Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vahrane

     Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here about the state of WoW's questing post Cata. Recently I was over at a buddies place whom still plays WoW and has since vanilla. I was watching him take his Goblin shaman (formerly Tauren shaman but what won't Blizzard do for more money) through the under water "seahorse capturing" zone Axehilt mentioned very briefly in his homage to WoW's uber questing. Now I will admit I didn't see him capture the sea horse but, ( and I will be sure to ask how exciting it was later)  what I did see was more of the same Kill this # of crabs/fishmen/turtles/anything else down there as well as the typical delivery quests or go find what's his face! At one point he did become a fishman and was given three buttons to spam while swimming around slaughtering even more fishmen (Joy!!). Please explain what I missed about this great expansion that has shifted the very foundations of WoW?

 

PS - The Day Deathwing Came - Lvl 40ish quest was actually fairly entertaining although incredibly easy!

Well it's easy to criticize WOW quests in isolation, but until you mention a game with superior solo PVE that criticism doesn't really mean much.

     You're right and the easiest answer I can give you is original EQ! I had to actually think to PvE in that game be it knowing about the opponent I intended to engage from conversation with fellow adventurers or trial and error ><. Hell with a caster you practically had to know how many spells you could get off with a full mana bar as well as from the mana you would be regaining from your buffs/gear during the fight. You were limited to 8 spells available at any one time as well though if quick could drop and memorize new spells mid combat with roots/snares/stuns/mezmerize. WoW has practically been watered down EQ from day one yet continues to get worse yet somehow keep people clamoring for more! 

    It's hard to really compare original EQ quests and WoW quests.  Of course EQ had some few simple collection quests for newbies as well as a plethora of far from simple collections requiring the player traverse the world turning over near every rock, stone, and bush also following up any in game rumors that even seemed plausible. The majority of EQ's quest were fairly epic in scale and the only remotely similar WoW quest, that I personally have done, would be the old hunter epic Rhok'Delar and even that pales in comparison to the EQ class epics or even the Coldain Prayer Shawl! 

     The one really awesome thing WoW did have was the opening of AQ 40 on the servers through the Gares of Ahn'Qiraj event and the creation of the Scarab Lord title. Which could be compared to the basically player created event of 3 guilds teaming up (Ascending Dawn, Wudan, and Magus Imperialis Magicus) to kill him because no one had been able to! You can read more about that here if you would like > http://wikibin.org/articles/kerafyrm.html.

     Perhaps also of some interest to you is a small write up done by someone with similar concerns as my own about the current state of MMO gaming and what the overly simplified questing is doing to the state of games today. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/29399.aspx

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vahrane

     Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here about the state of WoW's questing post Cata. Recently I was over at a buddies place whom still plays WoW and has since vanilla. I was watching him take his Goblin shaman (formerly Tauren shaman but what won't Blizzard do for more money) through the under water "seahorse capturing" zone Axehilt mentioned very briefly in his homage to WoW's uber questing. Now I will admit I didn't see him capture the sea horse but, ( and I will be sure to ask how exciting it was later)  what I did see was more of the same Kill this # of crabs/fishmen/turtles/anything else down there as well as the typical delivery quests or go find what's his face! At one point he did become a fishman and was given three buttons to spam while swimming around slaughtering even more fishmen (Joy!!). Please explain what I missed about this great expansion that has shifted the very foundations of WoW?

 

PS - The Day Deathwing Came - Lvl 40ish quest was actually fairly entertaining although incredibly easy!

Well it's easy to criticize WOW quests in isolation, but until you mention a game with superior solo PVE that criticism doesn't really mean much.

     You're right and the easiest answer I can give you is original EQ! I had to actually think to PvE in that game be it knowing about the opponent I intended to engage from conversation with fellow adventurers or trial and error ><. Hell with a caster you practically had to know how many spells you could get off with a full mana bar as well as from the mana you would be regaining from your buffs/gear during the fight. You were limited to 8 spells available at any one time as well though if quick could drop and memorize new spells mid combat with roots/snares/stuns/mezmerize. WoW has practically been watered down EQ from day one yet continues to get worse yet somehow keep people clamoring for more! 

    It's hard to really compare original EQ quests and WoW quests.  Of course EQ had some few simple collection quests for newbies as well as a plethora of far from simple collections requiring the player traverse the world turning over near every rock, stone, and bush also following up any in game rumors that even seemed plausible. The majority of EQ's quest were fairly epic in scale and the only remotely similar WoW quest, that I personally have done, would be the old hunter epic Rhok'Delar and even that pales in comparison to the EQ class epics or even the Coldain Prayer Shawl! 

