First off, I would like to say this is nothing personal but based on experience from Lyra's other "hit" game Underlight. Even if it is second generation, the concept and GM (Game Master) staff is pretty much the same.  

As some may or mayn't know, Reclamation is a spin off of Lyra Studio's game Underlight. The game is based on the concept of pure interaction without all the npcs' you find in other mmo's. Only thing AI controlled are the mobs (Less the GM controlled mobs that run amok in game from time to time attacking players).  The entire game is based on the player. controlled and ran.

Now here is where it gets bad. Within Underlight (or UL as the players call it)  the game takes literal MONTHS and YEARS for advancement. The game is based on orbits (same as levels) and even 10 levels, you have to seek out a player controlled teacher for a long, tedious and drawn out "quest" to attain a scrap of xp that puts you over the top to level 10. (or 20, 30 etc). 

Within this system, they players are forced to adhere to strict guidelines. If they give a quest thats too easy deemed by the Game Master staff, not only will the player who quested loose their newly achieved orbit and have to request all over again, but the player teacher is stripped of their ability to teach others (the ability is actually a game mechanic). The same rules apply to arts (spells) both with leveling them AND learning them. This makes for a very tedious and mundane learning system even though it is unique.

Now within Underlight, relationships are made. Friendships, etc. However most of the population are "elitists". They expect you to learn fast, not break any rules, and understand everything from the beginning. Unlike a newbie area with most mmo's that some people will hang out in and help, within UL there are none. If you are not a member of a "Cliche" or have someone in game that knows you, you're SoL. Yes, people say "Oh, you're new?" stay two minutes and leave quickly to avoid explaining the game under the pretense of "having to go do something".

On to a major flaw within the system. What I could call no less then a heavy hand of the GM staff. I have read on the player boards as well seen ingame that the staff within UL are bias and without a doubt. I have seen favoritism within the GM's ingame characters (known as elders). And what should happen if you need something to learn from them? They tell you to seek out another teacher. apparently the GM toons are so elite that "questing" a new player is beneath them.  The GM's and their toons are within the game to help old players and their pets.

With all this said, all these people that make Underlight, run it, and play it will be migrating once Reclamation is out. Nothing will change except the graphics and a few well placed game functions. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what Reclamation will be about. Play WoW, DAoC, MxO, EQ II, or what ever you prefer but avoid this game like the plague.

Why you should not listen to this man:

First off I'd like to say this is nothing personal but based on experience fom Lyra's other "hit" game underlight.

The concept of pure interaction makes for an environment unlike you find any other place. Because the game is controlled and ran by the players, you get to affect it like you cannot any other game. It allows you to do basically anything you want as long as you follow very simple and sensible rules.

Now here is where it gets good. What was called months and years to advance is a misunderstanding, because as the game develops, what is looked at as high levels follow with the game, and so it regulates itself in requirements for advancing. If the quests you obtain are "tedious and drawn out" you have the option to decline said quest and get another, there is no set quest you need to do, it is something you work out with the teacher. You may choose whichever teacher you like, and if you agree to do something you don't really want to, it is your own fault for not using your options.

This individual speaks of strict guidelines, I call them as loose as they can be. The rules for teaching are simply based on common sense, and you are very unlikely to get penalized as long as you use your head. Giving stuff for free is a no-no, but as long as a reasonable task is given, you will not be punished. No quests are pre-made, they are all unique for that particular player, made by another, live player. It is only as interesting ad the two together make it.

Indeed relationships are made, and what is here called "elitists" are simply players that have gone through exactly the same you are about to when you start playing this game. They have just played it longer and expect you not to get any short cuts when they did not get any themselves. In reclamation, there will even be an in game chatengine you could say, designed for new players to ask questions where they get answers from designated players and/or Game Masters ready to answer them. Also, the guilds in the game are always wanting new players. Once you start playing you're likely to get ran down by those wanting to get to know you and for you to join their side.

As for the claims against the GM staff, they are indeed human and mistakes have been made. However they are rare, and the great majority of the Underlight community know them to be fair, helpful and professional. In game "Elders" are roleplayed very similar to how any other player roleplays, and they are simply there to support the system, while wanting it to govern itself as much as possible.

