The only thing they did wrong, definitely not. The worst, absolute most game-killing thing they did wrong, definitely. I am one of the few pre-CU veterans who actually liked the CU, so I'm definitely a little weird on that score (Star Wars is a gun driven universe, running around with a big hammer should not make you the baddest ass in the galaxy, it should get you shot and killed at range). The NGE dumbed the game down so much it could never recover, and SOE continously lied to players about what would happen next or how they would improve things or whether or not they had deleted the original code files for SWG. So, maybe not only one mistake, but only one absolutely unforgivable mistake.

Originally posted by SuperDonk

The NGE is what made me pass on DCUO and every other SOE game since.  Maybe I need to get over it, but I doubt I ever will.  SOE pissed all over me and I will never forgive them for that.

 QFE

exactly how i feel

I have played SWG for the last 5 years. Although I have just stoped my sub do to lack of game time now days I still enjoy the game. SWG still has alot going for it but it is showing its age and getting trial players to stick around is a struggle. Keeping a player city alive and finding a good active guild is the hardest thing to do. I would say that the hate for SWG is not the game but how the change took place. Pre-CU was broken from the start. (i know I'll get a rip for that so please don't) If the pre-CU never happened and the only thing players ever saw / played was the NGE this game I know would rival that of WOW. The sadest thing is that b/c of the way it all changed and how much of it changed (almost like a new game) vets will not return. Most vets will agree that they enjoy the game now but b/c of how it all went down they can not bring themself to play long term. Also, when they do return and see the sad state its in they leave after a few weeks out of heartbreak. I feel that f2p might help bring people in to fix the low population and maybe some vets too but even with that for most vets the damage is done. I understand how some might be upset but I also will still say its the best MMO I have played yet. 

You won't get ripped for saying Pre-CU was broken, because it is the truth.  SWG has never in its entire existance been in good shape.  It has always been filled with bugs, poor design and development issues. 

That being said, the NGE would have been no more successful if pre-cu never existed than it is now.  There are tens of millions upon millions of new mmo players who have joined the market since the nge released and if the nge was that good more people would play the game.  A few angry forum posters can't stop that. 

It is unrealistic to think that soe would have somehow been more responsibile of capable developing the nge than they were any of the other different versions swg has been through.  They simply are not capable of a solid design and following through on it.  The nge is attracting and retaining all the players it is capable of and most of those have ties to the game prior to the changes. 

A game can have all the potential in the world, but if it cannot deliver on it in 6 years then it has nothing else to blame but itself. 

Originally posted by sure_shock

I have played SWG for the last 5 years. Although I have just stoped my sub do to lack of game time now days I still enjoy the game. SWG still has alot going for it but it is showing its age and getting trial players to stick around is a struggle. Keeping a player city alive and finding a good active guild is the hardest thing to do. I would say that the hate for SWG is not the game but how the change took place. Pre-CU was broken from the start. (i know I'll get a rip for that so please don't) If the pre-CU never happened and the only thing players ever saw / played was the NGE this game I know would rival that of WOW. The sadest thing is that b/c of the way it all changed and how much of it changed (almost like a new game) vets will not return. Most vets will agree that they enjoy the game now but b/c of how it all went down they can not bring themself to play long term. Also, when they do return and see the sad state its in they leave after a few weeks out of heartbreak. I feel that f2p might help bring people in to fix the low population and maybe some vets too but even with that for most vets the damage is done. I understand how some might be upset but I also will still say its the best MMO I have played yet. 

As a launch day vet, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Since you have never played SWG before the NGE fiasco, there is no way you can determine that vets left because of "how" the NGE was delivered (it is one reason). Since you joined SWG post-NGE, you can never compare the the different versions of the game. The game I and many others bought and signed up for had great features that were deleted, nerfed and/or totally marginalized by the NGE. No matter what content or 'shinies' have been bolted on the NGE these past five years change the fundamental flaw of SWG - the core is still the NGE.

I am happy you can enjoy SWG in its current incarnation. I suspect never playing SWG before the NGE has allowed you that. I just believe that if the NGE version of SWG was so great, the game couldn't help but attract and retain players. The closed and dead servers tell the story. $OE was more concerned about the WoW players they didn't have than the ones they threw away with the NGE.

