Originally posted by Gruug

Originally posted by Elitekill4

I doubt this, sirs.

I've found that F2P games can do just as well.

 Except for one minor detail....there is no such thing as an actually "FREE" f2p game out there. All games have a payment model. If you or anyone else pays, it isn't free to play.

 Aye, it's misleading. It is really free to try.

Edit: GW's payment model is not free to play. You have to think of the payment model just like any other video game out there, you buy it then play forever.

My bad on the PvP kit... so minus $19.99 on what I said.

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Originally posted by Frostbite05

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Originally posted by Elitekill4
I doubt this, sirs.
I've found that F2P games can do just as well.

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The only f2p games that have the same quality as a p2p are the ones that started off at a p2p but changed so that you can essentially play the game without spending a dime but eventually subbing.

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Exactly. And those games had capital to spend on development based on planned box sales, meaning their development was not the development of a free to play game.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

My bad on the PvP kit... so minus $19.99 on what I said.

yeah but like I said, the only thing you actually need to have a fulfilling experience in GW is the game(s) themselves. The (4) costumes aren't needed, and they're completely fluff, and the unlock packs are also not needed. Bc everything in the game is unlockable by playing. For example, the pet unlock pack just unlocks all the pets for your use...or you can do it the more fun/interesting way and charm the animals that you want to use. Same goes for the skill unlock packs, you get the skills in game, and for a pvp only character you unlock skills by trading in balthazar faction which you get from pvp'ing. That's no different from any other game, where you accomplish things by playing. They only made it more accessible for people who would prefer to get the stuff the easy way. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to you that they have this, especially when it's not a necessity. I mean honestly, I don't know anyone who actually did buy all the unlock packs, why? because they didn't need them.

Building games for the P2P market may not always result in better quality, but the converse is much more often true: games built to be F2P/for the F2P market almost always suck.

And DDO, LoTRO, and others that have recently gone "F2P" (which is a joke, a very misleading term) were not built with F2P in mind. Or they'd have never been funded.

I believe that such generalization is unfounded. Not all P2P are better than F2P or not all F2P are worse than P2P.

Better quality? Not sure. I think they have a higher quality, but I might be wrong. The important point is however: the whole system of "he who pays wins, he who pays not loses" is something I despise.

Guild Wars had Alliance Battles....which you made a group of four and entered the battlefield on a large map that was as large as UT2004 Onslaught maps. In this battlefield, the game became objective. You were met with two other teams of four and it was a 12vs12 in 6 teams of four roaming the map. 

The object of Alliance Battle was really to win enough to acquire territory for Luxon or Kurzich Factions. Players tried to capture  7 shrines. These Shrines gave one point to the team that held them every second. Capturing a Shrine generated NPCs which you could take with you...Killing a Player gave the team 3 points, Killing an NPC gave 1 point. The object was to score 500 points before the other team or hold all 7 shrines for 1 minute. 

If you were a new player to Guild Wars (I played since released)

I paid $50 for the base game.

I paid $50 for each expansion (bought during release)

I then bought 4 character slots ($10 each)

I also bought 4 storage panels ($7.50 each on sale)) 

If you want to be toe to toe with everyone in PvP you will have to buy the skill unlocks for each of the packs...That will cost 40 - 50 for each game....or you can play for months and unlock all skills yourself through just simple PvPing...or just follow a guide below :) 

Today, you can get a deal in some places for $50 - $60 for Guild Wars Trilogy and Eye of the North. Then you can unlock things in PvP. You see to be decent in PvP you have to experiment and learn a lot on how the skills work. Buying the unlock packs do not teach you anything. The best approach is to pretty much unlock 8 skills to a build you are working on, like a nuking or healing build and then work on unlocking Runes and Weapons Mods revolving around those builds....Then take that build all the way and start unlocking skills in that first major profession you are playing.

In defense to ArenaNet. One reason they made the in-Game Store is because many people demanded to be able to buy extra storage space and character slots. They would literally buy new Guild Wars accounts for $50 and then have to unlock things. Also not everyone wanted to pretty much use 2 instances of GW to be able to trade items. 

I run with 12 character slots for 10 characters, all PvE, one per class...and 2 PvE characters. My main PvP character just celebrated her 5th birthday :) 

Originally posted by Rockgod99
F2p games have gotten better. Games like Atlantica, Perfect World, Runes of Magic, Allods, Aika are really good actually. Add I'n the B2p products like Guild wars and new hybrids DDO, lotro, EQ2x it's no longer a huge drop I'n quality when playing f2p.

I'll agree, these games are of high quality however they still have the issue of the gameplay being designed around their cash shops to encourage players to purchase from them which I find most P2P games don't have.