With all that said, the people who transfer between Underlight and Reclamation, will be excellent examples of roleplaying for players who are new to this concept, and with their experience as a standard, newer players will be able to be part of something you can find no other place.

-Geir

Well, oldplayer voiced some reasonable concerns about Reclamation and its similarities to Underlight but I think that these problems should not be an issue if Lyra is really interested in improving on what they already did a nice job on.

I think that oldplayer was right that player advancement is limited, and that any game can become extremely frustrating when players are forced to keep a balance by becoming overly conservative and cold to new players who would naturally advance extremely quickly even at the highest standards.

What Lyra needs to do is to watch these web discussions and see what players want in the form of content. Clearly the old system was very limited in the way players could use their time constructively. This is a problem because adding more content adds complexity to the game and requires a much more advanced equation for a system of game play.

What Lyra did right was to keep things simple.. We know that works hence the great game we all love. But there are also obvious growing pains for players who have been playing for a long time and new members who want to play as well. The game system has become too simple and needs more complexity in order to satisfy new and old players alike; otherwise these great games run the chance of becoming stagnant.. I think this is what oldplayer was referring too with elders and newcomers.

There needs to be more content that builds upon what has already worked in order to keep players satisfied.. Games like Everquest were interested in money and expanding their capacity for new players and keep their base of veterans as well. The whole game seemed to fall to pieces as they added expansion after expansion; new features and trivial content threw the whole balance of the game leaving many players including myself robbed of something that started off really great.

The problem is adding content that is balanced and significant. I think the best way to do this is to modify simple aspects of the game; basically any of the web discussions in existence up to now are precisely what needs to be considered when creating Reclamation.

Reverting to the old game equation without adding significant content will ensure a lifespan less than or equal to that of Underlight.. I am hoping for much more and anybody who invests the time required might agree as well.

I am really hoping that there will be added game play systems other than the great systems that already exist. Simple well developed systems like Teaching and Guild Houses are what really make the game satisfying and unique. In order for Reclamation to cast a shadow there needs to be new well developed systems. The idea of territory and faction for Reclamation is a wonderful idea but there runs a chance that Lyra will go too conservative on these systems and create trivial/depressing systems.

Whatever Reclamation turns out to be, I would like to see a BIG step forward with AT LEAST a few new SIGNIFICANT game systems that will set Reclamation apart and establish itself as its own origin.

There can never be enough content so Players should not concentrate on personal advancement as a means of making an influence in the game, Content needs to be dynamic and favor those who play best not those who play longest.

It might even be a good idea to have a system that if a player has not been active enough in the game their power/orbits/arts will reflect this. Players who achieve permanent abilities/powers are going to ruin the balance of the game because only so many characters can have these powers and when this player becomes idle within the game it nullifies the potential of the game and limits the advancement of eager players.

This I think is a bad aspect of some of the elders; they make their way to the top and then they just get lazy and stop others from experiencing the same achievement. Reaching the top of the game should be an experience that all players can enjoy in their frame of time. Play straight for 3 months and reach the top.. Take a break for another month and find yourself in a slightly less powerful position. This way everybody plays the game hard and the best possibilities are always achieved.