On release I grinded hard, and became a TKM brawler wookie.

I loved the game, had a pet Rancor, a house on Naboo, had an alt dancer/artisan on another server. We protected our 1 jedi we knew of on the server with much ferocity, and hunted others with the same. We were rebels, with backpacks and guidos that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but we were happy (even though our enemies had AT-ATs and legions of troops, we had our backpacks full of ice cream cake and cake.)

Then the words that ring in my ear even today...

'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.'  and the nerfs to the TKM following it.

It was a sign of what was to come sadly. NGE did it for many, but for my friends, it was how they treated the community and how they could dramatically changed the game early on that scared us away.

Originally posted by Nevek

Originally posted by SuperDonk

The NGE is what made me pass on DCUO and every other SOE game since.  Maybe I need to get over it, but I doubt I ever will.  SOE pissed all over me and I will never forgive them for that.

 QFE

 

exactly how i feel

 I felt the same way, but gave EQ2extended a chance (their new f2p version), and I'm glad I did. The game is probably the best f2p I have ever experienced so far.

I haven't completely forgiven them for SWG, doubtful I ever will. The community of SWG was such an extremely vibrant thing to witness it's hard to forgive them for destroying it. That being said...after witnessing how all the other companies have been treating players over the years, giving SOE another chance at a f2p wasn't that difficult, and I'm glad I did.

Originally posted by Rider071

 I felt the same way, but gave EQ2extended a chance (their new f2p version), and I'm glad I did. The game is probably the best f2p I have ever experienced so far.

I haven't completely forgiven them for SWG, doubtful I ever will. The community of SWG was such an extremely vibrant thing to witness it's hard to forgive them for destroying it. That being said...after witnessing how all the other companies have been treating players over the years, giving SOE another chance at a f2p wasn't that difficult, and I'm glad I did.

Something to keep in mind.  The enjoyment you find in the free to play version has come at the expense of the former players on the subscription servers.  They have been given their own nge style treatment in the creation of EQ2X so that soe could attract the potential player. 

Soe is still fucking their players over, you just happened to be on the other end of the situation this time and if EQ2X had been a massive success you can bet your ass they would have continued fucking over their current players. 

I recently gave SWG another whirl with the 14 day trial, mainly because of the long awaited SW:ToR is looming on the horizon and that most MMO's around atm I have found boring and I have been reminiscing about how wonderfull SWG was.

If there was any bigger travesty to befall any game in the history of videogames, this was the worst, most heinous crime of them all. Yet another reminder of why I have never bought another SOE game since the NGE was forced upon us.

We all know that SOE never deleted the original code for SWG or even the CU as we all know it just doesn't make sense. Every  company has backups, hell, even all us gamers have back-ups as we all know how fickle computing can be, but even after the mass exodus of players from SWG and the new playerbase that never materialised, I would've thought that even the most stubborn of mules would have set up classic servers to regain some subscribers to rejuvinate income from their game.

I dare say that a lot of people would have returned. I know I would have in an instant, but what's done is done and SOE lost a lot of respect and credibility in the MMO world which will never be forgotten. Even new MMO players have heard about the NGE and in years to come, the NGE will be textbook teachings of what not to do in MMO's.

Until the release of SW:ToR, I shall continue to amuse myself with the flightless bird from New Zealand and pray for it's final completion (with JTL ofc).

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Kazlin

 

 Soo much more going on here than a simple game change that people didn't like, which is often how the NGE is portrayed these days.  One honest mistake that unreasonable gamers refuse to let go of?  I really don't think that description fits the SWG situation...at all.  And, judging from the responses, my perspective is not unique.

I fully agree with you.  The game was mismanaged from the start and the main creative people behind the game's design were removed from the dev team within a few months after launch.  That left the game with a dev team that didn't understand the game, nor did they particualrly like the game the way it was.

SOE is a company that looks at short term income at the expense of the long term.  None of the problems of SWG are specific to SWG.  They can be found among every product SOE develops.  You have folks in charge who think they know better what their customers want than their customers do.  When thier customers tell them they don't like the things the developers are doing, the folks at SOE get pissy with their customers and continue doing what their customers don't want.

