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Lord of the Rings Online

Lord of the Rings Online 

General Discussion  » There is no true PvP

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24 posts found
  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1081

Kill Your Heroes

 
OP  10/26/10 3:08:44 AM#1

I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

 

I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

 

Explain...

  User Deleted
10/26/10 3:10:46 AM#2

Only 1 zone and has very little affect to the game.

  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1081

Kill Your Heroes

 
OP  10/26/10 3:33:06 AM#3

True, but it is a rather large zone, with many keeps, camps and several other points of interrest. It can also have an affect on the game, depending how you look at it. Through PvMP you can complete deeds, earn titles and ranks, and get gear.

  trancejeremy

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 1221

10/26/10 5:38:58 AM#4

Duh, they can't gank newbies.

 

Like it or not, that's a pretty big component in PvP games. And while a newly made creep probably isn't that tough, it's more effort to kill than a level 6 hobbit would be

R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  choujiofkono

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 899

Extreme copy-paste development in FFXIV
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10/26/10 5:56:13 AM#5

  PvP in most games is fun for about 15 minutes anyway.  I play AArma2, TF2, and those kinds of games for my gibfests.  I don't really see the point in PvP in MMO's to be honest.  They all boil down to the build of the month club or the "who's got the shiniest weapon" club.  There is no real skill in that kind of gameplay in my opinion.  It's like playing chess and telling the black side they can move an extra square every round.  Either way it's perpetually unbalanced.  PvP is only fun when you have the same amount of options as your opponent and you both have to choose what you do with them.  PvP rebalancing pretty much destroys the fun and immersion of an MMO by making the PvE experience suck with nerfs.  I like a godlike healer, a magic nuke of doom, a warrior that can stand and fight 15 enemies, and a sneaky rouge that can fire off arrows while hidden.  You don't really see any cool stuff like that because of PvP balance issues. 

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  sadeyx

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 1570

10/26/10 6:04:01 AM#6
Originally posted by trancejeremy

Duh, they can't gank newbies.

I think you got your argument arse over tit, lol

If you cant 'gank' then it means your in a reasonably level playing field.   Which, in terms of any player vs player sport means that its True PvP.  an Enclosed envoiroment.  Thats why you have leagues and divisions in football, its why you seperate men and women at the olympics.

For example,  if your a murderer who takes someone by suprise...  thats not a fight, nor a battle nor is it war.. its just opportunistic. 

So ganking isnt pvp either, its just opportunistic.   Thats why you dont consider Pirates in Eve to be pvpers, they are cowards who have little pvp skill but take pleasure in influicting pain and discomfort on others.   They activly avoid any kind of challenge.

A true pvper seeks challenge, balance, an envoiroment in which human wit, fast thinking, cunning and skill are the measures of victory.. not the tools of war.

Saying "you cant gank" actually implies that its a challenging pvp envoiroment.

  Mackeh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 170

10/26/10 6:27:21 AM#7



Originally posted by choujiofkono
  PvP in most games is fun for about 15 minutes anyway.  I play AArma2, TF2, and those kinds of games for my gibfests.  I don't really see the point in PvP in MMO's to be honest.  They all boil down to the build of the month club or the "who's got the shiniest weapon" club.  There is no real skill in that kind of gameplay in my opinion.  It's like playing chess and telling the black side they can move an extra square every round.  Either way it's perpetually unbalanced.  PvP is only fun when you have the same amount of options as your opponent and you both have to choose what you do with them.  PvP rebalancing pretty much destroys the fun and immersion of an MMO by making the PvE experience suck with nerfs.  I like a godlike healer, a magic nuke of doom, a warrior that can stand and fight 15 enemies, and a sneaky rouge that can fire off arrows while hidden.  You don't really see any cool stuff like that because of PvP balance issues. 

See thats where ya wrong!

As a 60's child I grew up in a world where kids did not run to the tissue cupboard as soon as things became "Unfair", we just adapted to the situation. PvP in say WOW is brilliant as you know that while out questing the chances are you are going to run tinot a PvP fight that may be totally unfair, it is this sense of worry that adds atmosphere to the game, this is why I hate BG's or Arena, it's all staged and setup....ready, steady, GO! You know how many enemy, where they are and it's all nice and even...bah how boring.

I like nothing more than being attacked in STV by 2 or 3 guys a few levels or the same level as me and being totally ganked, then finding a few other guys on my faction and hunting them down for revenge. Thats PvP! LOTRO has no PvP imo, world PvP is the only PvP worth playing.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

10/26/10 8:42:51 AM#8
Originally posted by Mackeh

 

See thats where ya wrong!

As a 60's child I grew up in a world where kids did not run to the tissue cupboard as soon as things became "Unfair", we just adapted to the situation. PvP in say WOW is brilliant as you know that while out questing the chances are you are going to run tinot a PvP fight that may be totally unfair, it is this sense of worry that adds atmosphere to the game, this is why I hate BG's or Arena, it's all staged and setup....ready, steady, GO! You know how many enemy, where they are and it's all nice and even...bah how boring.

