Found an article posted on another forum thought id share

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.234661-Kids-Cant-Handle-Old-School-RPGs-Anymore

Lol wow. I spent months in my formative years on that game. I remember getting it for christmas for my Sega master system. Reading the manuel over breakfast and that game beeing pretty much all I thought about for how ever long it took me to beat it....well apart from boobs and cheese.  So I find this a very disheartning to read.

I think the problem in lies that they were expecting the instructions, backstory the whole shebang to be in the actual game. Not in a booklet.  Generally booklets are seen as tutorial helpers.  Such as Push up to go forward and These are what these tiems look like.  Rarely do you read an instruction booklet to a game if you already know basically how everything works (game controls don't usually differ that much from one another)

So they dove head first into the game and using what they know today started to look around and talk to people.  The problem is the game is designed to be used in conjunction with the manual (something that doesn't happen in modern games) and seeing as they didn't use that.  They got lost.

I don't think it's so much as they can't handle it.  But more so they didn't understand it.  They expected one thing and got another.  Now if they had been told that the booklet was useful and you should read it.  They might have picked the booklet up first read it and went with it.  As they were not. they discarded the booklet as a mere instruction booklet instead of a guide to the game.

Originally posted by whilan

I think the problem in lies that they were expecting the instructions, backstory the whole shebang to be in the actual game. Not in a booklet.  Generally booklets are seen as tutorial helpers.  Such as Push up to go forward and These are what these tiems look like.  Rarely do you read an instruction booklet to a game if you already know basically how everything works (game controls don't usually differ that much from one another)

So they dove head first into the game and using what they know today started to look around and talk to people.  The problem is the game is designed to be used in conjunction with the manual (something that doesn't happen in modern games) and seeing as they didn't use that.  They got lost.

I don't think it's so much as they can't handle it.  But more so they didn't understand it.  They expected one thing and got another.  Now if they had been told that the booklet was useful and you should read it.  They might have picked the booklet up first read it and went with it.  As they were not. they discarded the booklet as a mere instruction booklet instead of a guide to the game.

Yeah it's part of the evolution of games that developers have started putting the game into the actual game (instead of the instruction booklet.)

Personally I played a ton of Ultima 3 (and Sword of Fargoal, the first two RPGs I put a lot of time into.)  It was great fun for its time, but the genre's come a loooong way since then (not unlike the MMORPG genre which I couldn't stand in its infancy.)

Ok.. So I'm 15.... I have played and enjoyed 1st gen D&D and love MUDs I am fine with old school graphics.... Hell I run  a pen and paper RPG club at my school... I am such a nerd nerds shun me as a nerd.... I can however play just about any game there is if you give me an english manual for it.. Thats all I have to say...

I'm an old school PnP gamer, and I still (almost) read always read the manual.

Mainly because I play games like Hearts of Iron 3, Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin, Europa Universalis, Chess

You know the games that would give your average Halo player an nose bleed from their brain hemorrhaging, because they'd actually have to think to play the game.

*psst*

And I never like the Ultima series.

Now I dont think of myself like some gaming god, or that Im just more evolved than the average gamer now-a-days.

But the simple truth is I am suffering from lack of depth and complexity in my gaming because game developers have had to dumb things down...no matter what you believe; it is the truth.

Eight years ago when I started playing EVE, I really couldnt have imagined that we'd be where we are in MMO gaming today (and that statement has more than one meaning).

The depth and diversity and vastness and the graphics (at its time it blew everyone out of the fucking ball park) and the idea of one shared world that EVE brought to the MMO gaming table...was just mindblowing (and still is, sadly).

If you would have asked me eight years ago what would MMO gaming be like today, after EVE had recast the mold...Well its sure wouldnt be what we have today.

I imagined something like WoW's large open world but with depth, a world that evolved to you, and around you. A level of interactivity with the enviroment that would pull you in and made you forget it was a game (that is now unfortunately a dream).

Instead, eight years after EVE revolutionized MMOs we got...DCUO, nothing more than a glorified single player console game with a monthly subscription. With less choices than COH, a MMO that launched four (thats FOUR) years ago.

