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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Crowd Control? A thing of the past?

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45 posts found
  brostyn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/04
Posts: 3120

Cynical? Me? Never.

11/29/10 11:12:38 PM#21
Originally posted by ajrock622

I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/29/10 11:28:36 PM#22
Originally posted by brostyn
Originally posted by ajrock622

I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

Well you are strictly talking about mezz. I'm going to assume we are talking about DAOC type mezzes. If that is the case yes you are right for the most part. Even mezz however has some strategy behind it. Choosing who to mezz and when is vital but it's like that with any CC. Taunt is much more of a reactive skill where CC can be both.

I am however talking about CC in general (root/stun/knockdown/knockback/disarm/silence/mana drain/etc.) Knowing when to use an ability that puts stress on your enemy is strategic.

 

I.E. DPS Warrior archtype with an spell casting interupt vs a Hybrid dps/healer

 

Without the interupt a warrior has to rely on either getting the RNG to favor him/her and get lucky crits to burst the caster down before they can offset the warriors high damage with the casters heals or hope that the caster runs out of mana before the warrior runs out of health.

 

With the interupt the warrior has to choose between interupting a dps spell to save himeself from incomming damage or interupt a heal and continue to burn the caster down until dead. We all know which is more important. Timing on the second is everything as anyone who has played a class that like knows.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  Spasticolon

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/09
Posts: 182

11/29/10 11:54:54 PM#23
Originally posted by ajrock622

I miss the days of Daoc sitting watching your group die while you stood mezzed/rooted/stunned but it was so much fun when you were on the other side.

You have a point in my opinion. However you can't really deny they still exists Warhammer has knockdowns, roots, and knockbacks. WoW has roots and stuns. Aoins has Asians? Even Eve has electronic weaponry.

I rarely got locked down in Aion as a Cleric which made me sad, but the times that I was CC'ed (CC'd?) by a smart sorc and then my group blown up was a nice reaffirmation that some people know who to target first.

Developers seem to be moving towards less fight changing CC (shorter durations unlike 1 min single target mezzes of Daoc). Especially in PvP. I always liked how single target spells lasted tons longer than AoE ones in Dark Age and that you could also spend points into ways to offest the time it lasted on you.

I think the biggest problem facing crowd controll is immunity timers. Finding the right length of time so someone can't stunlock you is at the front of the list. Gone are the days when you could keep someone locked down for more than 20 seconds but with it went being interupted if a melee looked at you when you were casting. Pre-kiting and combat kiting was an artform. Nothing was more frustrating than being locked down not being able to cast except once every 30 seconds as a caster. When WoW came out and you only got set back a half second or less when being swung at I thought it was overpowered as Warlocks.

Try a Sorc in Aion, you can lockdown for nearly as long as you have mana. You have to farm/buy the Tree stigma, but you can chain up CC and keep one Mob out of the fight, or two if you have a little help. I played a Cleric, with the most broken CC available. A root, that lasts for 6 seconds, and has a 10 second cooldown, made PvP so much easier for me when hunting down runners. When in dungeons I would keep an eye on the Sorc's CC target if it was a PuG and if the sorc was slow on the CC id drop my root on it and buy him a little more time.

But I will agree that Warhammers Immunity was a bit of a ballsup, I ran Aura mod just so that I knew when my CC would not work on a mob because some tanks were spam happy with their punt, but not smart enough to punt them to our MDPS stack, instead sending them to their own healers for a top up.

The point is you are correct in the fact that CC classes no longer exist. Healers have to be able to do damage or they are gimp and everyone needs to have a self heal these days.

Yeah, the reduction of CC classes means that Healers have to do more work, or everyone has to have some ability to heal themselves to alleviate the great big clustercuck of herp derp AoE. Such is the way of streamlining, very soon MMO's will play like Diablo 2, No heal class, No tank class, all DPS and potions.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/29/10 11:58:49 PM#24

It sounds like Aion has no immunity timers placed into the game yet. So I'll take your word on the lockdown stuff and chain rooting cleric.