I like nothing more than being attacked in STV by 2 or 3 guys a few levels or the same level as me and being totally ganked, then finding a few other guys on my faction and hunting them down for revenge. Thats PvP! LOTRO has no PvP imo, world PvP is the only PvP worth playing.

Oh please is this the Sesame Street crowd speaking? As a 80's child i grew up in a world where kids lived with the consequences of their actions, instead of being stupid, we adapted to the situation. PvP in say EvE is brilliant as you know that while your out exploring chances are your going to run into hostile players, a PvP fight that is most likely going to be totally unfair and will have noticeable consequences if you stumble into it unwary. It is this sense of consequences and thinking ahead that adds atmosphere to the game. This is why i hate meaningless world PvP where you just run back to your corpse and revive ... ready, steady, GO!

Imho PvP with consequences is the only PvP worth playing.

 

See what i did there? Claiming only one kind of PvP is worth having is just arrogant, WoWs open world PvP is utterly boring to me, it just does not give me any adrenalin kick. However only having 200 mil in your wallet and getting stuck in a wormhole with hostile probes on scan in your pimped T3 and having to claw your way out through a bubbled WH leading most likely into 0.0 space. YIEHAAA baby. You can't even log out to be safe or port back home, talk about angst. Oh and the public humiliation of killboards, your corpmates are never going to let you live down getting slaughtered in your T3 by a couple t1 cruisers.

 

You either have PvP with consequences, or you have PvP without. If loosing does not matter then winning doesn't either. If im not getting the shakes in PvP im more likely than not bored.

  Papadam

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 2127

10/26/10 11:24:25 AM#9

PvP in LotrO is not competetive in the same sense as other games/MMOs which makes competetive people hate it. PvMP should be played just for the fun of killing :)

If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

10/26/10 11:34:17 AM#10

For the few months I did play LOTRO, I found LOTRO's PvP system more enjoyable than most other MMOs I've played. Despite the limitations and a few balance issues, I generally found it more balanced and well, just plain more fun.

After reaching level 10 I think it was, I was able to create a creep and jump into the PvP. I didn't have to worry about grinding gear, levels, etc. Just created a character, and jumped into the fray. Of course there is the grind of infamy I believe it was, but your best gains were from just participating and having fun.

The concept of a PvPM system has a lot more potential as well. Because the Creep characters are just a fixed level, and are made explicitly for PvP, it's much easier (in theory) for developers to balance PvP. Rather than full characters vs full characters, who need a whole range of abilities that span several levels, gear, abilities etc, the developers can focus on designing creep characters to be a specific power level and give them a pool of abilities tailored to counter regular characters, without having to worry overly too much about PvE viability or level/gear scaling.

  warmaster670

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/08
Posts: 1441

10/26/10 11:35:34 AM#11

So it has fake pvp? huh, here i thought i played it.

 

Newsflash, pvp is pvp, there is no such thing as "true" pvp, seeing as pvp stands for player vs player, and it really doesnt get anymore basic than that.

Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  Murashu

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1397

10/26/10 11:45:14 AM#12

Is the PvMP really that fun? I've played LotRO off and on several times and never could get high enough to PvP due to the boring PvE quest grind. I never have figured out why games require you to PvE before becoming eligible to PvP.

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  Robsolf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4047

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

10/26/10 11:46:09 AM#13
Originally posted by warmaster670

So it has fake pvp? huh, here i thought i played it.

 

Newsflash, pvp is pvp, there is no such thing as "true" pvp, seeing as pvp stands for player vs player, and it really doesnt get anymore basic than that.

The only "true" PvP is 2 people actually in a room beating the crap out of each other.

Until they're ready to do that, they should StFU about what's true PvP and what isn't.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19497

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/26/10 11:50:20 AM#14
Originally posted by sadeyx
Originally posted by trancejeremy

Duh, they can't gank newbies.

I think you got your argument arse over tit, lol

If you cant 'gank' then it means your in a reasonably level playing field.   Which, in terms of any player vs player sport means that its True PvP.  an Enclosed envoiroment.  Thats why you have leagues and divisions in football, its why you seperate men and women at the olympics.

For example,  if your a murderer who takes someone by suprise...  thats not a fight, nor a battle nor is it war.. its just opportunistic. 

So ganking isnt pvp either, its just opportunistic.   Thats why you dont consider Pirates in Eve to be pvpers, they are cowards who have little pvp skill but take pleasure in influicting pain and discomfort on others.   They activly avoid any kind of challenge.

A true pvper seeks challenge, balance, an envoiroment in which human wit, fast thinking, cunning and skill are the measures of victory.. not the tools of war.

