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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Crowd Control? A thing of the past?

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45 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/30/10 11:52:58 AM#41
Originally posted by swing848


Originally posted by brostyn

Originally posted by ajrock622

I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

My first post dissappeared.

Both of you are wrong on this one.

This example regards mobs. PvP requires different strategy because individual players may break mez soon and or call for help [depending upon the game]. DAOC is famous for this. Group stranded and in need of help? Call the rest of the battlegroup to help you. Just an example.

OK, back to mobs.

In games that use CC, tanks are required to keep agro [and deal damage] while the healer keeps the tank alive, and at the same time the caster burns the mob to the ground.

In addition, if a lot of high level mobs decide to join the fight the tank will probably not be able to get agro on all of the mobs, because after too much healing the mobs go after the healer[s] and kill them. Healers dead.

Next in line are the primary damage dealers, cloth wearers that do lots of damage but can't take much. Now the squishies are dead. This leaves the tank. With so many mobs hitting him he will probably die, and if not, the rest of the group is already dead. The group will need someone to res them. If the tank can res, fine. They can do the same thing again and end up dead again.

So, tanks have a purpose, protect the squishies and healers, cloth wearing damage dealers and cloth wearing CC classes survive ... because of the CC character.

Now, if you are whining about a solo CC character going against a single mob, you must remember that most CC classes are very good at CC and not the best at killing. So, the guy casts on the mob [or uses a pet as well]. In that case if the mob goes after the guy he or she will have to ... kite ...

Kite, yes everyone loves to do that, just run for your life and hope the mob does not catch up with you. And, the mob does not because you use CC to stop the mob, get more distance again and finish killing the mob.

How does this CC type class differ from a pure DPS caster? Depending upon the game, the DPS class may have to kite until he is high enough in some skill to burn a single mob to the ground.

How does this CC type differ from a tank? If the tank has the ability to pull a single mob from a group, then all he needs to do is tank and kill the single mob.

Now, put a lone tank in an instance against high level mobs that love to agro in large groups. The tank will die.

Put a lone DPS caster in an instanstance against high level mobs that love to agro in large groups. The caster will die.

Now do you get the picture? The game mechanics require people to work together to accomplish a mission.

This is CC 101.

And, in a large and hectic fight the guy responsible for CC is just as important as the tank. someone has to keep the healer alive and help keep the tank alive. Too many heals and the healer pulls agro. With 6 mobs headed for the healer someone has to keep him alive and that is called CC. Also, there will be times that the timer will finish and there are lots of mobs still alive, dead tank unless someone is there to re-mez. So the the CC guy can't simply mez once and go back to watching Bay Watch or whatever.

By the way, this system is supposed to create community by requiring people to work together and that should evolve into talking to eachother, people learn about other people and they want to game together. This is where I have something against WoW, there are raiding guilds that will not let you in their guild because your gear is not good enough. Pathetic. And, this is Blizzard's fault in large part. It is also the players fault because they are too stuck up and look down their noses at those that have lesser gear. They are too lazy to take a little time to help someone else along, all they care about is what they want. Get away from me, you can't play in my sandbox! Sometimes 6 year old kids are more grown up.

Please help me understand what you were trying to get across here. All I'm taking from this is that you think in a games with CC there are classes with different jobs and they all have to do their job for the group to win. I don't see in this post where you make a point to disprove that using CC in PvE to prevent group mates classes weren't designed to take hits from mobs, which in my opinion becomes strategic therefore making it not "dumbed down." Although the forms of CC have may have been "dumbed down." 


I certainly am not going to argue that you have to have roles set by classes in a game (Tank, Healer, DPS, CC). However the conversation was about using CC (mezz, specific in this case) was strategic and not just a mindless task preformed by the player to ensue a group win.