 

I hope you are wrong in your prediction. I would love a current gen MMO to come out with clearly defined roles for each class.

 

And trifaction pvp of course.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  Averros

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/09
Posts: 133

There is no innocence, only degree's of guilt!

 
OP  11/30/10 12:05:12 AM#25
Originally posted by Spasticolon
Originally posted by ajrock622

I miss the days of Daoc sitting watching your group die while you stood mezzed/rooted/stunned but it was so much fun when you were on the other side.

You have a point in my opinion. However you can't really deny they still exists Warhammer has knockdowns, roots, and knockbacks. WoW has roots and stuns. Aoins has Asians? Even Eve has electronic weaponry.

I rarely got locked down in Aion as a Cleric which made me sad, but the times that I was CC'ed (CC'd?) by a smart sorc and then my group blown up was a nice reaffirmation that some people know who to target first.

Developers seem to be moving towards less fight changing CC (shorter durations unlike 1 min single target mezzes of Daoc). Especially in PvP. I always liked how single target spells lasted tons longer than AoE ones in Dark Age and that you could also spend points into ways to offest the time it lasted on you.

I think the biggest problem facing crowd controll is immunity timers. Finding the right length of time so someone can't stunlock you is at the front of the list. Gone are the days when you could keep someone locked down for more than 20 seconds but with it went being interupted if a melee looked at you when you were casting. Pre-kiting and combat kiting was an artform. Nothing was more frustrating than being locked down not being able to cast except once every 30 seconds as a caster. When WoW came out and you only got set back a half second or less when being swung at I thought it was overpowered as Warlocks.

Try a Sorc in Aion, you can lockdown for nearly as long as you have mana. You have to farm/buy the Tree stigma, but you can chain up CC and keep one Mob out of the fight, or two if you have a little help. I played a Cleric, with the most broken CC available. A root, that lasts for 6 seconds, and has a 10 second cooldown, made PvP so much easier for me when hunting down runners. When in dungeons I would keep an eye on the Sorc's CC target if it was a PuG and if the sorc was slow on the CC id drop my root on it and buy him a little more time.

But I will agree that Warhammers Immunity was a bit of a ballsup, I ran Aura mod just so that I knew when my CC would not work on a mob because some tanks were spam happy with their punt, but not smart enough to punt them to our MDPS stack, instead sending them to their own healers for a top up.

The point is you are correct in the fact that CC classes no longer exist. Healers have to be able to do damage or they are gimp and everyone needs to have a self heal these days.

Yeah, the reduction of CC classes means that Healers have to do more work, or everyone has to have some ability to heal themselves to alleviate the great big clustercuck of herp derp AoE. Such is the way of streamlining, very soon MMO's will play like Diablo 2, No heal class, No tank class, all DPS and potions.

I wish I could try Aion but the damnable game will not install on my machine for some reason... the patcher continually restarts... I might just go back to EQ2 since I really want to go back to playing a crowd control class....

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  tiki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 398

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011

11/30/10 12:09:12 AM#26
Originally posted by Paradoxy

Warhammer is king of CC and the worst one you can find in any PVP MMORPG.

Not true at all, DAOC was the king of CC before WAR released, and is still the king of CC after WAR released.  Also it is the king of PVP.

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
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  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/30/10 12:12:06 AM#27
Originally posted by tiki
Originally posted by Paradoxy

Warhammer is king of CC and the worst one you can find in any PVP MMORPG.

Not true at all, DAOC was the king of CC before WAR released, and is still the king of CC after WAR released.  Also it is the king of PVP.

QFT

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2521

11/30/10 12:17:47 AM#28

From what I recall in Everquest the enchanters did not just stand about mezzing and eating peanuts while waiting for the mez to break. They would be juggling a few mobs on different mezzes and mezzes can break at any time. They also boosted people with haste and the mana recharge thing.