In the worst of them (i.e. ROM) it is most certainly B2W, at least from a PVP perspective.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Rockgod99
F2p games have gotten better. Games like Atlantica, Perfect World, Runes of Magic, Allods, Aika are really good actually. Add I'n the B2p products like Guild wars and new hybrids DDO, lotro, EQ2x it's no longer a huge drop I'n quality when playing f2p.

I'll agree, these games are of high quality however they still have the issue of the gameplay being designed around their cash shops to encourage players to purchase from them which I find most P2P games don't have.

In the worst of them (i.e. ROM) it is most certainly B2W, at least from a PVP perspective.

While RoM and Allods are B2W games, they are still as good gameplay wise as most P2Ps and you don't HAVE to pay. You can pay at your own leisure instead of having to do it on a certain day every month. You also get to play the game first to test the game for free to see if you even like it. Most P2Ps don't come with demos till months after release, so the only way to test is to buy the game unless a friend of yours bought the game and they are willing to let you play thier account. 

i agree free to play games are a scam. they also seem to be developed for pre teens and maybe teens. ive tried several of them and the only one i was impressed by was allods before they fucked it up with the cash shop and everyone quit. seriously though, like the others said, free to play = huge dependance on cash shop.

i would much much much rather just pay my $15 a month and have a game with NO cash shop what so ever. cash shops are just sketchy to me and too many mmos now a days have them.

and unfortunately, with the success turbine is having i see ALOT of mmos going in this direction. which pretty much for me, means im nearing the end of my mmo career :P

world of tanks and you will have alot of fun lads :p 

and who are we to call out the quality of a game? I for one know that world of warcraft is a high quality game but I dont like it (anymore). I know that Fallen earth is a low budget game that has less quality than world of warcraft but the game is so alot of fun for me. 

Originally posted by Thomas2006

With the very small exception that YOU do not have to pay to play the game. You can fully choose to not pay anything and still play the game. You might miss out on things and not have access to some things. But you are still not paying anything to PLAY the game. So in that sense it is indeed Free 2 Play.

You are thinking that FREE means you get access to everything. That you are getting a FREE GAME. Nowhere does it state that they are giving you are FREE GAME.  It CLEARLY states Free 2 PLAY.

This.

No F2P game makes you pay one shiney dime to play... hence the term 'Free to Play'. You can pay if you choose to give yourself an advantange but this is totally optional and up to the individual's play style. I've played and enjoyed many F2P titles without spending a dime. Whether you pay or not is up to you.

Most F2P games that have come out in the last few years have been of equal quality of most of the P2P games that have come out in that same time. Of course when you look at the totally craptastic P2P games that have been released in the last few years F2P may even have surpassed them in both content and quality.

Bren

Most F2P games are capable of keeping up with P2P games. They just dont tend to update as much. Look at Runes Of Magic, Adventure Quest and Runescape (Bad graphics but pretty cool gameplay).

Originally posted by Karesh

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Elitekill4

Originally posted by Nicirin

Hardly... F2P maybe has all the similar content ect... which is fine. You must also understand that with F2P you will not be able to participate in end game without paying money... which is retarded. I would way rather pay monthly for something I know is good than pay at the end of the game to actually have fun playing end game.

GW is the only F2P game that was awesome but the frequency of the expansions was kindof sickening but made sense. Game companies have to make money some how guys. P2P will always be the best games IMO. Some are trash but some are real winners

Except that PvP in GW is actually better than most F2P games despite it only being 8v8 sessions (edit; although it's B2P the trilogy doesn't cost that much so it's pretty much nearly F2P if you don't buy the cosmetic items from the Arenanet online game store). I don't understand how 100 against 100 makes good PvP, if it's the button-mashing type PvP then it's still really bad.

8v8... is describing a small map in a FPS game.  Not PvP in a MMO.

As for GW, coming along now - near EoL - yes, the costs are less.

GW Trilogy - $39.99

GW Eye of the North - $19.99 to $29.99 (it's on sale right now)

GW Bonus Mission Pack - $9.99

GW PvP Access Kit - $19.99

Two upgrades $4.99 a pop.

Seven unlock packs at $9.99 a pop.

Four costumes at $6.99 a pop.

Several services ranging from $9.99 to $14.99.

So excluding the services, you would be looking at $197.83...

But in comparison to somebody wanting to get into WoW:

WoW BattleChest - $29.99

WoW Lich King - $29.99

WoW Cataclysm - $39.99

So you would be at $99.97 and be able to play for six months in comparison...

Of course, GW would likely add additional items... so you might be able to squeeze out another month or two when all is said and done.