     The one really awesome thing WoW did have was the opening of AQ 40 on the servers through the Gares of Ahn'Qiraj event and the creation of the Scarab Lord title. Which could be compared to the basically player created event of 3 guilds teaming up (Ascending Dawn, Wudan, and Magus Imperialis Magicus) to kill him because no one had been able to! You can read more about that here if you would like > http://wikibin.org/articles/kerafyrm.html.

     Perhaps also of some interest to you is a small write up done by someone with similar concerns as my own about the current state of MMO gaming and what the overly simplified questing is doing to the state of games today. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/29399.aspx

The part I think you neglected to mention was that he specifically said "solo PvE" which EQ1 didn't emphasize until much later on (mostly post-WoW). You two are talking about quests on two completely different levels.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by Vahrane

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Vahrane

     Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents here about the state of WoW's questing post Cata. Recently I was over at a buddies place whom still plays WoW and has since vanilla. I was watching him take his Goblin shaman (formerly Tauren shaman but what won't Blizzard do for more money) through the under water "seahorse capturing" zone Axehilt mentioned very briefly in his homage to WoW's uber questing. Now I will admit I didn't see him capture the sea horse but, ( and I will be sure to ask how exciting it was later)  what I did see was more of the same Kill this # of crabs/fishmen/turtles/anything else down there as well as the typical delivery quests or go find what's his face! At one point he did become a fishman and was given three buttons to spam while swimming around slaughtering even more fishmen (Joy!!). Please explain what I missed about this great expansion that has shifted the very foundations of WoW?

 

PS - The Day Deathwing Came - Lvl 40ish quest was actually fairly entertaining although incredibly easy!

Well it's easy to criticize WOW quests in isolation, but until you mention a game with superior solo PVE that criticism doesn't really mean much.

     You're right and the easiest answer I can give you is original EQ! I had to actually think to PvE in that game be it knowing about the opponent I intended to engage from conversation with fellow adventurers or trial and error ><. Hell with a caster you practically had to know how many spells you could get off with a full mana bar as well as from the mana you would be regaining from your buffs/gear during the fight. You were limited to 8 spells available at any one time as well though if quick could drop and memorize new spells mid combat with roots/snares/stuns/mezmerize. WoW has practically been watered down EQ from day one yet continues to get worse yet somehow keep people clamoring for more! 

    It's hard to really compare original EQ quests and WoW quests.  Of course EQ had some few simple collection quests for newbies as well as a plethora of far from simple collections requiring the player traverse the world turning over near every rock, stone, and bush also following up any in game rumors that even seemed plausible. The majority of EQ's quest were fairly epic in scale and the only remotely similar WoW quest, that I personally have done, would be the old hunter epic Rhok'Delar and even that pales in comparison to the EQ class epics or even the Coldain Prayer Shawl! 

     The one really awesome thing WoW did have was the opening of AQ 40 on the servers through the Gares of Ahn'Qiraj event and the creation of the Scarab Lord title. Which could be compared to the basically player created event of 3 guilds teaming up (Ascending Dawn, Wudan, and Magus Imperialis Magicus) to kill him because no one had been able to! You can read more about that here if you would like > http://wikibin.org/articles/kerafyrm.html.

     Perhaps also of some interest to you is a small write up done by someone with similar concerns as my own about the current state of MMO gaming and what the overly simplified questing is doing to the state of games today. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/29399.aspx

The part I think you neglected to mention was that he specifically said "solo PvE" which EQ1 didn't emphasize until much later on (mostly post-WoW). You two are talking about quests on two completely different levels.

        I soloed a large part of my enchanter's epic and my Coldain Prayer Shawl (which was fairly nice even unfinished) so yes I am talking about solo content. As another example of fairly awesome solo content that could, if you took it that far, progress to group content would be the Iksar Monk shackle line of quests ending in the Shackle of Tynnonium. Even the solo parts of the quests were much more fulfilling than most anything WoW offered except the couple things I mentioned above! Also the WoW Hunter epic was strictly solo (besides a nature resist buff for one fight)!

Originally posted by Leucent

My wife and I are sitting here thinking about what game to play, why because every game levels too damn fast now. We miss the FFXI days, or DAOC in it s early days. I had a real connection with my chars in those games and really miss the communities that came with most of those games. We recently tried Aion, only to leave for Cata:( We ve decided to go back to Aion because it takes time and some challenge to progress. This is coming from 2 of the more casual players you ll meet. So to sum it up, I hope more games will come out in the future where I don t get 4-5 levels in a day, doing next to nothing:)

I think we all enjoy the game leveling slow and taking time for the most part, or at least some of us. I think the problem comes from some of us who don't join the game at the start date and feel soooo far behind. In a perfect world if we all started the game at the same time and it took forever to level that would be sweet. 

