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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How large are MMO worlds now REALLY? A comparison in world sizes

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  Rabiator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/22/05
Posts: 358

3/22/11 4:43:01 PM#141

A few words about EVE:

It is not really comparable, due to its system of warp transits and gate connections that partitions the world into many "bubbles" of space.  There are basically two tiers of locations:

1) Star systems. According to a thread on the EVE forums (from 2008) I just googled, there are 5201 systems that are reachable by players.

2) Locations in a star system. Those consist of
  • Planets
  • Moons
  • Jumpgates to other systems
  • the local sun
plus oddities like nav points in deep space which a player might acquire during missions (mission locations are not instanced, but set somewhere in interplanetary space). Travel between these locations is only possible via warp drive.
 
Each such location has a warp-in point where players travelling to the location appear. Around this warp-in point, ships can interact with each other with a visibility range of maybe 300km. I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics, but for most practical purposes the area around a warp-in point can be treated as a bubble of local space some hundred kilometers across.
 
In my experience as a former EVE plyer, we can assume several locations per star system, which gives us some 10.000 of the "bubbles" mentioned above. That means EVE certainly beats any other game world on sheer size. There is, however, not much to find at many of those locations.
  JaggaSpikes

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 407

3/29/11 6:37:40 AM#142
Originally posted by Loke666

Speaking of size, do anyone remember the single player game Daggerfall: The elder scrolls part II?

...

Here is the map, note that the cities were huge and that the whole game was uninstanced:

This game should really be made into a MMO. :)

this is the map for The Elder Scrolls I: Arena. Daggerfall had "smaller" map encompassing High Rock, and parts of Hammerfell and Skyrim. it was still quite huge.

  bongo123

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/06
Posts: 308

3/29/11 7:50:10 AM#143

i think WOW has this one in the bag hands down with its huge seemless landmasses offering up hugely varied landscapes

  User Deleted
3/29/11 8:46:24 AM#144

EVE wins eaily given it has no actual border. If you go to a system, that is furthest from the center, and travel away from the center you will travel infinetly (or until the server shuts down). Thus you can never actually 'cross' the distance. If you measure by autopiloting from one system on the edge of the galaxy to the other, that should be 99 jumps, which at shuttle speed would take a couple hours. The actual playable space is infinite as well given its dynamically created.

I agree its not really comparable to land based games.

source: planetriskshow.com

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  3/29/11 2:42:24 PM#145
Originally posted by bongo123

i think WOW has this one in the bag hands down with its huge seemless landmasses offering up hugely varied landscapes

Nope, I don't think so. Vanguard for example already has a world that's seamless and that is larger than WoW. There are several other MMO's who dealt in large MMO worlds as shown in the OP.

Of course, those often didn't have the same high content density that WoW had, they were only larger.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  ArChWind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 494

3/29/11 7:58:19 PM#146
Originally posted by Phelcher

When I have time (dig up some old HD's) I will see if I have any of the old data from 2004'ish..

 

Even though the emperical data is gone, I still know the derivitives of all those years of research. The many arguments, community efforts and even debates on how to gether such info is old news. (ie: Been there, done that) I'm 41 and the "why?" of the matter, no longer matters as only to give a rough estimate...

What I can tell you is how each game world and it's perspective technology (ie: server farm/IT make up) direcly influences what type of game it is and how developers fool people, or hide their limitation & functionality, etc..

Mind you...  I am more concerned with moving MMORPG forward in technologies and least concerned with petty businessmen, looking to make their $$, using the cheapest form of subscription plan to maximize their profit & not your experience.

 

 

I have beta tested 23+ MMORPG's, starting with Ultima Online, up to Aion/Conan/Darkfall era..    In that time I can tell you how interplay between each game's mechanics worked, or that a game's "world size"  -does not equal-   "map size". Meaning, a rough estimate is good enough. Which most are. So it (game world size) no longer matters..  only if the game world is real and is open.