 

You all look at the situation like it is not dynamic. Fact is the mobs that come often cannot be handled without a good CC mechanic and a good enchanter doing it. Enchanters who were poor players could not really handle the task because it involved picking the targets to enchant and also placement of mobs. For one thing you cannot just succeed with just the enchanter enchanting. The others also have to do know and do their jobs too. It would be a constantly changing situation that could turn ugly when people make mistakes. Most situations without mezzing the encounter cannot be done at all. So the way you think is better is just healing through most damage is way less interesting then the dynamics in a  group that involved a healer who knew when and who to heal and watching for when mezzes break themselves to be ready to heal the enchanter should the mezzed mob hurt the enchanter too bad before he lands the mez again. A dead enchanter is a dead group. DPS who definitely knew never to injure the mezzed mob lest the mez breaks, things these days people never learn. Sometimes it also involved the magician using his pet to tank one extra mob. All things people did when they played well without having to be told and mind you these mobs could kill you in like 3 hits if you are a cloth wearer.

 

You argue this is boring. I see great cohesion and  the satisfaction of having worked together so well and the pride that comes from handling those dungeon runs. The no cc situation is way more bland in my book.

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  Phenix2687

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/10
Posts: 12

11/30/10 12:36:53 AM#29
Originally posted by brostyn
Originally posted by ajrock622

I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."

Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

 

WOOOOOOWWWW I can not believe my eyes right now.  Brostyn I'm gonna call BS on everything you just said about MMO's you have played because I bet my bottom dollar that anyone whos played enchanter in EQ1 past level 30 would never think that CC made games easier.  Enchanters/Coercers were the absolute hardest classes to play in EQ1/EQ2 and both of those games with EQ1 having the slight edge were the only games that REQUIRED CC to survive most fights aside from DAOC in which mez was pretty crucial as well.  Come to think of it lets throw in Sorcerers from DAOC in there as being one of the most difficult classes to play as well.  Crowd control brings entirely new tactics to every fight and requires all players to actually be focused on what their doing.  Why?  Because as soon as CC comes into play all DPS classes MUST assist the MT and know their abilities/spells inside and out in order to ensure they dont AoE and break mez or incorrectly macro and damage a mezzed enemy resulting in your group getting PWNED.  Lets say someone makes a mistake and does break mez on a mob, this requires even more focus and skill because now that mob is immediately aggro'd to the CC'er who has next to nothing in HP and will go down from just a few shots if the MT does not peel the mob etc.  Those games, especially EQ 1, had many zones in which even the MOST SKILLED pullers would aggro large groups of mobs so to say that pulling too many mobs makes you a bad puller just proves my point even further because if you actualled played EQ1 you would understand this.  I'll somewhat give you the benefit of the doubt because I must add that I played EQ1 in its first 3 years of existence and I know that game has changed a lot but I doubt to the point where pulling too many mobs and requiring CC makes people not want to group with you.

I agree entirely with everything else that everyone has said on this post.  The reason that CC is being phased out in more modern MMO's is because of the short attention span of the players these games have been built to attract.  CC means (not 100% of the time but mostly, especially EQ1) longer fights requiring more focus, more assisting, harder enemies (and more of them) that have higher hp all resulting in the introduction of new tactics being required which ultimately culminates into a slower rate of xp'ing.  This is something that more modern players (who are unfortunately the majority now) would be less likely to tolerate because their idea of an MMO is WoW where at least 2 of your group members could be afk at any time and you could fly through dungeons without a problem.  WoW, although succesful, has created a dark era for MMO's because us true MMO players (around in the times of ultima online, EQ 1, DAOC) understand that these games are supposed to be difficult and that they require a decent input of your time.  These games are supposed to punish you for making mistakes (death penalty, corpse recovery, difficult fights requiring CC)  as well as offer the rewards your looking for (gear, levels, challenge) not spoon feed everything to you like cookie cutter WoW in which there is no real challenge, tactics, or diversity in character specs/gear. 