Now all you generation-Zs(?) can point your fingers at me and claim- "I just dont get it" , but the truth is- "I get it, I just dont like it."

The sad fact is we're all suffering because game developers have to cater to a target audience that complexity and depth and...thought, is just too much of an effort.

Although Rift is fun and TOR is catching my eye, my true hope is CCP's WoD mmo.

CCPs target audience has never been the 14-16 year olds. And honestly no reason for me to think that they would change that with World of Darkness. They expect you to be able to think, and you know what? I like it.

So to sum up, I completly agree with that Escapist article. I just made it more relevant to MMO's since this is an MMO disscusion.

I have been playing video games since the 80s and I rarely read the manuals before playing a game.  Back then manuals were just an annoying form of copy protection.  Teh good games were intuitive enough that you did not need a manual.  If you were passionate abotu a game you went out and bought a stategy guide so you could learn the tricks that were never in the manual.

Heck, if I was a student in a class like that, I would not read the manual first becasue I would have thought that I was not supposed to as part of the exercise. 

OK...I hope that age group wasn't set at me because I really enjoy Eve and I love the World of Darkness universe..... That is what I'm currently running... I've noticed that much of the severe dumbing down in games comes from guess where?? That good ole US of A..... BTW I'm Canadian..... (Although a fair bit is also European, I haven't noticed too much in Japanese gaming).... See I HATE 4E D&D because it is so dumbed down as well as most modern MMO's they all future "easy to use and easy to get into" interfaces, all I to that is  screw you simplicity, complexity and a difficult but adaptive system is in truth one of the greatest parts of a game be it MMO or otherwise.... Overall I am not surprised being an uber-nerd and 3 year running as part of my JH science Olympics team(A science competition in Alberta) I know that I easily slide as an exception to that do to the unknown variables there and really... Most of my School of 800 students has never heard of D&D or any other Pan and Papers...( I only believe there are about 8 students who had, 6 of which are now in my P&P club).... I am overall an avid gamer, I get that from my father who has been on computers since early youth.... He Beta-tested Meridian 59... And he played MUDs through a fair bit of his teens so....Please don't use incomplete geographics like that.... The aging is 12-16 there I believe....

I know way more adults who can't handle old skool games then kids so your comepletely wrong about that OP.

Some games may be dumbed down, although that is definately a point could be successfully disputed, however your the first person I've heard complain about modern UI's.   The UI should be simple, it should be straight forward and easily adaptable.  Give me siimple uncomplicated UI over needlessly complicated ones anyway, the UI doens't make the game harder it just makes it irritating.

Venge Sunsoar

It's not just game, it's the whole internet era.   All these kids born in the 90's never lived in world without internet or cell phone.  How do you expect them to understand games that were made when DOS was the operating system.

Just tell me what this is.

If your 20 years old or less it's normal not to know.

Originally posted by Evasia

I know way more adults who can't handle old skool games then kids so your comepletely wrong about that OP.

This. I find it hard to believe that the kids didn't read the manual, I can't imagine any of my cousins not at least look over the manual (except the 2 year old, but that doesn't count). I can imagine them having a hard time without the manuel, but not after reading. I think people discredit the kids of today way too much...

You know, in ancient Egypt. One of the hieroglyphics on the walls of the pyramids actually says 'I am upset as my heir will ruin my kingdom' or something to that affect.

This is 5000BC stuff and you know what? Nothing has changed. :P

JPNZ I think I will use that as my new sig :)

Venge

edit:  I have to hand it to you and axehilt - just when I'm about to start a rant over the intolerance on these boards (Yes I am aware of the irony in that), you and Axehilt post something that makes me laugh and realize who cares about all the garbage people post :)

Originally posted by MimiEZ

Originally posted by Evasia

I know way more adults who can't handle old skool games then kids so your comepletely wrong about that OP.

This. I find it hard to believe that the kids didn't read the manual, I can't imagine any of my cousins not at least look over the manual (except the 2 year old, but that doesn't count). I can imagine them having a hard time without the manuel, but not after reading. I think people discredit the kids of today way too much...