SWG and the NGE are just the largest and easiest example to point outwhat is wrong at SOE.  The NGE wasn't a random outlier, it was, and is, a prime example of what has always been wrong at SOE.  SOE is a company who's employees seem to resent thier customers, and it has been that way since EQ launched.  Unfortunately the mindset at SOE is leeching out to other companies, such as Cryptic.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Rider071

 I felt the same way, but gave EQ2extended a chance (their new f2p version), and I'm glad I did. The game is probably the best f2p I have ever experienced so far.

I haven't completely forgiven them for SWG, doubtful I ever will. The community of SWG was such an extremely vibrant thing to witness it's hard to forgive them for destroying it. That being said...after witnessing how all the other companies have been treating players over the years, giving SOE another chance at a f2p wasn't that difficult, and I'm glad I did.

Something to keep in mind.  The enjoyment you find in the free to play version has come at the expense of the former players on the subscription servers.  They have been given their own nge style treatment in the creation of EQ2X so that soe could attract the potential player. 

Soe is still fucking their players over, you just happened to be on the other end of the situation this time and if EQ2X had been a massive success you can bet your ass they would have continued fucking over their current players. 

 I'll confess to being out of the loop when it comes to the idea of EQ2X being made at the expense of EQ2 (regular?) players.  Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 I'll confess to being out of the loop when it comes to the idea of EQ2X being made at the expense of EQ2 (regular?) players.  Can you elaborate?

The very quick version

Smokejumper replaces Brenlo as senior producer and players are nervous about his extensive free to play background.  Soe asks players if they mind cash shop and smokejumper reassures them soe has heard them loud and clear about "not in our backyard" and promises the players their game will not go free to play.

28 days later soe announces EQ2X free to play service. 

Soe removes free trials to the legacy servers unless a current player mails a buddy invite. 

Soe reassigns nearly the entire dev team to work on new player experience for eq2/eq2x.  Instead of delivering high end content on the 3 month cycle like they promised they redo the UI to be new player friendly (with a huge station cash button built into it), spell effects reduced or removed, newbie questing redone, cash shop interface on in game vendors, etc.  Everything is focused on getting new players into EQ2X and EQ2 just has to deal with it. 

Transfers are offered off the legacy servers to the new server, but no one can transfer form the f2p servers to the old servers.

The p2p forums are linked with a portal to the f2p forums, but the f2p forums get no link to the subscription forums.

etc, etc, etc. 

It was a pretty clear attmept to replace the current playerbase for not allowing cash shops to go into the current game, but keep them around just in case it didn't work... which of course it didn't.

Originally posted by headen

This is a scab that will never heal.  Because people keep picking at it.

It's hard not to pick on it, it's a compulsive tic really, sort of like picking your nose and rolling the boogers between fingers until it dries into a little ball.

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Kazlin

 

 Soo much more going on here than a simple game change that people didn't like, which is often how the NGE is portrayed these days.  One honest mistake that unreasonable gamers refuse to let go of?  I really don't think that description fits the SWG situation...at all.  And, judging from the responses, my perspective is not unique.

 

I fully agree with you.  The game was mismanaged from the start and the main creative people behind the game's design were removed from the dev team within a few months after launch.  That left the game with a dev team that didn't understand the game, nor did they particualrly like the game the way it was.

SOE is a company that looks at short term income at the expense of the long term.  None of the problems of SWG are specific to SWG.  They can be found among every product SOE develops.  You have folks in charge who think they know better what their customers want than their customers do.  When thier customers tell them they don't like the things the developers are doing, the folks at SOE get pissy with their customers and continue doing what their customers don't want.

SWG and the NGE are just the largest and easiest example to point outwhat is wrong at SOE.  The NGE wasn't a random outlier, it was, and is, a prime example of what has always been wrong at SOE.  SOE is a company who's employees seem to resent thier customers, and it has been that way since EQ launched.  Unfortunately the mindset at SOE is leeching out to other companies, such as Cryptic.

I really don't think that is fair. Cryptic has been very responsive to players in regards to STO. From what I have hard , they have been just as responsive with CO. There have been a number of shakeups at Cryptic and most consider them under new and as I say more reasonable management. STO has undergone a very positive number of changes and looks like it shall continue that trend far into the future. So as one that was around for the NGE with SOE I just don't buy the comparison with Cryptic.