Thanks for reading my super long post.

 

Cheers

  Phenix2687

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/10
Posts: 12

11/30/10 12:41:27 AM#30
Originally posted by cheyane

From what I recall in Everquest the enchanters did not just stand about mezzing and eating peanuts while waiting for the mez to break. They would be juggling a few mobs on different mezzes and mezzes can break at any time. They also boosted people with haste and the mana recharge thing.

 

You all look at the situation like it is not dynamic. Fact is the mobs that come often cannot be handled without a good CC mechanic and a good enchanter doing it. Enchanters who were poor players could not really handle the task because it involved picking the targets to enchant and also placement of mobs. For one thing you cannot just succeed with just the enchanter enchanting. The others also have to do know and do their jobs too. It would be a constantly changing situation that could turn ugly when people make mistakes. Most situations without mezzing the encounter cannot be done at all. So the way you think is better is just healing through most damage is way less interesting then the dynamics in a  group that involved a healer who knew when and who to heal and watching for when mezzes break themselves to be ready to heal the enchanter should the mezzed mob hurt the enchanter too bad before he lands the mez again. A dead enchanter is a dead group. DPS who definitely knew never to injure the mezzed mob lest the mez breaks, things these days people never learn. Sometimes it also involved the magician using his pet to tank one extra mob. All things people did when they played well without having to be told and mind you these mobs could kill you in like 3 hits if you are a cloth wearer.

 

You argue this is boring. I see great cohesion and  the satisfaction of having worked together so well and the pride that comes from handling those dungeon runs. The no cc situation is way more bland in my book.

 

Well said I couldn't agree more.  Mezzing and keeping mobs mezzed was an art and took buttloads of skill.  It required people to actually pay attention and not make mistakes, and as a tank your duties were ten fold because you werent just protecting healers your protecting your CC, who sometimes is most important.  Makes me miss the good ol EQ days.  Btw in case you didn't know, EQ 1 is throwing out a progression server, time locked this time so people won't be blowing through content.  Word is that its planned to be opened up in January, I will definitely be there.

  dannydeuce

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 312

11/30/10 12:43:25 AM#31

I honestly think it's very hard to balance CC in a pvp setting.  Just the slightest tweak and/or buff could make that character immensily op'd. 

I love CC in PvE, but PvP cc is game-breaking in so many situations.  Don't get me wrong, I love CC in all it's glory, but not to the point where I have to run instantly from certain classes.

  tiki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 398

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011

11/30/10 12:48:24 AM#32
Originally posted by dannydeuce

I honestly think it's very hard to balance CC in a pvp setting.  Just the slightest tweak and/or buff could make that character immensily op'd. 

I love CC in PvE, but PvP cc is game-breaking in so many situations.  Don't get me wrong, I love CC in all it's glory, but not to the point where I have to run instantly from certain classes.

CC is easily balanced in PVP with a good mix of anti CC skills/spells and player skill.  Case and point DAOC. 

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC

Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.

Waiting on: Earthrise

Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus

  Phenix2687

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/10
Posts: 12

11/30/10 12:49:46 AM#33
Originally posted by tiki
Originally posted by dannydeuce

I honestly think it's very hard to balance CC in a pvp setting.  Just the slightest tweak and/or buff could make that character immensily op'd. 

I love CC in PvE, but PvP cc is game-breaking in so many situations.  Don't get me wrong, I love CC in all it's glory, but not to the point where I have to run instantly from certain classes.

CC is easily balanced in PVP with a good mix of anti CC skills/spells and player skill.  Case and point DAOC. 

100% agreed, DAOC did it quite well.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/30/10 1:00:55 AM#34

Let's keep in mind that for months after launch Minstrels and Sorcs amoung other classes with mezz and other forms of CC were soloing groups because of no immunity timers.