Both Gerroz and jacob have given good responses to this post. I am disheartened that you feel reclamation is not worth playing due to what sounds like possibly bad personal experiences in underlight. But to concider Reclamation exactly the same does this g ame no justice. Lyra have done a terrific job so far on reclamation. Many new things which will add much more to gameplay, such as more focus's which each will have their own different style of play toward advancement.
The Ability for everyone to be able to plat to 19 this will certainly help encourage growth in developing your arts. New Mares which I am sure will have far better AI than we have seen in the past and will require us all to develop way's to hunt them.
The ability to overthrow a house (guild with it's own plain and building) with an aspiriant guild which is bound to bring us with many surprises Though I am interested to find out wiether or not you can belong to a guild once you belong to a house, nothing would quite be so cool as to overthrow the house from the inside.
These plus whatever other revelations that they will bring forth to us, certainly make this game anything but the original UNDERLIGHT.
Now you mention things like being left out as a newlie, of elitest groups. Well yeah there are elitest groups in underlight but that holds true in most games, with all sort of people that insults NEWBS and have no time for them etc. Though I have never experienced such in underlight I am not saying it doesn't happen. But as to the elitests, well you know Big Heads tend to make arses of themselves. And seeing DoL was a very elite house they prolly made the biggest arses of themselves but it all added to the roleplay of the entire game world, DoL makes HC fall cause they're elitest Lummies, Freesouls band together kick DoL's hinny. so on and so forth.
Now as for not really being able to fit into the groups that exist in underlight I feel that is kinda misguided and if such a statement were true I should have possibly found it extremely hard to fit in. As I am not american like most of the players. I dream at odd times due to where I am in the world, yet I found my niche in the dream and proberly even left my mark in it. I became a Guardian at order, prolly could have even made it to ruler if I wasn't ousted by a very well done rp (thanks gerroz) hehe.
Yeah much like everyone else it took me awhile to advance but that doesn't make me disgruntled. I prolly had my hand in more pies than anyone ever new. I personally have held every prime in t he dream and I was a freesoul even got knighted into a lummie house though it was only for a couple of minutes. I was involved in many different plots to overthrow certain leaders of different houses. I had my part in getting AoE it's prime back not to mention helping with getting the shards of HC's prime, I found single handedly alot of the COIDs(codex of immortal dreams which is used for learning strike) Order held the only other player in the dream that may have found more coids than me is prolly seara.
Power in the dream doesn;t come from how advanced your character is but by how well you play. You just need to look at Elysia for this an Unspehered ruler of a house. I lost my character to this game a character that took me well over a year to advance through his levels and he was no where near complete but that character prolly had one of the most eventful lifes of any of my characters. He was Struck and will never return I will never get him back, all that time and effort I put into him and he is gone, but I am not disgruntled. To be honest I feel it was all more than worth it My soul essence lies in orders library forever more I will forever be apart of the history of the game. And the biggest thing is it is we who create that history. It is we who shape and mold it, unlike any game before it we the players have control and that is something that makes not only this game one of a kind, but also prolly the most enjoyable by far.
I can garantee this, yes advancement takes awhile, yes you will never really complete this game, there is no real way to win other than to win for yourself. Create a Character explore this world, make your mark this is how to achieve, you dont need to be a dreamsmith or some mighty all powerful god to win. the only way you win is through your own achievements and your own failures to live that life worth living in a world that is a dream to be made your own!
So you could take the word of this man who seems to have found a rather unplesant time for himself and become disgruntled. Or you can take my word a person who has faced both loss and achievement in the dream and is still happy to dream that dream, and is in as much anticipation for Reclamation as he was Half-Life2.
Or you can take the final option and dare to live that dream for yourself. Be Strong and create your own dream within the dream and above all enjoy yourself.

"First off, I would like to say this is nothing personal but based on experience from Lyra's other "hit" game Underlight. Even if it is second generation, the concept and GM (Game Master) staff is pretty much the same.  

"As some may or mayn't know, Reclamation is a spin off of Lyra Studio's game Underlight. The game is based on the concept of pure interaction without all the npcs' you find in other mmo's. Only thing AI controlled are the mobs (Less the GM controlled mobs that run amok in game from time to time attacking players).  The entire game is based on the player. controlled and ran.

"Now here is where it gets bad. Within Underlight (or UL as the players call it)  the game takes literal MONTHS and YEARS for advancement. The game is based on orbits (same as levels) and even 10 levels, you have to seek out a player controlled teacher for a long, tedious and drawn out "quest" to attain a scrap of xp that puts you over the top to level 10. (or 20, 30 etc)."

