Full disclaimer:  

I like PvP.  I played DAoC and later, Warhammer Online.  I was/am the member of a fairly large guild over at Warhammer on the Badlands server, and I had maxed out characters on both War and DAoC.  I tried Rift out when a large number of my guildmates told me about the game and convinced me to sign up for the beta.

I really, really wanted to like Rift.  I hope those who enjoy the game don't take this as a personal attack, as many tend to do when you dislike their flavor of the month MMO.  (Boy, I took heat from the fanbois for not loving Aion when it came out.)  I'm writing this basically to give my experiences and state why I canceled my pre-order of the game.  I wanted to like the game, my wife wanted to like the game... in the end, we decided to just mess around in WoW some more until another MMO comes out.  

This is why:

1) PvP - I'll admit I went to Rift because people told me it "was like Warhammer" and it "had great PvP" - same thing I was told about Aion, actually.  The PvP in Rift, in my opinion, is lacking.  WoW does PvP better, DAoC did it better - even Warhammer Online does it better.  PvP from levels 1-10 is nonexistant.  Fine.  Not my favorite thing since Warhammer let you level pretty much solely through PvP if you wanted, but I slogged through the boring, repetetive, "gather 10 wolf fur" style PvE quests until I hit level 10.  

Upon hitting level 10, until level 20 you have exactly 1 PvP opportunity - a fast-paced, gets-very-boring-very-quickly style "capture the flag" style "warzone" which is basically another name for one of Warhammer Online's "scenarios" - except Warhammer Online's scenarios were actually fun.  The warzone, being all the PvP content there was for 10 levels, got boring and repetetive very fast.  After level 20 you get access to the occasional "contested world zone" PvP and yet another fast-paced boring warfront.  Calling this game a "PvP" game is completely untrue - it's not a PvP game.  World of Warcraft does PvP better with its instanced battleground system - the Basin and the Gorge offer more fun and a much larger play area for even low-level characters.

Again, just my opinion but... I've seen PvP done much, much better than this.  DAoC had three factions; WoW's battlegrounds and arena-style play just seem better done and more fun, and Warhammer had/has more scenario choices per level and they just seem... well, a lot more fun to me.  

2) PvE - One starting area for all three races.  Again, World of Warcraft just does this *better* - if I want repetetive "gather X amount of things" or "deliver Y to this NPC" quests, I have Cataclysm's new zones to explore.  For the record, I never played WoW before at any great length until Cataclysm came out; I avoided it because of all the horror stories I heard about the community, etc.  Well... I don't know but the community seems fine on the RP server I play on and the PvE is certainly a lot more massive than anything Rift offers.  How many different characters can you try before you get bored to tears of ONE starting area for ALL the races?  Defiant or Guardian, you better get used to the same repetetive gameplay while you level up for all that "fun end game" PvP we hear about - and how many times do we need to hear "you haven't played enough, you need to get above level 25! (or 35, or whatever) before the game gets fun!" - um, if they can't make the game fun and engaging from the get-go, I'm not going to stick around for the end game.  Sorry.

3) "Innovations" like Rifts - So basically they have "dynamic" PQ's that always spawn in the same places that basically amount to a zerg-fest of dozens of characters blindly mashing buttons.  You succeed if you have the numbers; you get killed if you don't.  Period.  It's a numbers game and it gets boring, fast.  For those of you who are having fun with the dynamic rift system, more power to ya.  I just didn't see it. 

What I liked about RIft:

In short, the graphics are decent.  The interface is pretty.  The character models are pretty.  They don't allow Mods, which apparently a lot of people are liking a lot.  (Mods like GearScore in WoW and NerfedButtons in Warhammer Online just ruined the experience for a lot of people - plus I personally would rather see developers ADD needed features themselves as opposed to needing to go to curse or whatever to keep my mods updated constantly as the game is patched.  So, I like the "no mod use planned" stance of the dev team so far.)  

What they do have seems like 1/10th of a workable game - there just isn't enough... stuff... there to keep me occupied and happy.  For a themepark MMO, I think going "big" is the best - WoW already exists with tons of zones, quests, and different racial starting areas to keep you busy.  What makes Trion think people would leave for a 1-20 experience that gets old... very fast?  (And if the game is so much better at later levels, why not spread some of that love into the teen levels, at least?  Sheesh!)

Rift, to me, seems like ONE racial starting zone in WoW done very, very prettily... but you best not have to run through it too many times as it will get old fast.