To me, MMORPG need to move to this format and stop maximizing profits using the WoW/EQ format of zones.

 

 

Coincidentally, gIven ur comments (above), you didn't grasp/comprehend the importance of that statement, as most wouldn't. Simply because they don't look @ MMORPG in terms of how it's delivered to them, only about graphics and animations, etc. (ie: superficial). I didn't say "seamless",  I said open world (360 degree content).

AKA Darkfall, Vanguard, Mortal Online, etc...

DAOC & WoW are seamless, but that only means as you travel between zones, there is no loading screen, or need to "zone-in", such as there was in Everquest. An open world CAN have load times (ie: hitching), but that open world has no artifical boundries and the vista is real.

That's important. For one reason, each individual person is a story within the world and not just a character in a module.

 

 

For example: the epotome of cheapness (design and server cost/structure) & the most un-inspiring game world within any MMORPG, would have to be Turbine's Dungeon & Dragon's Online. The entire game world consist of ally's, docks, marketways, with "instancing" everywhere. There really is no world to play in. It is just cheap arcade action, not really a MMORPG. On the exact opposite side of the spectrum, you have Mortal Online. Which is an incredible endeavor and bring back traveling as an adventure.

Given the size of a simple WoW "battlegrounds", a player in MO could get lost...  because it is a true 360 degree of content, with no zone walls, no funneled content, etc.

 

So, I really do think you should try and differentiate world size into catagories (open world & zoned). Because Everquest is still the biggest (no EVE can't touch it) and it would take you days just to run through half of the zones, but you'd hardly get lost exploring. And that is why 360 content (real world) is important technology.

 

 

I think you mean streaming worlds not 360 worlds. A 360 world is finite in sense that you transverse the world in complete circle. New technology is using streaming to visualize the world instead of seamless which limits the view distances. Streaming worlds terrain size for a single zone in one cluster can exceed the hard drive capability of most machines. I have ran a number of tests on new technology MMO engines and I am surprised at the insane size of the worlds possible. Crossing one of these terrains in a north/south or east/west direction takes 4 to 6 hours at normal run speed. Current limitations of just terrain on one engine is 100 Km square (10,000,000,000 square meters) given it is run on a single cluster but if you start ghosting outside the boundaries and chain clusters together the world size can exceed the earths size.
 
Anyway, the fact is to put the content on such a beast would take years to mask in models using procedural programming. The future holds a possibility that with middleware such as speedtree, speedgrass, city engine and a few others plus hard drives exceeding 10 terra bytes the possibility of massive worlds a reality.
 
As of existing worlds,  Vanguard is probably the best in size to content ratio for a streamed world and EQ is the largest in size.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  TenBlue

Novice Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 94

4/04/11 7:29:41 PM#147

World War 2 Online has to be up there.  It would take days to run across the entire map.

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 695

Make worlds not stories

4/06/11 8:42:40 PM#148

Not that size really is that important, but if you count zoned games and combine zones into a large area, I would say everquest is several times bigger than whatever is mentioned as the biggest here. Same goes for EVE, although it is kind of a different category in my opinion.

Also come on VG is big but you can run any continent in less than 30 mins, I would say its about the same size as wow vanilla was.

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/07/11 2:09:26 AM#149
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

For a while now I've been curious about the actual world sizes of various MMORPG's, not just subjective perception but concrete figures.

Yes, I know such a comparison between gameworlds has been made earlier, as can be found on this site and others, but to put it bluntly, that comparison and picture is false and a lie.

Not that I know the exact measurements of all the worlds in the games mentioned there, but several of them like LotrO and GW Nightfall are way off the mark, in fact they're so ridiculously wrong that it simply astounds me that all the sites where I found that picture just copied its figures as fact and true, without doing even the slightest factchecking.

 


 

....

 

That was all what I could find so far. Darkfall is said to be very large (see for a comparison with WoW's Kalimdor here), EQ had 350 square miles explorable environment at launch (source), of EVE Online it has been stated that it takes 4 hours to cross the universe from one side to the other and Vanguard was said to be as large as Madagascar - which I found hard to believe - but that's all I could find so far.