***I am not sure what you mean by Months and Years for advancement.  For how much advancement, for what kinds of advancement?  I know that it is certainly possible to plat several arts in a single week, or even gain 1st sphere (the term for reaching level 10) in a week, and 2nd in another.  When compared to another game, like EQ, I would say that the length of time it takes to get to the high levels is directly related to how much time you put in.  And you can certainly get to the 60th level as fast, faster, or slower than you might in another game, it's all dependent on you.  However, I need to mention that the levels no longer stop on the 9's as they used to, requiring quests to move onto the 10th.  This has been removed in favor of smaller quests for each art level (or even up to 5 levels at a time for arts).  And you can progress in orbits as far as you want without any quests.  Spheres this time in Reclamation will be a separate, optional form of advancement.***  

"Within this system, they players are forced to adhere to strict guidelines. If they give a quest thats too easy deemed by the Game Master staff, not only will the player who quested loose their newly achieved orbit and have to request all over again, but the player teacher is stripped of their ability to teach others (the ability is actually a game mechanic). The same rules apply to arts (spells) both with leveling them AND learning them. This makes for a very tedious and mundane learning system even though it is unique."

***As Gerroz said, and this gives me a good opportunity to point out the uniqueness in the system, the guidelines are as loose as they can be.  Gerroz's character is one of our resident 'bad guys' and often his quests reflect this.  He uses his teacher status as a way to further his goals and the likeminded goals of his students, usually in secrecy.  He uses his station as a way to promote roleplaying and promote action.  This may not be the case for all teachers, and this style may not suit all players.  Variety is the spice of life and the same is true in UL.  I think that maybe you just didn't find a teacher suitable to your style but I assure you there are many that are.  In Reclamation everyone will start off with the ability to plat each other's arts up to level 19.  Not everyone will, but this will add even more variety and possibilities.***

"Now within Underlight, relationships are made. Friendships, etc. However most of the population are "elitists". They expect you to learn fast, not break any rules, and understand everything from the beginning. Unlike a newbie area with most mmo's that some people will hang out in and help, within UL there are none. If you are not a member of a "Cliche" or have someone in game that knows you, you're SoL. Yes, people say "Oh, you're new?" stay two minutes and leave quickly to avoid explaining the game under the pretense of "having to go do something".

***It's unfortunate you've had this kind of experience.  Not everyone is like this, but I will admit that some are. ***

"On to a major flaw within the system. What I could call no less then a heavy hand of the GM staff. I have read on the player boards as well seen ingame that the staff within UL are bias and without a doubt. I have seen favoritism within the GM's ingame characters (known as elders). And what should happen if you need something to learn from them? They tell you to seek out another teacher. apparently the GM toons are so elite that "questing" a new player is beneath them.  The GM's and their toons are within the game to help old players and their pets."

***I won't bother to comment exhaustively on percieved favoritism by the GM's, naturally you know where I would stand on that.  From the outside it can look like favoritism, but from the inside it's clear there is, in most circumstances, none.  However, it is a drawback of this older system that the GM's must spend most of their time catering to high level players.  There is no other way for them to advance so that leaves no other option but to limit the questing of new players to the player teachers.  This is something we've solved in Reclamation, one by allowing all players to quest each other up to orbit 19 for arts.  Second with a plan to have paid GM staff who will have more dedicated time to the game.  And third we are looking at the possibility of allowing a leap frog effect with teaching.  Before I explain that more there will have to be much more discussion on it.***

"With all this said, all these people that make Underlight, run it, and play it will be migrating once Reclamation is out. Nothing will change except the graphics and a few well placed game functions. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what Reclamation will be about. Play WoW, DAoC, MxO, EQ II, or what ever you prefer but avoid this game like the plague. "

***The people that made and work on Underlight are some of the most dedicated and caring people I know.  It is hard to believe sometimes, but they are doing the best they can as volunteers with an independent developer.  Cookie cutter games are all well and good, and they capitalize on a similar formula in a new setting.  What they lack is originality, creativity, roleplaying, and often times are merely single player games set in a persistent world.  I like some of them even.  Underlight was and still is a learning process, for coming up on 7 years we've lived and run an MMO and we do know the things that need to change, the things that worked.  From gameplay to graphics to combat to management to procedures. All of this is evolutionary and the things that can't be fixed right now in UL that need to be, will be in Reclamation.  You can help us make it better if you like the concept and want a true roleplaying game, or not.  I hope you choose to help us.***

Lyra-Stone
Lyra Studios, LLC
http://reclamationgame.com
http://underlight.com

Both sides make good points. I've seen the up side and down side from Lyra on pretty much all aspects. Rather then get into a deep and rather heated topic, I'll just say this..