Then your cousins are exceptions... I've SEEN people, not just youths, throw out their paperwork before leaving a store.  I've worked in technical support for internet services and computer companies since 97, and a LOT of adults fail to read the things they are supposed.... I have to say a LOT of the people I have seen on this site have been exceptions... 

I had an employer once, that would tell new employees, "Take the stupidest person you know, and realize that three forths the population is dumber than them."

Most people have one unique talent: They fail to read; anything, at all. Having spoken to someone who wanted to know how to install AOL on their Playstation, I don't find this that hard to believe at all.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

JPNZ I think I will use that as my new sig :)

Venge

edit:  I have to hand it to you and axehilt - just when I'm about to start a rant over the intolerance on these boards (Yes I am aware of the irony in that), you and Axehilt post something that makes me laugh and realize who cares about all the garbage people post :)

 /flex! :D

As someone who grew up in the 90s, it sucked. I'd rather have Google/Wikipedia than Alta-vista/Excite/Yahoo/Encarta95. :P

Games aren't as hard as they used to be, that one can't really be disputed.

I remember being disappointed when the first "arrows" started popping up in games - now they're basically required in every game. Every game is basically "follow the arrow" and kill stuff along the way.

That said, there are still great games being made. Just wish there was more innovation going on ( especially in MMORPGs ... the worst genre of games in terms of innovation).

My first RPG was The Bard's Tale (1985)  from interplay for commodore 64 and  later played Wasteland ( wich is the game Fallout was based on) .

You had to read the manual in both games if you wanted to get anything accomplished, from spell lists to skills everything was in the book. and no internet  to search for any of that stuff, guides,walkthroughs.

You had to really figure everything out on your own!

This is the reason I love MMORPG's, becasue of the leaps in Tech advances gaming has accomplished since I first started playing these computer RPG's.

Games expecting/requiring the print instructions to be read were also a by-product of an era where space was a hot commodity. 1985 is also the era where a 10MB hard-drive cost 3500 dollars.

http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/127

Also, those print manuals were used as a form of copy-protection. Who still has an old game box with a decoder strip/wheel/keybook in it, or "fondly" remember turning to Page X, Paragraph Y, Line Z, Word is Archaic.

Nowadays, capacity isn't really an issue. 500GB drives are 40bucks, and we've got huge multi-core proliferation through the market with still terribly multi-core support, with tons of room to grow still.

If you can convey everything you need to without concerns of size limitations all within the game, then why not? Of course games these days have shaken out the notion of always reading the instruction manual before you play. The companies have figured out how to just convey the same information in-game, without killing a tree.

All the world-story stuff can be either explained in-game, or provided as collectors items in the CE in print form. As much as they build the character of the world the game lives in, they're ancillary to the overall objective to todays gamer: Play the Game. Reading/dechiphering the instructions takes the player away from the game.

Originally posted by Haegemon

Games expecting/requiring the print instructions to be read were also a by-product of an era where space was a hot commodity. 1985 is also the era where a 10MB hard-drive cost 3500 dollars.

http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/127

 

Also, those print manuals were used as a form of copy-protection. Who still has an old game box with a decoder strip/wheel/keybook in it, or "fondly" remember turning to Page X, Paragraph Y, Line Z, Word is Archaic.

 

Nowadays, capacity isn't really an issue. 500GB drives are 40bucks, and we've got huge multi-core proliferation through the market with still terribly multi-core support, with tons of room to grow still.

 

If you can convey everything you need to without concerns of size limitations all within the game, then why not? Of course games these days have shaken out the notion of always reading the instruction manual before you play. The companies have figured out how to just convey the same information in-game, without killing a tree.

All the world-story stuff can be either explained in-game, or provided as collectors items in the CE in print form. As much as they build the character of the world the game lives in, they're ancillary to the overall objective to todays gamer: Play the Game. Reading/dechiphering the instructions takes the player away from the game.

You know, I still have my manual to the 'Betrayer at Krondor'. Want to know why? Cause you needed to open these chests in the game that unlocks by answering a riddle.

The manual had the riddle and the answer. The good thing is that the answer actually made sense (in a riddle kind of way)!

So I used to say a few of those. :D