This thread is a work in progress, if I find more concrete measurements or do some more tests I'll include it here, but if people have found more concrete info and measurements, especially stuff that isn't in this post yet, let me know and post it in this thread.

The purpose is to get the accurate figures of world size of all the current MMORPG's around.

 

 

Awesome work OP.

you might want to look at this thread too:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2587797#2587797

 

For what it is worth - I have some additional measures on Champions Online, Spellborn and WAR (and some others too IIRC)

I mostly agree with your method - but would make the following comments

 

Besides actual ingame size in square miles (or km), 2 other aspects are important to figure size out, and that's crossing distance and run speed.

crossing distance: the time it takes to travel at normal speed from one end of the map to the other end in a straight line without hindrances, as a bird could fly it

=> the most accurate way to figure this out, is to run in a straight line for 0.5-1 min, check on the map what distance you've crossed and then use this and extrapolate it to find the length and width of a map or continent in crossing time.

 

run speed: this is the actual ingame travel speed, crossing time doesn't mean much when you can travel in 1 MMO twice as fast at normal speed as in another MMO. It's crossing distance and run speed that give an accurate picture.

=> There's 3 ways to figure run speed out:

1. Use a human avatar of average height to get an estimation of size ingame, and then use this to figure out distances ingame (use a corpse or avatar that lies down on the ground, average human = 1.7-1.8m = x pixels etc)

2. Use the measures that are ingame (eg some spells have a range of 25m etc)

3. The most circumvential method, set your screen resolution at the same measurements for several MMORPG's, then take an object in the distance, for example, 2 inch high in all of the MMORPG's, and then measure how long it takes for you to reach it in each MMORPG. This should result in the run speeds in the several MMO's comparative to each other.

 

Run Speed?

Sorry - but this gains you nothing.  All MMOs are scaled to some degree. 

And what do you do if the Devs reprint the specs of those spells?  Recalculate everything?

As soon as you start introducing 'real world' measures you get people who confuse the whole issue by losing sight of the main goal and start quoting 'real world' measures.  (See posts on EvE "It spans light years!")

And what about MMOs where there is no 'run' - like PotBS and EvE?  Or even some browser based MMOs?

Because once you remove 'run speed' you can include games like 'Urban Dead' into your figures too.

 

To highlight the reason why 'run speed' and attempting to interpolate real world measures into game world sizes see this post http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2589606#2589606

Okay.  Really geeky day today but here are some results.

I started with World War II On Line: Battleground Europe (WWIIoL) because I figured this would be huge and would also help to demonstrate why times are more important than distances measured in km or miles.  Measuring in these units can lead to considerable confusion.  Read on to see why.

WWIIoL has a massive map .  It stretches from Ireland in the west to Sweden in the East and from Norway in the North to Switzerland in the South.  That said, most of that land is barren.  It is only the middle of that area that has towns and terrain.
Measuring the size is easy because it is a real world setting.  The total map is approx 900km x 750km {560miles x 470miles}.
Of that however only about 550km x 300km {340miles x 190miles} is properly mapped with towns and roads and vegetation.
This is where we also start to see why using real world measures breaks down... this so far really tells you very little.
So, on to giving you something useful to work with:
A couple of patches ago the WWIIoL theatre map had a radar function added and the map was broken into a grid.
The total map is 63 x 57 grid squares.  The developed part of that is approx 19 1/2 x 10 1/2 grid squares.
So, I set out with a rifleman from Antwerp to run toward Brussels which is a little over a 'grid square' away.

It took 70 minutes to cross a grid square on autorun (no sprinting).
That means that the developed WWIIoL map would take about 22 3/4 hours to run across W-E and about 12 1/2 hours N-S.
So, based on the info given on the Darkfall Travel times the WWIIoL map (the developed part) is more than 20 times bigger than Agon.