If it interests you, try it. Don't like it, quit. Plenty of other things out there if it doesn't suit your fancy.

Not saying that i agree with anyone here.

As a player you are normal to feel resentment sometimes and its normal that you will see something that you will not agree with.

But as an old player of UL (( Joshua Mandrake )) i am not afraid to say who i was and sometime if i can get a chance to get back in but i just had a little baby boy, can't always do what one wants so family is very important for me atm.... anyways...

When someone get burn in UL the ritual seems to always be takei t out on the GM's this to me seems to be a good example of what happen, someone got burn and decided to bring it over to this forum.( i know i had my share of rants in the past too)

When i say someone got burn is that they probebly did something that was against the rules and prolly did it for a long time nd finaly got caught. You know the expression if someone doesn't get caught on the first time it only encourages them to keep on doing it. (( luckly i was caught shoplifting at the age of 4 with bubblegum in me pockets !!!))

But he does have a few good points.

Lets see what Stone said here about it.

-------------

"Now here is where it gets bad. Within Underlight (or UL as the players call it)  the game takes literal MONTHS and YEARS for advancement. The game is based on orbits (same as levels) and even 10 levels, you have to seek out a player controlled teacher for a long, tedious and drawn out "quest" to attain a scrap of xp that puts you over the top to level 10. (or 20, 30 etc)."

***I am not sure what you mean by Months and Years for advancement.  For how much advancement, for what kinds of advancement?  I know that it is certainly possible to plat several arts in a single week, or even gain 1st sphere (the term for reaching level 10) in a week, and 2nd in another.  When compared to another game, like EQ, I would say that the length of time it takes to get to the high levels is directly related to how much time you put in.  And you can certainly get to the 60th level as fast, faster, or slower than you might in another game, it's all dependent on you.  However, I need to mention that the levels no longer stop on the 9's as they used to, requiring quests to move onto the 10th.  This has been removed in favor of smaller quests for each art level (or even up to 5 levels at a time for arts).  And you can progress in orbits as far as you want without any quests.  Spheres this time in Reclamation will be a separate, optional form of advancement.***

---------------

Alright Stone i will challenge you on this.

Forge Talismen usually took nearly a year + to get a plat or get a task.

Sphere 7th, well when i was playing after 2 years of being sphere 6! The GM's were always relunctent into giving a 7th sphere quest, they "had" to discuss it with other GM's. As if to see if i deserve it??

So yes maybe i am some kind of problem child or there must be an explanation to all of this, but the lack of advancement kinda killed my wanting to roleplay at the time as well.

It wasen't the lack of asking the GM's for the task it was the lack of receiving a straight answer. so maybe this oldplayer69 had similar experience as i did in UL. And i am glad we are airing this out here, hopefully we won't see these kinds of problem occure in Reclamation!

thanks

and see ya soon

Bitching about not getting seventh sphere tasks seems rather pointless to me, we all know that seventh sphere wasn't something that they had catered for as they only had new learnables up to Sixth, Now if they handed out the seventh spheres, then you all would bitch that they had nothing new to give you.
So which was the better choice? make seventh sphere nearly unatainable granting to a select few? or handing out seventh sphere and having you all bitch like women because of no arts? not to mention all the lower sphere dreamers bitching about too many seventh sphere dreamers they couldn't beat. Though I know a few sixth sphere dreamers that if they got seventh sphere would have been like XP fairies hehe.
They were limited by the game and what they could and couldn't do as far as coding was concerned. I prefer that they focused their efforts on Reclamation than submit to all the whiny arses.
Now josh I certainly dont mean to insult you, as I have the upmost respect for both you as a player and your character. but you see my point I hope.
anyways Merry Xmas to you all.

Yours Jeremy

Ok, either you all are blind or simply not realizing certain things.