What I would recommend to people who plan on trying the game, head over to Trion's website and get a VIP beta code by signing up for their newsletter and/or pre-ordering... but play the beta and cancel your pre-order if you have the same experience I did.  Like I said, maybe it's just because I don't have much experience with WoW (I went from EQ to DAoC to DDO to WAR... with a few others played in between) - but I'm having a lot more fun mucking about with my goblin warlock, even in PvP, than I was in Rift.

Given the fact that WoW is billed as a "PvE" game and Rift was supposed to be "PvP" it's just very disappointing to me to see the battlegrounds in WoW both more fun and fleshed out than the sad little 10-20 warzone was in Rift.  Seriously, how many fast paced 5 minute warzone battles can you have on the same small map in Rift before you just log off in disappointment?

To those who like the game, I'm happy for you that you found something to fill your time and I hope that it continues to please you in the months ahead.  Any successful MMO is, in my opinion, a good thing for the hobby - this one just had some much hype behind it... half my guild canceled their pre-orders and are going back to War, or to WoW, or simply waiting for the next big thing to come out.

Definitely "try before you buy" with this title.

One of the things I found a bit... interesting... about the community there is how people responded to me when I asked questions in general chat.

Me:

"Is there any PvP leveling available except the warfronts from levels 10-30"

Random beta community answers:

"Rift really isn't a PvP game - go play something else"

"Well there are warzones - play the same warzone over and over again!"

"Go back to WoW NOOB" (Which is interesting because I never played WoW much at all except in passing until Rift completely disappointed me... one of my former guildies from WAR told me to check out WoW's battlegrounds and such and you know what?  They actually have some pretty fun PvP content in WoW now.)

Now, if someone makes an up-to-date RvR style PvP game like DAoC with at least 3 factions I'll drop everything else in life and play it exclusively.  :D

Originally posted by Justarius1

Full disclaimer:  

I like PvP.  I played DAoC and later, Warhammer Online.  I was/am the member of a fairly large guild over at Warhammer on the Badlands server. . .

I stopped right there.  The vast majority of the market considers WAR utter crap as evident by their underwhelming, sad, pathetic subscribership, really.  Any comparison to WAR, when WAR is compared to as a reputable comparison, is a false comparison and as a result, holds no credibility.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Justarius1

One of the things I found a bit... interesting... about the community there is how people responded to me when I asked questions in general chat.

 

Me:

"Is there any PvP leveling available except the warfronts from levels 10-30"

 

Random beta community answers:

"Rift really isn't a PvP game - go play something else"

"Well there are warzones - play the same warzone over and over again!"

"Go back to WoW NOOB" (Which is interesting because I never played WoW much at all except in passing until Rift completely disappointed me... one of my former guildies from WAR told me to check out WoW's battlegrounds and such and you know what?  They actually have some pretty fun PvP content in WoW now.)

 

Now, if someone makes an up-to-date RvR style PvP game like DAoC with at least 3 factions I'll drop everything else in life and play it exclusively.  :D

GW2 is going for a DAoC style PvP

World V World PvP
World vs World, WvW, World PvP or Casual PvP, is a mode of Player versus Player combat which takes place in the Mists. Worlds, or servers, are randomly matched up against two other worlds. Those match-ups will be rotated every week to match worlds against those of similar strength. The combat is open and features many objectives and roles which players can do; "players may decide to fight alone against a supply caravan, join a single group and capture a mine or create a large alliance to assault one of the numerous fortress that could give an advantage in the zone." The battle is on a large scale, where hundreds of people can fight on each side in week-long battles.

Each opposing world starts out with castles, mercenary camps, mines, lumber mills and villages. Separating the starting zones are neutral zones controlled by no one, also containing fortresses, mines, and villages.

The resources gained from mines and lumber mills are used to rebuild walls, create siege engines, and generally defend the team's fortress.

These territories and control points will confer benefits to the world that controls them; "maybe everyone gets increased energy regeneration or healing rate or enhanced loot drop rate." Players can gain experience and level their character in World PvP. Guilds will be able to take and hold keeps.

Players are free to come and go from the battle as they please and there is no limit to the number of players entering. Players enter with a character of any level and use skills they have available to that character. Characters can enter as a sidekick which will allow them to play as a higher level character.

World PvP is intended as a casual form of PvP, designed to be a more relaxed bridging point between PvE and the tactics and pressure of structured PvP. It is hoped that players of any level or PvP experience can participate and be useful.
From the GW2 Wiki

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/287180/Everything-We-Know-about-GW2.html

Played both WOW and RIFT 1-35 and RIFT wins hands down. I plan on posting a review once I hit 50 in live and have done some of the end game content. I would hate to waste a wot on something I havent experienced yet.

i love rift, i think its fun.