Based on the PC Gamer calculations the WWIIoL map (the developed part) is about 80 miles x 44 miles = 3,520 square miles or about 50 times the size of  Eastern Kingdom and Kalimdoor in WoW.

It's a huge map.  However, you don't quest on that map and in MMO terms there are very few features (no crafting, questing etc)

 

And to confuse matters still further - this is the data I was sent by BLOO (a WWIIoL Dev) on the subject

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showpost.php?p=4295882&postcount=47 (WWIIoL Sub required)

Ignoring the 'map' part of the terrain and scaling issues, and focusing only on the literal distance within the virtual environment (infantry ~1.6 m tall or so, etc.), and not cutting out the bits of the channel within the rectangle of Eastchurch in the Northwest corner, Lohmar on the East edge, Nijmegen on the North edge, and Metz on the South edge, the developed, playable area is:

North-South: 169.9 km
East-West: 307.2 km
Total fighting area: 52,101 km sq

 

 

Next I measured Pirates of the Burning Sea (PotBS).
Another real world setting.  This time it is the
entire Caribbean.  From Mexico in the West to Guyana in the East and Charleston in the North to Panama in the South.
In real world terms this is approx 4000km x 3000km {2500miles x 1900miles}.
And using this would suggest that it is in fact twenty times bigger again than the WWIIoL map?
Only it isn't.
The game world in this case has been shrunk down and compressed to make travel times more reasonable.
So, in game terms how big is it?
Well, in this case you cannot 'run' as the basic unit is a ship.
So, I took a level one character in a Halifax Schooner (no buffs) and sailed from the coast NE of Charlesfort (Charleston) to the eastern edge of the map (about 1/2 way across the entire map W-E) and then south to Guyana (which is the entire distance N-S)  This route also avoided the 'trade currents' (speed buff).
My times were 20mins on the first leg and 25 minutes on the second leg (the hardest part getting a favorable wind!)
This suggests that the PotBS map is about 40mins x 25mins which translates to approx 2.3miles x 1.5miles = 3.5 square miles using the PC Gamer conversion.
That makes the PotBS world about 20 times smaller than the Eastern Kingdom and Kalimdoor in WoW.
But, it's more confusing still because the PotBS world is a hybrid of instances involving some character Avatar and some ship Avatar travel...

 

So, I hope that all makes sense?
I also hope it illustrates why I think measuring the size of MMO 'worlds' should be done using travel times of a basic unit.
Converting that to a distance in kilometres or miles can lead to considerable confusion of the argument!

 

So, I hope that demonstrates why I do not use anything besides raw travel time as data?

In addition, in PotBS you (theoretically) could work out the size of a 'man' on the travel map by scaling off the ship avatars... and then calculate the size of the world from that... you would find that the 'men' would be giants and the sailing speeds faster than anything possible.

 

Anyway - feel free to PM me OP.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/07/11 2:15:09 AM#150

My data from the thread quoted in previous post
 

PotBS is the smallest game measured so far at 0.275 Square TU
WoW is about 5 times bigger than PotBS at an estimated 1.426 Square TU
Darkfall (if esimates are to be believed?) is about 6 times as big as WoW at 9.0 Square TU
- That would make Darkfall 32 times as big as PotBS.
WWIIoL has the biggest play area (not total area) at 284.375 Square TU making it 31 times bigger than Darkfall, 200 times bigger than WoW and about a thousand times bigger than PotBS!

Now NOTE: (before you all get your knickers in a knot and try to lynch me...)
None of this represents gameplay, content, game elements or the enjoyability of the games.
It's simply an out and out 'size' comparison.
WWIIoL is huge - but most of the map (away from the front lines) is unpopulated most of the time.