 

The key to balancing CC is the timers you are immune to it and the counters to CC itself. With the use of anti-CC abilities and proper immunity timers CC becomes less game changing. Player skill and in most cases these days gear take over from there.

 

Dark Age has become balanced because of RAs and timers. Warhammer is on it's way.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  tiki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 398

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011

11/30/10 1:02:36 AM#35
Originally posted by ajrock622

Let's keep in mind that for months after launch Minstrels and Sorcs amoung other classes with mezz and other forms of CC were soloing groups because of no immunity timers.

 

The key to balancing CC is the timers you are immune to it and the counters to CC itself. With the use of anti-CC abilities and proper immunity timers CC becomes less game changing. Player skill and in most cases these days gear take over from there.

 

Dark Age has become balanced because of RAs and timers. Warhammer is on it's way.

Agreed, I was going under the assumption that we now know how awful of an idea it is to have no immunity timers lol.

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC

Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.

Waiting on: Earthrise

Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/30/10 1:46:03 AM#36

How is Dark Age these days. Last time they gave a free 14 days I logged for about 20 minutes and forgot how bad the UI is. I love that game despite it's old style combat and casting system. The UI is just too much. Or maybe because it was that my constant fellow gaming group refused to play with me. Oh well I guess there's cataclysm come tuesday.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  tiki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 398

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011

11/30/10 1:57:27 AM#37
Originally posted by ajrock622

How is Dark Age these days. Last time they gave a free 14 days I logged for about 20 minutes and forgot how bad the UI is. I love that game despite it's old style combat and casting system. The UI is just too much. Or maybe because it was that my constant fellow gaming group refused to play with me. Oh well I guess there's cataclysm come tuesday.

DAOC is a blast if you have friends to play with.  I started back up again all by myself a while ago and couldnt get a 8man pvp group to save my life.  I eventually badgered 3 of my old DAOC friends into coming back and have been having a blast ever since.  We will run molvik if big boy rvr is too zergy so it gives a good variety of play.

 

As for the UI, I can understand people not liking it, but I personally love it.  It is more customizable than any other game I feel, and minimally intrusive.  Also I personally love the old casting system, every MMO I have played after DAOC felt so easy to play a caster with having virtually no interrupts.  It definitely adds a new dimension to daoc's strategy in 8 man, being able to win the interrupt battle is huge and requires a lot of skill and communication.

East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
--------------------
Current game: DAOC

Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.

Waiting on: Earthrise

Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus

  dannydeuce

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 312

11/30/10 2:14:43 AM#38
Originally posted by tiki
Originally posted by dannydeuce

I honestly think it's very hard to balance CC in a pvp setting.  Just the slightest tweak and/or buff could make that character immensily op'd. 

I love CC in PvE, but PvP cc is game-breaking in so many situations.  Don't get me wrong, I love CC in all it's glory, but not to the point where I have to run instantly from certain classes.

CC is easily balanced in PVP with a good mix of anti CC skills/spells and player skill.  Case and point DAOC. 

 

Daoc was* fairly strong in its balance department.  With that said, 90% of the time with Daoc the FOTM characters always had an outlandish amount of CC before they were "balanced".  In addition, many of the anti CC items and skills were tweaked along the way, meaning they were not always as great as they are now (guessing).

Like I said, it still is hard to balance CC around pvp.  DAOC is better than most, but still a game has to put a huge amount of time/testing/effort in order to perfect it.  I can't say I've seen a game that has perfected it.

 

* - Haven't played DAOC in quite some time so my references are rusty and not up to date.  You guys still playing are the experts in regards to the current DAOC.  I am saying the MMORPG genre as a whole has balance issues regarding CC.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

11/30/10 2:21:40 AM#39

Baseline stun is overpowered!