You are right about one thing to an extent. Having defined class roles is supposed to promote grouping which in turn promotes interaction between people who are of the same faction. This creates community. Games like WoW where Gearscore is implemented (player or developer) does nothing to help the community. It tends to increase the elitist cliche which while funny at times is usually nothing more than a giant pile of giant douchebagery. Frankly, if I am raiding I always look at player skill before gear. Does it help to have a 6.5 GS sure but as anyone who has played WoW recently knows it never means they have 6.5k of what ever you want to deem units of skill. People in WoW far to often forget this. I can't tell you how many good players I've found by giving them a chance to prove themselves in situations where average players with good gear will act exactly like an average player with good gear. It's the great players with quick reactions and thinking that shine in those situations that I want by my side slaying intraweb dragons. On the flip side I can't tell you how many bads I've found in elite gear who were so terrible I just either spammed the kick button until the timer reset or trolled them until they left. It boils down to skill and enjoyment of playing with you as a player for me. I don't care what you are wearing unless you are a lady in which case it better be nothing.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  User Deleted
12/04/10 2:41:12 AM#42

 OP; ever played World of Warcraft? Blizzard, the producers, have (afaik) stated they would reduce(remove?) CC's, still they give more and more CC to many classes. *cough cough* mages *cough cough*. Anarchy Online still have (afaik) just as much CC as ever before. People can be rooted for a LOOOOOONG time there, as there is no "diminishing returns" effect.

 I don't think CC is about to be gone for many years yet. I can agree I see it is being reduced, and I would welcome a complete removal of CC*s, but I think it will always be a part of MMO's.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/10
Posts: 1

12/05/10 8:50:35 PM#43

i'm happy to be here

  User Deleted
12/08/10 3:12:30 PM#44

I played an Enchanter in EQ1.  I think you could keep 5 or 6 mobs mobs locked down at a time with a mez rotation, backed up by your AOE stuns.  It was a challenging class because that's just the way pulls were.  DPS assisted the tank, you had to take care of everything else.  The downside of that was that every group basically needed an enchanter (until they started doing things like monk unresistable pacifications).  I don't really ever want to see a game like that again, where one class was so dominant in that role and so necessary due to the nature of the pulls that you absolutely needed one in every group.

While I like the idea of giving basically every class a single crowd control method, like WoW, forcing everybody to get involved, even that seems pretty ezmode.  Mage sheep that guy, priest shackle that guy, druid sleep that animal and you're done, especially when the CC lasts a good amount of time (30 seconds or more), and has a shorter cooldown, letting you refresh it at will. 

I like the idea of skillful crowd control.  Say what you want about WoW's hunters being morons for the most part, but you can tell when one of them knows what they're doing with the traps.  The Warlock succubus was another one that you could use to great effect, but relied on the survival of your pet which could EASILY be one shotted.  Or Fear.  Always fun and exciting.

I think a good solution (or the start of one) is to focus on short term effects, as well as ones that don't just completely lock enemies down.  A root or a snare can effectively be a mez, but they require more positioning and coordination than just pushing a button and having a sheep wander around in the middle of mobs are being tanked.  Or a knockback or a knockdown that works just long enough to keep your squishies from being attacked, letting the tank get control back.

TL:DR  I think CC abilities are important to have, but generally the worse they are, the better you have to be to use them to full effectiveness.  And I'm always in favor of games where you can really tell the goods from the bads.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1135

Freeloading mooches are the scourge of the gaming community.

12/08/10 3:30:25 PM#45


In most games being developed nowadays, mobs are clustered in a VERY organized structure. Few mobs roam large expanses, indoors or out. Also in dugeons instances players move from place to place instead of camping and relying on a puller to pull to the group requiring the puller to pull further and further away from the group in the process which included more risk that on his way back or out the puller would aggro more mobs than intended.

In games now, players instead move forward going for an objective in a simple and safe orderly fashion. Once the players learn the patterns of an instance or area, it pretty much will always be that way. This is one of the reasons that when players enter an instance for the first time as a group of friends it is much harder as they have to learn the very simplistic and small areas that patrols do roam.

There are 2 more recent Post WOW games that have actually done Crowd control some justice..Those 2 would be Vanguard Saga of Heroes and Aion..The Psioncist from Vanguard was excellent at Crowd control at higher levels. Aion plays like a hybrid inmho to WOW and EQ1...

You could throw EQ2 in there as well I didnt play high enough in EQ2 as i didnt care for it which sucks. Because I loved EQ1 and to this day is still probably the best game I have ever played. Vanguard ranking a close 2nd. Aion is currently growing on me some as well.

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