 

My methodology:

TU Defined as: The distance a basic character / avatar / vessel* can move in one hour at a standard pace**.
*Basic character is the default character at new character creation. Unbuffed by skills, abilities or equipment. Preferably human if possible.
** Standard Pace: At a run (since this is the default mode for most MMOs). Not at a sprint.
In games using vessels this is to be at maximum cruising speed.
*** Why use this unit? Because it eliminates arguments over what is a kilometre / mile etc and allows games like EvE to be fairly compared.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  MMO.Maverick

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Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  4/07/11 2:34:54 AM#151
Originally posted by Gyrus

Awesome work OP.

you might want to look at this thread too:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2587797#2587797

 

 Anyway - feel free to PM me OP.

Heh, I already did, it was one of the threads I encountered in my ongoing search for more data gathered by likewise souls

 

I haven't much time, so I'm going to react upon your posts later, it all looks interesting and helpful - especially if you also have additional data from MMO worlds of several MMO's.

But I'll react quickly upon the the run speed thing.

The size in itself is meaningless, distance has only proportional meaning in relation to the avatar's size. The run speed I mention purely for its use in combination with measured distances, to put it in perspective, the crossing time I mention because that's the thing you usually can figure out quickest in an MMORPG: the crossing distance, how long it takes to cross a certain distance in a straight line, and how long it'd take you to cross say a continent from one end to the other if you were able to do it in a straight line.

Of course, distance will be better, but it's the combination of known distance and the run speed that can be used when comparing between different MMO's.

 

Anyway, thanks for your info, I'll definitely get back to your posts when I have more time later on the day.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/07/11 3:22:02 AM#152
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

...

But I'll react quickly upon the the run speed thing.

The size in itself is meaningless, distance has only proportional meaning in relation to the avatar's size. The run speed I mention purely for its use in combination with measured distances, to put it in perspective, the crossing time I mention because that's the thing you usually can figure out quickest in an MMORPG: the crossing distance, how long it takes to cross a certain distance in a straight line, and how long it'd take you to cross say a continent from one end to the other if you were able to do it in a straight line.

Of course, distance will be better, but it's the combination of known distance and the run speed that can be used when comparing between different MMO's.

However, using this approach you find that games like PotBS and STO (to name two) can never be compared to others.

Quite simply, the developers have taken so many liberties with scaling (Travel Map and Sector Space respectively) that you would never be able to get a fair comparison.  They are not alone in this.

And then there is the issue of how tall a man actually is (for example) - you note that the WWIIoL Dev quotes an Avatar size of 1.6m (about 5'3") which is pretty short even for troops born in the prevoius century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

A 5% difference between a 'guess' of 1.8m and 1.7m is certainly enough for geeks to argue over - and it's simply not necessary when you are muliplying by time anyway.

Just use your base data.  Time.  Call the distance a "Time Unit" (or whatever you like)

And the great thing is that it is something anyone can easily varify.

 

But really - using miles or km will lead you to a world of hurt.  Because Devs can then dispute your data with a one line post which they don't even need to be able to 'prove'.

 

For example:

WWIIoL

North-South: 169.9 km
East-West: 307.2 km
Total fighting area: 52,101 km sq

PotBS

4000km x 3000km

Total area 12,000,000 km sq

Anyone who has played both games can tell you how 'meaningless' that data is.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  MMO.Maverick

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Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  4/07/11 4:58:00 PM#153
Originally posted by Gyrus

However, using this approach you find that games like PotBS and STO (to name two) can never be compared to others.

Quite simply, the developers have taken so many liberties with scaling (Travel Map and Sector Space respectively) that you would never be able to get a fair comparison.  They are not alone in this.

And then there is the issue of how tall a man actually is (for example) - you note that the WWIIoL Dev quotes an Avatar size of 1.6m (about 5'3") which is pretty short even for troops born in the prevoius century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

A 5% difference between a 'guess' of 1.8m and 1.7m is certainly enough for geeks to argue over - and it's simply not necessary when you are muliplying by time anyway.

Just use your base data.  Time.  Call the distance a "Time Unit" (or whatever you like)

And the great thing is that it is something anyone can easily varify.