All too often we rush through good content to get to end game to realize we didnt stop to enjoy it.

Originally posted by pauly6478

Originally posted by Leucent

My wife and I are sitting here thinking about what game to play, why because every game levels too damn fast now. We miss the FFXI days, or DAOC in it s early days. I had a real connection with my chars in those games and really miss the communities that came with most of those games. We recently tried Aion, only to leave for Cata:( We ve decided to go back to Aion because it takes time and some challenge to progress. This is coming from 2 of the more casual players you ll meet. So to sum it up, I hope more games will come out in the future where I don t get 4-5 levels in a day, doing next to nothing:)

I think we all enjoy the game leveling slow and taking time for the most part, or at least some of us. I think the problem comes from some of us who don't join the game at the start date and feel soooo far behind. In a perfect world if we all started the game at the same time and it took forever to level that would be sweet. 

 

All too often we rush through good content to get to end game to realize we didnt stop to enjoy it.

I agree that many players are pressured to rush to endgame where supposedly all the "good stuff" is. As far as the rest of the post so long as there is some sort of mentoring mechanic in the game I can't ever really see there being a "left behind" issue.

Thinking about all the games I have played and really end game really is a dissapointment compared to getting to endgame.

I also miss in games today the going out and soloing a mob that spawns maybe once every 12 hours and hoping that a rare drop will come from it. AO did that really well. There was something to do when you got bored and you had fun pushing your character to see what you could solo that would normally take groups time to do.

I couldn't care how fast I level in an MMORPG.  MMO's were not supposed to be about spending your precious life on grinding for a day and a half to  go up one level. 

When I look at an MMORPG I am looking for an epic storyline. Most players of MMO's play their game and don't even know why they are fighting something or what the story is at all and it makes me sad.  To this day I have played WoW a few times and I still do not know any lore. In most MMO's now you are just thrown in a world where a single NPC is next to you that starts you off on a quest that tells you to kill X number of enemies with no explanation of the big scope or picture. 

Lotro is easy since there are movies to tell you whats going on (trilogy).  No other MMO's have that. Guild Wars (though not really an MMO but a great RPG) does not have a level cap of 80. But I can say that most people who have played and finished any of the campaign know a good bit of the story.  Plus you can get to level 20 in a day. Leveling did not matter in Guild Wars , it was based on lore and skill of using your build.

MMO's have really lost the RPG part.  Its all about making a toon/char and grinding, getting elite gear, and then pummeling another person to death just because he/she has not spent as many virginising hours  as you have.  But wait here, some people do get laid and play the grindfest, well thats just beacuse whores are easy. 

It just pains me to think that the masses think MMO's are just about leveling when there is more to it than that.  Its probably why WoW is so popular because it is so easy to do that.  Sure you have your super nerds who stopped to read that long text box but seriously that virgin label is on your forehead. An MMO should throw the story right in your face and not leave you alone about it. 

        ^^  As far as Lord of the Rings is concerned there are these things called books that so many people forgot about once the things you mentioned called movies came into the mainstream.

People who take their time leveling up often say they are simply "enjoying the ride," but I tend to see a big issue with leveling in games that have a top heavy population in that it's tough for me to enjoy the ride when I'm the only one in the car.

Both in EQ2 and World of Warcraft you can level with experience turned off whenever you like.

Problem solved.

You can play with XP turned of in Lotro too, but I don't think this solves the problem. FFIV tried some innovative time management to make a better leveling curve, but I have no idea how that worked out, could anyone tell us?

This is one of those squared circle problems which will never get solved but maybe could be balanced better than most MMO's do currently.

Originally posted by pauly6478

Thinking about all the games I have played and really end game really is a dissapointment compared to getting to endgame.

Agreed, in fact I've never found a game with what I found to be a satisfying endgame since I started playing in '99. Now, I'll give it a chance in whatever game I play but find that if I don't plan to roll an alt once I hit the level cap it's time to move to another game.

we just need to wait for Daoc 2   atm Rift seams to be the game im heading for , looks alittle like Daoc

[object Window]

the xp in Rift nobuddy know about atm  because its only in Beta stage so alot can change the right way

Originally posted by Scot

You can play with XP turned of in Lotro too, but I don't think this solves the problem. FFIV tried some innovative time management to make a better leveling curve, but I have no idea how that worked out, could anyone tell us?

This is one of those squared circle problems which will never get solved but maybe could be balanced better than most MMO's do currently.