Originally posted by Elwind

Fanboys inbound.

 @OP I appologize, but I didn't read your whole post, just skim read because it is becomming painful to read all the trolling and flaming going on. I'm sure you have some valid points, but is saying that Rift isn't as good as WoW really necessary? I personally think it is better and handles things in very different ways than WoW does, which is refreshing.

Take leveling in WoW: queque for instance (queque was intended as a pun, even though it's not that funny.. like QQ... yeah.) and repeat until lvl 80. PvP: queue for reskinned battlegrounds Endgame: get the best gear or you are auto-fail

Rift: Explore, collecting artifacts, quests, and little easter eggs/puzzles (as a more traditional MMO would have you do) and closing those rifts and killing off invasions to level, then PvP in the battlegrounds or start invasions/raids of enemy territory (which is the main form of PvP, it's called open world PvP and is HUGE in F2P games)

@Elwind Hello!

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by Justarius1

One of the things I found a bit... interesting... about the community there is how people responded to me when I asked questions in general chat.

 

Me:

"Is there any PvP leveling available except the warfronts from levels 10-30"

 

Random beta community answers:

"Rift really isn't a PvP game - go play something else"

"Well there are warzones - play the same warzone over and over again!"

"Go back to WoW NOOB" (Which is interesting because I never played WoW much at all except in passing until Rift completely disappointed me... one of my former guildies from WAR told me to check out WoW's battlegrounds and such and you know what?  They actually have some pretty fun PvP content in WoW now.)

 

Now, if someone makes an up-to-date RvR style PvP game like DAoC with at least 3 factions I'll drop everything else in life and play it exclusively.  :D

GW2 is going for a DAoC style PvP

 

World V World PvP
World vs World, WvW, World PvP or Casual PvP, is a mode of Player versus Player combat which takes place in the Mists. Worlds, or servers, are randomly matched up against two other worlds. Those match-ups will be rotated every week to match worlds against those of similar strength. The combat is open and features many objectives and roles which players can do; "players may decide to fight alone against a supply caravan, join a single group and capture a mine or create a large alliance to assault one of the numerous fortress that could give an advantage in the zone." The battle is on a large scale, where hundreds of people can fight on each side in week-long battles.

Each opposing world starts out with castles, mercenary camps, mines, lumber mills and villages. Separating the starting zones are neutral zones controlled by no one, also containing fortresses, mines, and villages.

The resources gained from mines and lumber mills are used to rebuild walls, create siege engines, and generally defend the team's fortress.

These territories and control points will confer benefits to the world that controls them; "maybe everyone gets increased energy regeneration or healing rate or enhanced loot drop rate." Players can gain experience and level their character in World PvP. Guilds will be able to take and hold keeps.

Players are free to come and go from the battle as they please and there is no limit to the number of players entering. Players enter with a character of any level and use skills they have available to that character. Characters can enter as a sidekick which will allow them to play as a higher level character.

World PvP is intended as a casual form of PvP, designed to be a more relaxed bridging point between PvE and the tactics and pressure of structured PvP. It is hoped that players of any level or PvP experience can participate and be useful.
From the GW2 Wiki

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/287180/Everything-We-Know-about-GW2.html

I am actually very much looking forward to GW2!  (I know a lot of folk who are, actually...)

A game with DAoC style PvP... (drool, drool, drool...) 

Another review of the tutorial. Awesome!

i just want to say that "THIS IS BETA!" all the pvp zones are not available yet. matter of fact i think the notes for the open beta on the 15 say that the rest of the pvp zones are opening. i hope you give it another go at open beta. its at least worth a shot. i didnt give your post a full read as its read pretty much like anyone else who doesnt like the game. but to dislike a game that hasnt even let you see what it all has in store is just "incomplete!"

Other then that, take care and enjoy whatever game you can till you can enjoy something else that's comming out and anything after that. its a gamers market.

edit: not all just 3

The level cap will be raised to 42 and three PvP 'warzones' will be available for players to explore.

Originally posted by Justarius1

I am actually very much looking forward to GW2!  (I know a lot of folk who are, actually...)

 A game with DAoC style PvP... (drool, drool, drool...) 

And here we go. Another GW2 propaganda thread started in a Rift forum.

Originally posted by Vypre

Originally posted by Justarius1

Full disclaimer:  

I like PvP.  I played DAoC and later, Warhammer Online.  I was/am the member of a fairly large guild over at Warhammer on the Badlands server. . .

I stopped right there.  The vast majority of the market considers WAR utter crap as evident by their underwhelming, sad, pathetic subscribership, really.  Any comparison to WAR, when WAR is compared to as a reputable comparison, is a false comparison and as a result, holds no credibility.