Originally posted by Gruug

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Obee

Originally posted by Kazlin

 

 Soo much more going on here than a simple game change that people didn't like, which is often how the NGE is portrayed these days.  One honest mistake that unreasonable gamers refuse to let go of?  I really don't think that description fits the SWG situation...at all.  And, judging from the responses, my perspective is not unique.

 

I fully agree with you.  The game was mismanaged from the start and the main creative people behind the game's design were removed from the dev team within a few months after launch.  That left the game with a dev team that didn't understand the game, nor did they particualrly like the game the way it was.

SOE is a company that looks at short term income at the expense of the long term.  None of the problems of SWG are specific to SWG.  They can be found among every product SOE develops.  You have folks in charge who think they know better what their customers want than their customers do.  When thier customers tell them they don't like the things the developers are doing, the folks at SOE get pissy with their customers and continue doing what their customers don't want.

SWG and the NGE are just the largest and easiest example to point outwhat is wrong at SOE.  The NGE wasn't a random outlier, it was, and is, a prime example of what has always been wrong at SOE.  SOE is a company who's employees seem to resent thier customers, and it has been that way since EQ launched.  Unfortunately the mindset at SOE is leeching out to other companies, such as Cryptic.

 

I really don't think that is fair. Cryptic has been very responsive to players in regards to STO. From what I have hard , they have been just as responsive with CO. There have been a number of shakeups at Cryptic and most consider them under new and as I say more reasonable management. STO has undergone a very positive number of changes and looks like it shall continue that trend far into the future. So as one that was around for the NGE with SOE I just don't buy the comparison with Cryptic.

I agree Gruug. Cryptic screwed up right at the start and they have been trying to make the game better ever since. They have really been talking to the players and are actively trying to make the game better and I feel they are doing it, even if it is slow. I to was around for before the nge and I will honestly say that trying to put cryptic in the same area as sony is just wrong. No other company has tried to screw over their entire playerbase like sony has and SADLY, even now, Sony still doesn't get it. They are still doing the same thing. If sony ever wants a chance to get back in the ring with the big boys, they are going to have to clear out their entire management structure and get people in there that really wants the games to succeed.  One of my favorite sayings from EQ1 was always, You are in OUR world now. Sadly, the management there took that quote the wrong way and let it go to their heads!

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 I'll confess to being out of the loop when it comes to the idea of EQ2X being made at the expense of EQ2 (regular?) players.  Can you elaborate?

The very quick version

Smokejumper replaces Brenlo as senior producer and players are nervous about his extensive free to play background.  Soe asks players if they mind cash shop and smokejumper reassures them soe has heard them loud and clear about "not in our backyard" and promises the players their game will not go free to play.

28 days later soe announces EQ2X free to play service. 

Soe removes free trials to the legacy servers unless a current player mails a buddy invite. 

Soe reassigns nearly the entire dev team to work on new player experience for eq2/eq2x.  Instead of delivering high end content on the 3 month cycle like they promised they redo the UI to be new player friendly (with a huge station cash button built into it), spell effects reduced or removed, newbie questing redone, cash shop interface on in game vendors, etc.  Everything is focused on getting new players into EQ2X and EQ2 just has to deal with it. 

Transfers are offered off the legacy servers to the new server, but no one can transfer form the f2p servers to the old servers.

The p2p forums are linked with a portal to the f2p forums, but the f2p forums get no link to the subscription forums.

etc, etc, etc. 

 

It was a pretty clear attmept to replace the current playerbase for not allowing cash shops to go into the current game, but keep them around just in case it didn't work... which of course it didn't.

 Wow, how did EQ2 vets respond to this?

NGE shows the core attitude of SOE. No other company in history has ever completely re-vamped their game without even telling their subscribers they were going to do so.

The equivalent is taking your car to get an oil change and auto shop changes the paint color, interior, and swaps out the engine with something you don't want.

Now if SOE is still scratching their head asking themselves what is wrong with this. then they should go out of business. Quite frankly that is mutiny on your customers, and that one event has caused me to never consider an SOE game again. That even makes me look at SONY as a whole in a bad light.