 

But really - using miles or km will lead you to a world of hurt.  Because Devs can then dispute your data with a one line post which they don't even need to be able to 'prove'.

 

 

Alright, I took some time to read all your posts and check your links - btw, your link for Darkfall in that '09 thread doesn't work anymore, the one where you link to the guy who did the actual measuring?

 

As for crossing distance/crossing time, I agree that it's the easiest and quickest way to get a fast, rough impression of the size of a world. Someone can have the feeling that a continent is so big that it would take 2 hours just to cross, but if you have hard figures that it's only 40 minutes when traveled in a straight line, while it takes 35 minutes to cross continent B in another MMORPG, then you can compare.

 

2 problems with this:

- if the run speed varies from 1 MMO to the next, then that crossing distance measured in minutes becomes deceptive. A good example is Rift, where you run slower at normal speed than in MMO's like WoW or LotrO. In fact, the difference is that large that it'd take 15 minutes to travel the same distance in Rift for which you'd need 10 minutes in LotrO or WoW. It's a neat designer trick, decrease the normal run speed, heavily infuse your regions with abundance of mobs, and an MMO world can feel larger than it really is.

- of course, you'd have to work under the assumption that 1 meter in 1 MMO = 1 meter in another MMO. But with the crossing time/distance you work under the assumption that travel speed is the same in all MMO's.

- the 2nd issue is that actual miles or kilometers, or square miles and kilometers, is being used to quantify the size of an world or map. Look at that famous world comparison picture that was posted on several sites, including here on this site. It's all measured in square miles or kilometers, not in the time that it takes to cross a distance by foot or by car or such.

 

So that's why I try to collect more data about the MMO world I want to measure, at first the crossing time, measuring the distance in time traveled, and then in ingame length and surface area, via run speed.

If you find more links or data, feel free to share

Currently I'm working on trying to measure/verify actual size and travel times in classic EQ, explorable landmass in square miles in LotrO and if I can retrieve it, size of Aion and TERA. I already have it for Rift and GW2.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  Explorium

Novice Member

Joined: 9/02/10
Posts: 411

"Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life"

4/07/11 8:56:53 PM#154

I got you all beat, sadly it isn't an MMO. And the world is randomly generated...having said that

 

Minecraft is 1 pedobyte big. Its so big, no hard drive has enough room to store the game if you get a world size too big.

 

Bigger than any game ever. But like I said, its randomly generated and made as you explore...still...

Check out my nature/animal/relaxing music channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/TheExplorium

My game channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/vendayn

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2323

4/07/11 10:21:37 PM#155

- if the run speed varies from 1 MMO to the next, then that crossing distance measured in minutes becomes deceptive. A good example is Rift, where you run slower at normal speed than in MMO's like WoW or LotrO. In fact, the difference is that large that it'd take 15 minutes to travel the same distance in Rift for which you'd need 10 minutes in LotrO or WoW. It's a neat designer trick, decrease the normal run speed, heavily infuse your regions with abundance of mobs, and an MMO world can feel larger than it really is.

If it takes longer to travel across one MMO world than another then they are different sizes.

As humans, our perception of distance is based on travel time and the difficulty of travel.

For example - if you know people who travel alot (internationally) you will find they talk in terms of flight time.  How far is it from London to Sydney?  Who knows... but it is about 24-26 hours travel time.

Your example of Rift only illistrates the point about scaling.  The Rift designers have scaled their world to suit their game - but so have all the other designers.  While you might say "where you run slower at normal speed than in MMO's like WoW or LotrO"  I could say - "you run at the same speed but the distance is greater"

Here are two worlds

World A .......... This one is 10km

World B .......... This one is 50km

You cannot say I am wrong - because I designed them.

Now, suppose it takes 20 minutes to cross World A and 15 minutes to cross world B - which is the bigger world?


 

- of course, you'd have to work under the assumption that 1 meter in 1 MMO = 1 meter in another MMO. But with the crossing time/distance you work under the assumption that travel speed is the same in all MMO's.