Don't even pull that, you make it sound like it costs $197.83 just to play GW. Not even close. I've played GW for 3 years, only bought the 3 GW games and the expansion nothing more, and I've had no problem. You make it sound like you have to buy all that to get the full game, which isn't true. those unlock packs are meant for people who just don't want to work for stuff. You can easily unlock everything from those packs by playing the game. The costumes aren't needed, and theres only 4 of them anyway. The "services" you mention are character slots and bank space, which you don't need bc you already have plenty. There's no reason to buy the pvp access kit unless that's all you want. If you buy the game, then you have no need to but the kit bc pvp is included.

So let's see, GW trilogy=39.99

        GW Xpac: EotN=19.99 (on sale)

                               total= around $60.

so $60 total, for as long as you like. (If a new game was to come out, it would be optional)

 

So then $99.97 for WoW (not to mention all the sub fees).

I think GW still kicks the crap out of WoW if your comparing how much you have to spend to get a full experience.

 Not to take away from the thread....  Why buy the " The Trilogy" 39.99 when you can get " The Complete Collection" for the same price or cheaper.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars:_The_Complete_Collection   

P2P games are best suited by offering me content that will challenge my gameplay and keep me entertained.  The more I play, the longer I subscribe so it works best when those games continually offer me activites to engage in.

F2P games are best suited by making gameplay lacking in an attempt to encourage me to purchase solutions from a cash shop.  The design process revolves around making gameplay suffer in order to make money.  It just doens't give the impression of a quality experience to me when obstacles are artificial in this way and force me look outside of gameplay to resolve problems.  I prefer obstacles to be in game and not in a cash shop.  I don't want developers thinking of ways to inconvience my gameplay further when cash shop sales decline. 

I could care less about the condition and polish of f2p vs p2p, because this issue is far more important to me personally. 

5 Years ago... the difference was a gulf. 3 Years ago the gap was still very wide. Last year it closed to a small distance. This year I've played several f2p games that are nearly as polished as wow and far more polished than many of the p2p games that have come out recently.

Functionally there isn't much difference at this point in content or quality. Most F2P don't get the large expansions that P2P games get, however they seem to get just about the same amount of content over time.

The early f2p games were nightmarish cash shops and some of the new ones are too... but increasingly there are more and more f2p games that you can skip the cash shop without any real issue or they provide in game ways of getting cash shop items without spending real world money (quest rewards, etc.) which make them much more viable and less "pushed" on you.

If you really consider how much money you spend on the average p2p mmo over a year and you convert that into cash shop money for a f2p you end up setup pretty good ($14.95*12=$179.40). The one nice thing about f2p games is that you aren't STUCK paying a sub... you feel less obligation. If you feel like playing you play, if not there is no "oh god i paid for this I should at least get my money's worth." If you got currency from the cash shop it'll be there when you come back.

For hardcore raiders, I would say p2p is still the better option. For casual players and most everyone else who can control their spending, f2p is increasingly the better option.

Edit: Note-- I'm 33, I've been doing MMOs since LOK (Kesmai on AOL). I'm fully aware of what the point of cash shops are and that people with no impulse control end up spending more money than they can afford or a P2P would cost... (but that never happens outside games right?), however the recent generations of f2p games don't require those expenditures as they once did and the production quality is now generally on par with p2p games. I'm a light buyer for f2p games, some are heavy buyers. It works better for me. YMMV.

Edit2: Also of note, I don't have a complex about people potentially being better than me either. So if someone goes out and spends $8000 and has a character that is better than mine, I really couldn't care. Some people can't handle the thought of that and if thats your game style then f2p definitely won't suit you because they'll never be a completely level playing field (not that p2p is either, it just appears to be on the surface.)

Edit3: Honestly, the people going on about the item shop stuff here... have you honestly played any of the newer f2p games recently? They are not the thing you are talking about... what you're talking about is what I saw 3-5 years ago. It's really not so much that way anymore (well with a few exceptions, allods for example blew their game up... although they're making a push to fix that now. Good example of what happens when greed exceeds game play.)

No offense, but one of the previous posters is far more correct: the point of F2P gameplay is to get you to spend money, or, make you suffer for not spending the money, because that is the only way these companies make money. It is really no more complicated than that.

For P2P, you pay your money, and there it is. The company can then work on adding game content and keeping the players happy, and playing, instead of dreaming up the next load of items for the Cash Shop.

Maybe it is because I am older, or because I don't mind paying the sub fee, but all the F2P games and their money making game mechanics can go suck it.

Originally posted by Clubmaster22

F2P is a scam, period. If you don't use the itemshops you're screwed fast and if you give in, you end up paying more than for any P2P-Game. Scam.

i take it you have no idea what a scam actually is.