NGE is the same as stabbing a friend in the back, literally... Friendship runs much deeper than a business customer relationship. So the wound is much much deeper.

If SOE is truly sorry for what they did with NGE then they would setup some servers that are pre-NGE, update the graphics, and fix all the problems the game has and let all the SWG fans have a blast! I don't know how many times I've heard poeple mention SWG as back in the glory days. The ironic part is SOE is still shooting themselves in the foot by not haveing a pre-NGE server. Many people would come back and play the game even after all these years...

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 Wow, how did EQ2 vets respond to this?

They protested and pleaded only to be met by deaf ears.  Some moved to the new f2p server, some defended the actions, other lefts and soe was merging servers a few months later.   Business as ususal. 

Of course it was developed in secret from the players and they were mislead through omission of the facts by the senior producer that something like this wasn't going to happen.  Ironically the release date was like 2 weeks after they dropped the surprise news on the players.   You can read a bit about it here .

It is just to bad soe can not seem to find a way to actually work with players when they do just about anything.   They simply care more about pleasing people who don't play their games than the people who do play them. 

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

Originally posted by Gruug

 

I really don't think that is fair. Cryptic has been very responsive to players in regards to STO. From what I have hard , they have been just as responsive with CO. There have been a number of shakeups at Cryptic and most consider them under new and as I say more reasonable management. STO has undergone a very positive number of changes and looks like it shall continue that trend far into the future. So as one that was around for the NGE with SOE I just don't buy the comparison with Cryptic.

 

I agree Gruug. Cryptic screwed up right at the start and they have been trying to make the game better ever since. They have really been talking to the players and are actively trying to make the game better and I feel they are doing it, even if it is slow. I to was around for before the nge and I will honestly say that trying to put cryptic in the same area as sony is just wrong. No other company has tried to screw over their entire playerbase like sony has and SADLY, even now, Sony still doesn't get it. They are still doing the same thing. If sony ever wants a chance to get back in the ring with the big boys, they are going to have to clear out their entire management structure and get people in there that really wants the games to succeed.  One of my favorite sayings from EQ1 was always, You are in OUR world now. Sadly, the management there took that quote the wrong way and let it go to their heads!

I will just say this about comparing cryptic to soe.

John Needham is the CEO of cryptic.  He worked as a senior VP at soe for many years before he joined cryptic and was in charge of marketing, business development, etc.  He is still running cryptic today.

Looking at a lot of the bigger blunders cryptic has pulled or tried to pull there are a lot of similarities, especially things that fall into his field of expertise. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by DoomsDay01

Originally posted by Gruug

 

I really don't think that is fair. Cryptic has been very responsive to players in regards to STO. From what I have hard , they have been just as responsive with CO. There have been a number of shakeups at Cryptic and most consider them under new and as I say more reasonable management. STO has undergone a very positive number of changes and looks like it shall continue that trend far into the future. So as one that was around for the NGE with SOE I just don't buy the comparison with Cryptic.

 

I agree Gruug. Cryptic screwed up right at the start and they have been trying to make the game better ever since. They have really been talking to the players and are actively trying to make the game better and I feel they are doing it, even if it is slow. I to was around for before the nge and I will honestly say that trying to put cryptic in the same area as sony is just wrong. No other company has tried to screw over their entire playerbase like sony has and SADLY, even now, Sony still doesn't get it. They are still doing the same thing. If sony ever wants a chance to get back in the ring with the big boys, they are going to have to clear out their entire management structure and get people in there that really wants the games to succeed.  One of my favorite sayings from EQ1 was always, You are in OUR world now. Sadly, the management there took that quote the wrong way and let it go to their heads!

I will just say this about comparing cryptic to soe.

John Needham is the CEO of cryptic.  He worked as a senior VP at soe for many years before he joined cryptic and was in charge of marketing, business development, etc.  He is still running cryptic today.

Looking at a lot of the bigger blunders cryptic has pulled or tried to pull there are a lot of similarities, especially things that fall into his field of expertise. 

Plus, Cryptic's response to pissing off their customers has been to ban the complainers and pretend things are just fine, until the sub numbers take a hit, which has been SOE's standard response.