Not at all.

You work under the assumption that travel time is the variable to be compared.

The example I often use here is that I could design an MMO called "World of Bugs".

In it you could take 4 hours to travel across the Shagpile Forest to the Mountains of Pillows to defeat mobs of Dust Mites and Fleas in the Puppy Bed Basket Citadel.  Is this a small world?  Does the fact that it takes place in a room measuring 4 metres by 3 metres matter?  Or that your actual travel speed is measured in centimetres per hour?  Not at all.  It's a big world because of the scaling applied and the perception of distance players get.  What gives them that perception?  Travel time.

- the 2nd issue is that actual miles or kilometers, or square miles and kilometers, is being used to quantify the size of an world or map. Look at that famous world comparison picture that was posted on several sites, including here on this site. It's all measured in square miles or kilometers, not in the time that it takes to cross a distance by foot or by car or such.

And that is why it's wrong.  And that's why both you and I set out (using our own methods) to varify this data.

Using any comparison like this - EvE always wins because it spans "light years"

Besides which, if you start factoring in 'run speed' then you cannot fairly compare any MMO that does not use human avatars.


 

But, rather than argue the point - here is a challenge for you.

Include the following MMOs in your list

EvE Online (Avatars are spaceships)

Pirates of the Burning Sea (Avatars are Tall Ships - and scaling issues will prove very difficult)

http://mmohut.com/wp-content/gallery/pirates-of-the-burning-sea/pirates-of-the-burning-sea-travel-seas.jpg

Do you scale from the ships? Or the towns? Or use real world map distances?


 

Star Trek Online

http://procrastinationamplification.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/screenshot_2010-01-18-13-28-49.jpg

http://knights.calltoreason.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/startrek_04.jpg

What do you scale from here? The ships? And which one? Or the planets? Or the arbitary 'distances' quoted by the developers?

 

Urban Dead (Free Browser based MMO)

 

Pardus (Free Browser based MMO)

 

 

Ultimately – in most (if not all?) those examples the only meaningful data that can be easily obtained is travel time. In many it would be impossible to calculate any kind of run speed comparible to other games.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  MMO.Maverick

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Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  4/08/11 5:08:42 AM#156

Let me say beforehand that I agree that crossing distance and time are important measuring variables when you want to compare worldsizes across MMO's.

Where I disagree is that those are the only measuring variables that are important. In my opinion: actual size in square km/miles, and the run speed that's needed to determine that actual size, are important and handy as well.

 

Regarding the examples you used, that's a simple one:  if crossing distance and time is the only variable that I can determine, then that's where it stays. However, if I can figure out the size of your ship in EVE or the 'run' speed in those games, then I'll add those variables to my list and  I'll see if I can get a size of the distance, measured in the ingame used miles or km's.

 

All the issues and questions you raised, I've wrestled with them as well.

For example, if you could play a giant of 100 meters high, and you could travel 400m/s then your sensation of the world would be a lot different than when playing the normal characters, as giant the world would feel a lot smaller.

In the same way, if you play a gnome in EQ/WoW or a fairy in EQ2, then your sensation of the travel speed is different than when playing an ogre, even if the travel speed is the same.

The same if everyone could use a speeder or horse right from the start: would this mean that the world is smaller as well?

 

Like said, I use length in km/miles and square km/miles, because that's the measurement type that other people are using, that data is already available to be used. If they're right can be verified as well: for example, I know that in that other comparison picture where video worlds are measured, they're way off for GW Nightfall and LotrO, when looked at the ingame definition of a meter. In the same way I know that the figures for WoW of 80 square miles is only true if the person that gave it off meant explorable landmass of WoW, not the total size of its world.

To know if a definition of a meter in an MMORPG is something that is comparable with the RL definition, to see if it's proportional, you pick a average sized human or humanoid character, assume it's 1.7-1.8m high, and then see how many times your character would fit in a ranged 10-15m. Granted, that's no exact science, but this would teach you very quickly whether the devs have defined the character heights to be something like 3 to 4 of their ingame meters, or like 0.5-1 meter by their definition.