Right now I FFXIV SP (Um like exp but for classes) is messed up si its a lil hard ot explain but I will give it a shot. When the game started theire was a XP management system called fatigue. Basically after a certain amount of XP you hit a wall  that gradaully lowers the amount of SP you get from 90% to 0%. It still exist but atm SP has been changed in a way as before you earned a random amount based on Damage Healing Buffing and Debuffing while in combat. IF you gained SP from one of those thing basically effectiveness dictated how much you got. ATM sp is standardized but there is minimal reward for fighting higher level mobs in a party. They have a quest system (Leves) which can provide boosted SP gains while under a buff. You cna recieve up to 8 of them but they are on a 36 hour cooldown. But you can share these quest with others with out them having it. Long story short its mostly a failure in regards to management.

My own point is that maybe they should just not place limits on leveling and work on content that motivates you even if there isnt a specific max level. Half the time in MMOs a major complaint is end game content where in which they just eventually up the level limit. Could it be possible to just do away with level limits and just focus on content and goal/gear achievements for players?

Originally posted by Rydeson

     So how much of a challenge is leveling in WoW when there are 4 of you grouped up?.. Does the 4 person actually get a chance to HIT the mob before it's dead?  Then these questlines I keep hearing about and phasing.. What if ya'll don't always play together at the same time.. Are there problems in grouping?  Really..  on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being horrible) how group friendly and "CHALLENGING" is WoW in leveling 1-80?.. 

With 4 people, you wouldn't quest.  You'd dungeon crawl.  At that point, the tank controls the rate of mob pulling (and thus the challenge -- and also the rate of advancement.) 

So it's relatively dynamic.  If you want more challenge, you pull more/faster, and you get more XP/loot faster.  You get exactly as much challenge as the group wants (or is capable of.)

I suppose I'd give it a 6 (2 points deducted for no difficulty options (heroics) while leveling; 2 points deducted for no sidekick system so that friends can still group when there's a 4+ level difference.)

One more that's sick of fast leveling in most MMOs. Good thing EQ/EQ2 has the AA thing, but most other games just don't allow you to change the leveling speed. I was very surprised when I found the following skill in Vanguard:

Think I'll use it quite often ;-)

That is classic Vanguard. :)

One thing I noticed in DDO you have this reincarnation thing where you kill of your old top level charecter and can then create a new level one avatar with a past life of class X. You get a small bonus to hit or whatever and can then start the game all over again. I thought this was a rather cheeky way to handle end game. Though they have rading of course.

For me good PvP is the best way to handle end game, RvR being the ideal way to motivate even those who dont like pvp to giving it a go.

Absolute opposite to the OP: I hate levelling with a passion. The quicker and easier it is to get to the endgame the better.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Rydeson

     So how much of a challenge is leveling in WoW when there are 4 of you grouped up?.. Does the 4 person actually get a chance to HIT the mob before it's dead?  Then these questlines I keep hearing about and phasing.. What if ya'll don't always play together at the same time.. Are there problems in grouping?  Really..  on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being horrible) how group friendly and "CHALLENGING" is WoW in leveling 1-80?.. 

With 4 people, you wouldn't quest.  You'd dungeon crawl.  At that point, the tank controls the rate of mob pulling (and thus the challenge -- and also the rate of advancement.) 

So it's relatively dynamic.  If you want more challenge, you pull more/faster, and you get more XP/loot faster.  You get exactly as much challenge as the group wants (or is capable of.)

I suppose I'd give it a 6 (2 points deducted for no difficulty options (heroics) while leveling; 2 points deducted for no sidekick system so that friends can still group when there's a 4+ level difference.)

    So you repeat the same dungeon over and over, until the next one opens up?  So basically, you're saying is that if you choose to be a group player from 1-60, only 15% of the game applies to you?  This also means you are stuck on the "loot" drop table for that dungeon so your character is actually gimping himself, and you sacrifice any ability to harvest mats for crafting for the most part.. I would think a 4 rating would be more accurate..

Originally posted by Rydeson

    So you repeat the same dungeon over and over, until the next one opens up?  So basically, you're saying is that if you choose to be a group player from 1-60, only 15% of the game applies to you?  This also means you are stuck on the "loot" drop table for that dungeon so your character is actually gimping himself, and you sacrifice any ability to harvest mats for crafting for the most part.. I would think a 4 rating would be more accurate..

Dungeon loot is better than quest loot, and any green drops you get in the dungeon you can wear as well. So, no, you don't gimp yourself.

A lot of dungeons have mats in them, and a fair few mobs can be harvested (skinning obviously, some elementals for mining and herbalism.) So, yeah, no.