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  swing848

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/10
Posts: 273

11/30/10 10:04:36 AM#40



Originally posted by brostyn


Originally posted by ajrock622

I never played EQ but if you take CC out then like I stated before all you basically have is a player spamming dmg/taunting/healing skills until a mob is dead. There's no real strategy used in that. Yes enounters may require movent and such but it still boils down to "press 1 if x, press 2 if y, press 3 if z, repeat."


Yet, you are insinuating that there is strategy by pressing a spell gem that puts mobs to sleep. I fail to see how making a mob totally harmless by pressing your mez key is more strategic than pressing taunt hotkeys. I think it actually makes it easier, because the mob isn't even causing damage. So, basically you are healing less with mez than without. Less resources are being used, and the chance of dying is significantly reduced.  There is absolutely no player strategy involved when all I have to do is hit the mez key. Mez is far more powerful than taunt, as a mez basically takes that creature out of the fight, where as taunt just makes them attack a particular person. Yea, not seeing how putting a mob to sleep is easier than having to control that mobs aggro.

My first post dissappeared.

Both of you are wrong on this one.

This example regards mobs. PvP requires different strategy because individual players may break mez soon and or call for help [depending upon the game]. DAOC is famous for this. Group stranded and in need of help? Call the rest of the battlegroup to help you. Just an example.

OK, back to mobs.

In games that use CC, tanks are required to keep agro [and deal damage] while the healer keeps the tank alive, and at the same time the caster burns the mob to the ground.

In addition, if a lot of high level mobs decide to join the fight the tank will probably not be able to get agro on all of the mobs, because after too much healing the mobs go after the healer[s] and kill them. Healers dead.

Next in line are the primary damage dealers, cloth wearers that do lots of damage but can't take much. Now the squishies are dead. This leaves the tank. With so many mobs hitting him he will probably die, and if not, the rest of the group is already dead. The group will need someone to res them. If the tank can res, fine. They can do the same thing again and end up dead again.

So, tanks have a purpose, protect the squishies and healers, cloth wearing damage dealers and cloth wearing CC classes survive ... because of the CC character.

Now, if you are whining about a solo CC character going against a single mob, you must remember that most CC classes are very good at CC and not the best at killing. So, the guy casts on the mob [or uses a pet as well]. In that case if the mob goes after the guy he or she will have to ... kite ...

Kite, yes everyone loves to do that, just run for your life and hope the mob does not catch up with you. And, the mob does not because you use CC to stop the mob, get more distance again and finish killing the mob.

How does this CC type class differ from a pure DPS caster? Depending upon the game, the DPS class may have to kite until he is high enough in some skill to burn a single mob to the ground.

How does this CC type differ from a tank? If the tank has the ability to pull a single mob from a group, then all he needs to do is tank and kill the single mob.

Now, put a lone tank in an instance against high level mobs that love to agro in large groups. The tank will die.

Put a lone DPS caster in an instanstance against high level mobs that love to agro in large groups. The caster will die.

Now do you get the picture? The game mechanics require people to work together to accomplish a mission.

This is CC 101.

And, in a large and hectic fight the guy responsible for CC is just as important as the tank. someone has to keep the healer alive and help keep the tank alive. Too many heals and the healer pulls agro. With 6 mobs headed for the healer someone has to keep him alive and that is called CC. Also, there will be times that the timer will finish and there are lots of mobs still alive, dead tank unless someone is there to re-mez. So the the CC guy can't simply mez once and go back to watching Bay Watch or whatever.

By the way, this system is supposed to create community by requiring people to work together and that should evolve into talking to eachother, people learn about other people and they want to game together. This is where I have something against WoW, there are raiding guilds that will not let you in their guild because your gear is not good enough. Pathetic. And, this is Blizzard's fault in large part. It is also the players fault because they are too stuck up and look down their noses at those that have lesser gear. They are too lazy to take a little time to help someone else along, all they care about is what they want. Get away from me, you can't play in my sandbox! Sometimes 6 year old kids are more grown up.

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