 

Sorry.

Warhammer actually has some fun pvp. There are other things about the game that make it undesirable but pvp is not one of them. From what I understand the OP is coming from a pvp point of view.

WAR PvP was mundane, shallow, and well, pointless.  Perhaps one of the reasons why they boast about a 100,000 player-base. 

Originally posted by Vypre

WAR PvP was mundane, shallow, and well, pointless.  Perhaps one of the reasons why they boast about a 100,000 player-base. 

And Rift's PvP is somehow not "mundane, shallow, and well, pointless."?

its funny how people call RIft a WoW Clone but in the end, people say . pvp is not like WoW, wow did Better, Pve is better in WoW

its all grind , when WoW came out its was a grind game, there was not even a battleground and pvp sucked bad, still dose, its after expension and expension that the xp and quest go up and then the xp in battleground apair,

i love very much Rift the only think i hate is the fact that i spend my time trying to find a good soul to play and still did not find out with 1 i will play

I have some issues with your post

First I was not under the impression that rift is a PvP game. Warhammer and Aion were pretty much all PvP. Rift i really dont find it a full out PvP game.

Second it really seems you still got your hard on for WOW and unlike people who left end of BC or beggining of WOLTK know that its had its time and now its just a full out kids game.

Third I think its funny that you are comparing a game that is over 6 years old to a game that is still in Beta.

People these days always want something better, but then when something good comes along they always find something to complain about. Most decent MMO's that were created were not that good in beta or even a month or two after release.

Its funny.  You spend half the post talking about how you are just stating your gaming opinion yet teh first thing out of your mouth is calling Rift just a "flavor of the month" game.

Its also doesn't help when the first reply is from some schmuck saying "enter fonboys".  Both of you pretty much set teh table in this thread that anyone who remotely likes teh game are fanboys.  no wonder there's so much bad blood on these boards.

I personally will not be playing this game.  But its not as bad as some people say.  Most people knocking the game don't like those kinds of MMO's.  Its like going to the resident evil forums and complaniing that its just another zombie shooter game.  It is what it is.

We get it.  There are lots of people that don't like the so "old-fashion" theme park grind MMORPG's.  But there's also tons of gamers that love them and play them.  If that wasn't true you wouldn't have had succesful MMO's like WoW or LOTRO.

So basically we can some up 99% of yours and most other's gripes about this game:  "I don;t want to play old fashion MMO's anymore".

On a side note:  I do agree with your assessment of PvP.  I dont know how anyone can compare the pvp in Rift to any good pvp MMORPG's.  There's just nothing to pvp right now.  Hopefully it will change.  But I don't think it will for a long time.

Who were you and what guild on badlands?  Hope you aren't that terrible WP whos name sounds very similar to yours :P.

Some very good points in this post, even if you do not agree.  And I think this post shows something huge about MMOs in general.

People who are or have played WoW will expect new games to have pretty much the same thing.  They will expect the level of polish a game that has been out that long.  They will expect things to flow like that game.  That's something most people who look at reviews know.  It's rather unfair now, but at the same time, it's how it needs to be.

Your average gamer will look at a game and compare everything to WoW.  Devs basically need to do the same thing if they are making a similar type of game.  The OP may not enjoy the game while some do.  But I'm sure both sides, those that hate and those that like, sit back and think, "gosh, this aspect is better and that aspect is much worse".

I think games really need to do the exact thing WOW is so famous for.  Take aspects of other games that people enjoy and make them better with added polish.

I made it to level 28 in the beta and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I am not a PvP player and really enjoyed the dynamics of the game.  I have played WoW  (not my cup of tea), LOTRO (three years now), AION (Did some PvP, then realized it really did not work), EQ2, Vanguard, Perfect World, Guild Wars, and a few others. I have pre-ordered Rift and look forward to playing it (at least till GW2 comes out). 

Originally posted by Vypre

Originally posted by Justarius1

Full disclaimer:  

I like PvP.  I played DAoC and later, Warhammer Online.  I was/am the member of a fairly large guild over at Warhammer on the Badlands server. . .

I stopped right there.  The vast majority of the market considers WAR utter crap as evident by their underwhelming, sad, pathetic subscribership, really.  Any comparison to WAR, when WAR is compared to as a reputable comparison, is a false comparison and as a result, holds no credibility.

 

Sorry.

Believe it or not, there are people who like WAR. It really does have some fun PvP. Personally, I prefer WAR over Rift.

"The vast majority of the market..." doesn't matter. What matters is your opinion. Don't rely on other people to tell you what you like. Read everyday decision-making.