If the results are that your character's height approaches the 1.6-2m range, then you can assume that the designers used ingame measurements that are comparable with RL definition of meters.

 

Long text wall, but basically it comes down to the more info I can find out regarding an MMO world, the better.

To use Rift as an example, I'm not merely satisfied in the crossing time, but also in the actual size of its world if I can find it out, especially if the base travel speed  in one MMO is 4 times an avatar's average height or 2.5 times an avatar's average height.

 

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  Elikal

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Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/08/11 7:23:07 AM#157

Maverik, do you update the 1st post to the always most recent conclusions?

 

Well, dagnabit... but some people telling me here LOTRO is 300 times as big as WOW? NO WAY! I mean, hell, I am no WOW defender, really, and I loved LOTRO waaay more... but 300 times... that just CAN'T be right! I mean, 3 or 4 times or even 10 times... but that... that just sounds totally out of whack! So, what are the latest news in sizes? Can someone make a simple size-list in sqaure miles and square kilometers from 1 to 10 or so for us simpletons so we don't have to dig the entire thread? ^^

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  MMO.Maverick

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Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  4/08/11 7:26:05 AM#158
Originally posted by Elikal

Maverik, do you update the 1st post to the always most recent conclusions?

 

Well, dagnabit... but some people telling me here LOTRO is 300 times as big as WOW? NO WAY! I mean, hell, I am no WOW defender, really, and I loved LOTRO waaay more... but 300 times... that just CAN'T be right! I mean, 3 or 4 times or even 10 times... but that... that just sounds totally out of whack! So, what are the latest news in sizes? Can someone make a simple size-list in sqaure miles and square kilometers from 1 to 10 or so for us simpletons so we don't have to dig the entire thread? ^^

Yep, I try to, so if you have any more info please let me know (I need to update the OP with Gyrus' latest info though)

 

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/08/11 7:42:42 AM#159
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Originally posted by Elikal

Maverik, do you update the 1st post to the always most recent conclusions?

 

Well, dagnabit... but some people telling me here LOTRO is 300 times as big as WOW? NO WAY! I mean, hell, I am no WOW defender, really, and I loved LOTRO waaay more... but 300 times... that just CAN'T be right! I mean, 3 or 4 times or even 10 times... but that... that just sounds totally out of whack! So, what are the latest news in sizes? Can someone make a simple size-list in sqaure miles and square kilometers from 1 to 10 or so for us simpletons so we don't have to dig the entire thread? ^^

Yep, I try to, so if you have any more info please let me know (I need to update the OP with Gyrus' latest info though)

 

Ha, nah I have no idea of such things. ^^

Cool stuff. Since I am an explorer type more than anything else, it is of interest to me. I also love big worlds in single player RPGs. It's why I love Bethesda over Bioware, even tho I LOVE story, I love exploration more. And game never can be too big for me. :)

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

 
OP  4/08/11 7:53:49 AM#160
Originally posted by Elikal

Cool stuff. Since I am an explorer type more than anything else, it is of interest to me. I also love big worlds in single player RPGs. It's why I love Bethesda over Bioware, even tho I LOVE story, I love exploration more. And game never can be too big for me. :)

I think you'll find that SWTOR will be able to satisfy that explorer's need, so far it looks like SWTOR will be almost 3 times as large as WoW vanilla in total size of explorable landmass. And there's all kinds of neat hard-to-reach secret places hidden around on the Planets.

It's one of the things that I like what I heard so far from SWTOR, that it'll satisfy the MMO explorer in me

 

GW2 so far looks like it'll be 1.3-1.5 times the size of WoW vanilla, with the advantage though of Tyria being one contiguous landmass with underwater exploration to be done as well.

 

TERA I haven't found out yet, some say it's pretty large but I couldn't find any estimations regarding size.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

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