craptastic MMOs?  It isn't cause they strive to be a "WoW clone"  it is because they rush out a game before it is polished.  It is because they have nothing that is innovative.  It is because it jsut isn't fun to play and they don't upkeep content.  it is because they hype things up so much that players simply have too high expectations.  Oh yeah...it is because when they do try to break the mold, it is either poorly implemented OR  people, who come to expect a certain STANDARD (there is that pesky word again), find that it is too different and they don't enjoy it, or it simply finds its nitch audience.

Like it or not, WoW set a bar, and every gaming company worth their salt knows it and strives for it because that is how they make money.  For those that are ignorant of this, video game companies are a business and money is always the bottom line.

Now let us count the ways this game will NOT be a copy.  yes it will have dungeons, yes it will have class roles, yes there will be gear grinding...so yes, GET OVER IT.

The reasons why I'm excited aobut this game.

1.  Pure and simple, you get to play in the Star Wars Universe.  This is what made SWG awesome even after Sony screwed up it's system and the only reason why people stayed subscribed to it.  Jedi and Sith are cool, leave it at that.

2.  If their dialogue system, missions and story are anything like KotOR or Mass Effect, this is oging to be fun.  Made even more so in that they are following DCU Online's example in having complete voice overs for all their dialogue.  I can't tell you how immersive this is.  And for someone that skims other MMO quest text just to get the basics, I actually follow the story when it is all voice over.

3.  Player homes/ships  I like that I have my own personal base of operation.  That it will not only be a trophy and social area, but it will have function and serve as a travel mechanic.

4.  Companions:  KotOR 's legacy will live on in the game.  It will have companions that will allow you to interact and will determine the outcome of yoru own personal quest line.  The last is hinted at but even just a fraction of this would be spiffy.

5.  Ranged Tanking:  That just sounds spiffy ;)

These points are just the ones I know of.  How is this a WoW carbon copy.  Instead of being a lemming and joining in the chorus of whiners.  Do some research.  Sure it will have soem WoW  mechanics...but let us return to our word of the day:  STANDARDS.  

So I say it again, get over it.

 Well said.Some of the things that people are whining about are considered standards for MMOs. Might as well call every fast food joint a McDonalds clone if they serve hamburgers and french fries. Though I doubt fans of Burger King or Wendys would agree.

I played WOW and this game sounds NOTHING like WOW. I could play WOW while surfing the internet and listening to my own music because the game just wasn't engaging.  If I try to do that with TOR I might make a choice that I don't like which will effect my character forever. I also don't remember having companions in WOW that I could tell to go make me armour,gather or take care of a diplomatic dispute. I don't remember being able to display my items in a ship (or anywhere for that matter seeing as WOW never had player housing.)  The list goes on.

The real reason for WoW's success comes from using other MMo's ideas and putting them into a game that actually worked.

1. Alot of MMO's that were out there had countless amounts of bugs, lag and server crashes, rollbacks.

2. WoW was compatible with even the crappest of PC's out then, something alot of MMO's werent. Peoople dont wanna have to get a new PC because 1 game there playing is like a slideshow, some people cant afford that.

3. Kept it simple making balancing issues easier to deal with, whereas other MMO's put too many variables into there combats skills which made them harder to balance.

4. Actually focused on releasing a MMO that can be played hassle free, i.e. few bugs or game breaking problems. So many MMO's produce games that are faulty at launch. Im currently playing Xsyon and that game isnt really ready yet (thought it probably has one of the tinyest production teams so im pretty understanding about it).

5. Made it easy to understand, previous MMO's had steep learning curves, and although they might have had more depth once learned it puts off some people.

6. Apeals to peoples materialism. Really all you get from raiding and pvping is gear, its what the game focuses on. Consumerism (sp) is what civilisation has become, so this game reflects well on how people like getting "new shinies" and chucking away the old ones.

7. Managed to pull off  a large target audience of kids and adults due to its relaxed and easy to play approach, with cartoonish stylised graphics and enriched lore.

Truth is that most other MMO's were badly designed and had to many gamebreaking issues (balance, bugs, lack of content) which is why they didnt take bigger market segments.

Really all thats needed is a company that can actually make a MMO sandbox that doesnt have a flawed concept from the get go, isnt riddled with hardware or software issues, accessible for most pcs, has content and a easy learning curve , to break new ground in this doomed genre.

Originally posted by jpaprocki

Found this article to be interesting.  I wasn't interested in the first one and after reading this, I'm certainly not going to bother with it..

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-02-10-bioware-warcraft-is-the-touchstone-for-old-republic

I was hoping it would be something blue, but borrowed is also fine.

Originally posted by Aglaranna

Here's a small part of it:

 

"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.

Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.

“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""

 

::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.

Poor keynote from his part.

What he really meant, or he should, that WOW improved or released some standards, from UI, game mechanics, controls etc. Unfortunly as in Rift and other games, the developers copy more then these standards(for a fast buck), which in the end only hurts their game. Every game is a inspiration of previous ones, with some features new or improved, depending on these features the game will do well, and have a long life, unless they dont bring enough "new" or "improved" things to the table.

Of course many of the players have hardly any eye to distinguish this, so the developers are doing pretty well:)

See COD series or WOW addons, or etc...

Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.

Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with sticks cause, you know, that are the "standars".

Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocrity.

Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it had been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.

We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.