ONE, advancement does take a long time. in one month you can get to 2nd sphere. You advance any faster and people will throw a bitch fit. I have seen it, witnessed it, and exsperianced it. The reason is "well i had to wait years to advance, so should they." WRONG! Yea it took us older players years but that doesn't mean we have to hold new players back simply on the grounds of we want to so we will.

I can name two caracters (Neopetolmus and Hikari X) that advanced quickly and it caused a "OMG favortism! Unfair!!) So I am sorry to say to anyone that claims advancement is open in Underlight, they are full of it. If you advance quickly exspect alot of shit, bitching, pissing, and moaning from the player base in general. 

---

Bitching about not getting seventh sphere tasks seems rather pointless to me...

---

Hey Rikku:

The GMs didn't respond to his ideas in-game.

Joshua Mandrake 1; Lyra & Rikku 0.

So you would prefer I use my first and last name with all my personal information Gerroz? And btw, I'm FEMALE. If you would take a brief moment to look at my user info you would know that.

As far as the post, I said what I have to say. I have no need to make a follow up comment to justify anything about my opinions. Not only my post but a few others made my point.

I stand by what I said. Want more proof, go to the underlight forum sight. Plenty of proof there. You can catch a glimpse of what the players are like just by reading the forums.   

He or she, matters little to me

I am merely pointing out the obvious hypocracy here, since you say people shouldn't bother with this game, yet you think it is worth enough time to make long posts about it, and in addition you hide your identity. Could make people suspect that you just dont want others to know who you are, while still speaking ill words about Lyra and their games so you can get away unscratched.

I am not trying to attack you here, but you clearly feel the need to defend yourself

I've always thought the greatest compliment to a game is rendered when it is taken personally.

With a player-base that is small (relative to most MMOGs) personal grievances can cause a lot more friction. Favoritism between GMs and players probably occurs in most games, but in close-knit communities is 1) more easily exposed and 2) more highly criticized. Of course, this is not to say it is acceptable--only unavoidable.

I too am an "oldplayer".. and the poster does have some valid points.  However, from the information I have read on Redemption, it seems that Lyra have recognised the issues.. particularly with levelling..  and I look forward to seeing the final product .  One of the problems I always had was due to the fact that I am Australian..  and it was very hard to find a teacher around at my odd play times.  Hopefully, the new scheme of things will make life easier for non-yanks :)

Underlight is STILL the only true role-playing game.  I learnt a LOT about RP when I played and I still miss the great times we had then.  I got close to a lot of the folk in UL then and I still miss them like crazy!

CONGRATS ON THE BABY JOSHUA!!!! 

I intend to watch this site like a hawk...  hmm that reminds me of my old UL Teacher - Kestrel..  wonder where she is these days.

*waves to any old friends who may be still around*  MISS YOU ALL!!

Mecaza

First off I'd like to say, "You don't know what you're talking about. Reclamation != Underlight."

Then I'd like to quote, "Play WoW, DAoC, MxO, EQ II, or what ever you prefer but avoid this game like the plague."

Those games all suck. They're a suckfest.

I hate dungeon and dragon games with a burning passion, they're all the same and they're all boring. There is no real time combat, there is no actual roleplaying, and they're just plain boring.

If your idea of fun is:
You hit a giant rat for 5 points of damage!
A giant rat hit YOU for 6 points of damage!
You hit a giant rat for 11 points of damage!
You have slain a giant rat!

Then go ahead and play WOW or EQ or whatever.

But if you'd rather fight someone in a place where things are based more on your skill as a gamer then I'd be willing to bet that Reclamation will be a better game then all of those games put together (even though if you put all those games together you'd still pretty much have the same game).

Dice are for betting money and they should only have 6 sides, if you use them for a video game the game will suck.

While I'm at it- card battle games suck and there should never be another card battle game ever again (same with dice games, maybe if its a real dice game not that dungeons and dragons crap).

"ARGH! SNAKE EYES!"

www.ReclamationGame.com is the official website.

For a vauge idea of what Reclamation will feel like www.Underlight.com might help... Or it might not, they definitely won't be the same but I think it might have some of the same feel... Maybe, I haven't gotten to play yet. = (

Thanks Mec :-)

little bugger been keeping me awake but its all whorth it :-)