Saying "you cant gank" actually implies that its a challenging pvp envoiroment.

Depend on the game.  In EVE "true pvper's" win at all costs, since there are stakes and consequences for losing on the line.

While I'm not a fan of "ganking" newbies or the helpless, no one said all PVP games have to provide a fair and balanced environment, half the challenge can be to make sure you win and always win, no matter what.

 

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  User Deleted
10/26/10 11:56:28 AM#15

Lotro is a Pve focused game.

The monster play mechanic is just something else to do.

You get to mess with a monster class and gain destiny points these points can be spent on Skills, traits and buffs.

The zone ( a rather big freaking zone) that you have access to is filled with quests and little pvp objectives.

So yeah OP, there is no true pvp (a total pvp focus) in Lotro but does there need to be? The Pve is rather good imo.

  Cik_Asalin

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/04
Posts: 3091

10/26/10 12:12:50 PM#16
Originally posted by Unreal024

I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

 

I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

 

Explain...

PvP as a term is much more expansive then then a simple cage-match in a confined area between a few players that has no content or game-play meaning.  PvP involves merchandising, resource management, control and gathering, trades, combat for bragging rights, control for game-play purposes, clan contribution to game-play and personal rank.  Not one mmorpg in the last 6 years has done it as well as CCP, and not one development studio has been able to sustain as active an audience compared to most AAA titles than EVE.

  User Deleted
10/26/10 12:18:05 PM#17
Originally posted by Cik_Asalin
Originally posted by Unreal024

I've seen it stated, again and again, that LotRO  has no 'true' pvp. Having played PvMP on both creeps and freeps i'm curious just what this means? How is pvp in LotRO really any different than say... Warhammer, or Aion, WoW, or any other themepark game?

 

I guess you could argue that Monster characters aren't full fledged toons, but there are people who have spent just as much time on their Monster toons as I have on my LM. They put up a damn good fight aswell, someone who is willing to spend the time on a Monster character is in no way gimped, not like they used to be.

 

Explain...

PvP as a term is much more expansive then then a simple cage-match in a confined area between a few players that has no content or game-play meaning.  PvP involves merchandising, resource management, control and gathering, trades, combat for bragging rights, control for game-play purposes, clan contribution to game-play and personal rank.  Not one mmorpg in the last 6 years has done it as well as CCP, and not one development studio has been able to sustain as active an audience compared to most AAA titles than EVE.

So only EvE has real pvp? awesome.

Some people like Monster play dude and consider it pvp.

Because it doesnt fit that absurd definition of "real pvp" doesnt mean it doesnt have pvp on some level.

  k44cv9

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/10
Posts: 33

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

10/28/10 5:21:36 PM#18

One thing is important there was no plan from the beginning to have pvp in lotro. But they changed it and made the mecanics off pvmp. 

Its really hard work to get to rank 15 on both creep and freep side. You really need to be addicted to get that high rank. 

There is also DoF (delving of Fror) under ettenmors where there is pve but still you can run into creeps and freeps while you are fighthing a pve boss or mob.

 

And as someone said earlier in this thread lotro is a game with focus on pve, not like warhammer online where the focus is rvr (pvp).

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

10/28/10 5:39:29 PM#19

Turbine simply doesn't oput any effort into it and still after all this time it is only one zone and has very little overall effect on anything outside of that zone 'cept maybe bragging rights.  That and dealing with the occasional butthurt player that gets po'd and decides tio make a toon on the opposite side so they can share with other players how they were slighted so we can all feel their pain.

It isn't that there isn't any PvP it 's just that compared to some other games it's fairly weak.  Which is fine.  They've made it rather obvious that isn't one of their focal points for the game.  Which when you consider how some games fare when they try to offer both elements in their game may not be such a bad thing.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

10/29/10 3:02:53 AM#20
Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Turbine simply doesn't oput any effort into it and still after all this time it is only one zone and has very little overall effect on anything outside of that zone 'cept maybe bragging rights.  That and dealing with the occasional butthurt player that gets po'd and decides tio make a toon on the opposite side so they can share with other players how they were slighted so we can all feel their pain.

It isn't that there isn't any PvP it 's just that compared to some other games it's fairly weak.  Which is fine.  They've made it rather obvious that isn't one of their focal points for the game.  Which when you consider how some games fare when they try to offer both elements in their game may not be such a bad thing.

 

Spreading the population around 3 different zones per levelrange did not work so well for warhammer. More is not better with PvP, if we had 10 PvP zones the size of ettenmoors it would ruin the PvP because you would never encounter another player.

Ettenmoors is frickin huge, they should work on content there, not include even more dead space that only serves to delay your arrival at some POI by several minutes. But anyway, Turbine is going to focus on PvP early next year i think. First is the November update, then new raids early next year, PvP update and inclusion of premiums, and then the next expansion around june which will be Isengard.


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