Originally posted by MurlockDance

Originally posted by Araiya

Were this a boredom curve list, then FFXI would deserve to be on it.

Having seen this graphic change over and over and over in its years of being handed down on the internet, I remember the days when Anarchy Online occupied the slot that EVE did, and when EVE arrived, it was bumped down to where POTBS is.

When choosing a race can result in your character being less successful... you know you're on Rubi-Ka.

There are non-subtle differences between a Nanomage Enforcer and an Atrox Enforcer. A player that understands the system knows how to overcome much of the differences, but one can easily gimp a character in AO, thanks to the improvement points system. What's green (cheap) to an Atrox can be deep blue (bloody expensive!) to a nanomage, and make all the difference in what and how much one can improve (talk about IP Starvation)!

This post made me laugh. So true, so true!

I like the possibilty of gimping a character in some ways. Some of my favourite MMO memories are of gimped characters I made. If you learn to 'suffer' through the game, they can generate some incredible experiences. I put suffer in quotes because it was still so fun.

Do you ever play non-cookiee cutter specs? I do.

FFXI was my starter MMO and couldn't say it had a huge learning curve. I played quite a few of the FF's back to nintendo and had an idea of how the party/dps/combo system worked. The crafting on another hand...with shop, times, moon times, crystals and repeated failures I found that more challenging than leveling.

I tried some off the wall combo's such as WAR/RNG and BLM/NIN. But the ZOMG OP elitists forced me to change back to the normal combos if I wanted to party or do quests in the group. Everything had to be cookee cutter and absolutely perfect in order to maximize BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

Good posts.

I miss the dunes =(

Originally posted by dadown

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I would throw in AC1 in there.  Except for Eve it is far more complex than any of the others and a much better game except for the graphics and the inability to control the bots.

Not sure what you mean here as the graphics are pretty much spot on and the "Bots" [i assume you mean avatar] is easy to controll?

The AC1 graphics are over 10 years old and it shows. Same thing with the UI which is outside the 3D box instead of being overlaid like all modern games are. I'm guessing the 'bots' refers to the script-driven PCs that provide bufs or buy and sell stuff.

If AC1 implemented the graphics and UI of AC2 and added a built-in auction house, i would still be a contender. I'm still wondering why Turbine hasn't given it the F2P treatment like they did for DDO and LOTRO.

 

 The reason for AC1 not going F2P , because they can't its simple, they would need a new engine the way the engine is coded it can't.. Because if they could, it would have been f2p before DDO. ... or atleast before LOTR..

Originally posted by Darkcrystal

Originally posted by dadown

Originally posted by HYPERI0N

Originally posted by Ozmodan

I would throw in AC1 in there.  Except for Eve it is far more complex than any of the others and a much better game except for the graphics and the inability to control the bots.

Not sure what you mean here as the graphics are pretty much spot on and the "Bots" [i assume you mean avatar] is easy to controll?

The AC1 graphics are over 10 years old and it shows. Same thing with the UI which is outside the 3D box instead of being overlaid like all modern games are. I'm guessing the 'bots' refers to the script-driven PCs that provide bufs or buy and sell stuff.

If AC1 implemented the graphics and UI of AC2 and added a built-in auction house, i would still be a contender. I'm still wondering why Turbine hasn't given it the F2P treatment like they did for DDO and LOTRO.

 

 The reason for AC1 not going F2P , because they can't its simple, they would need a new engine the way the engine is coded it can't.. Because if they could, it would have been f2p before DDO. ... or atleast before LOTR..

Correct. The way the AC engine is coded, it would take a major investment of time(money) to upgrade it. It might actually be easier to just write a new one, using some of the middle ware tools that exist now. But I seriously doubt that Turbine is going to be allowed to divert their resources to that type of project.  

Now that Warner Bro's own them, I suspect they will milk their existing IP's to the greatest extent possible,  and then start staff cuts and other such to make their quarterly reports look sweet.  Thats been SOP with WB for a long time.

Come on. That's total crap. Eve is not even remotely hard. Someone wrote that years ago and it just stuck because the word people are really looking for is "BORING." Nobody will say boring though, because if you do, then a mass of Ayn Rand reading Fountainhead-spewing nerdrage artists will swarm you and beat you down for criticizing the only game they have the patience to play.

Eve is probably the greatest game ever, ON PAPER, and is boring in real play. Once you use the automated tools to plan out your career, you just freaking wait and bide your time until your skills are finished. HARD? Hadly.

A game with a steep learning curve is Anarchy Online. Look it up and get some kleenex because you're going to need it for the tears you'll be shedding as you erase your first character because, yes, you can gimp them forever. haha.

Originally posted by Earley

Come on. That's total crap. Eve is not even remotely hard. Someone wrote that years ago and it just stuck because the word people are really looking for is "BORING." Nobody will say boring though, because if you do, then a mass of Ayn Rand reading Fountainhead-spewing nerdrage artists will swarm you and beat you down for criticizing the only game they have the patience to play.

Eve is probably the greatest game ever, ON PAPER, and is boring in real play. Once you use the automated tools to plan out your career, you just freaking wait and bide your time until your skills are finished. HARD? Hadly.

 

Eve is much more than figuring out skills with Evemon or using Fitting tool.

Your waiting on skills comment alone proves you know nothing about the game passed a trial.

If i posted about AO saying that the game was EZmode because in two weeks all i did was run quests and watch my character attack mobs you would have a fucking heart attack and flame the shit out of me.

Both games are much deeper than their initial experiences.

Originally posted by Earley

Come on. That's total crap. Eve is not even remotely hard. Someone wrote that years ago and it just stuck because the word people are really looking for is "BORING." Nobody will say boring though, because if you do, then a mass of Ayn Rand reading Fountainhead-spewing nerdrage artists will swarm you and beat you down for criticizing the only game they have the patience to play.

Eve is probably the greatest game ever, ON PAPER, and is boring in real play. Once you use the automated tools to plan out your career, you just freaking wait and bide your time until your skills are finished. HARD? Hadly.

A game with a steep learning curve is Anarchy Online. Look it up and get some kleenex because you're going to need it for the tears you'll be shedding as you erase your first character because, yes, you can gimp them forever. haha.

EVE isn't hard? I guess you haven't really played it. Even with the tutorial, it's not easy to figure out. It takes tons of time to plan things, invest in them, getting them going, following through with them, and then hopefully getting the ISK you were expecting out of ventures in the first place. The skill system part of EVE is a minority of what EVE is about: it takes up about 1% of the actual gameplay.

AO is hard too, especially in the days before things were documented. I gimped my first few characters. It made me laugh though, not cry. Ah those were the good days ^^

Originally posted by Earley

Come on. That's total crap. Eve is not even remotely hard. Someone wrote that years ago and it just stuck because the word people are really looking for is "BORING." Nobody will say boring though, because if you do, then a mass of Ayn Rand reading Fountainhead-spewing nerdrage artists will swarm you and beat you down for criticizing the only game they have the patience to play.

Eve is probably the greatest game ever, ON PAPER, and is boring in real play. Once you use the automated tools to plan out your career, you just freaking wait and bide your time until your skills are finished. HARD? Hadly.

A game with a steep learning curve is Anarchy Online. Look it up and get some kleenex because you're going to need it for the tears you'll be shedding as you erase your first character because, yes, you can gimp them forever. haha.

I've played AO(shudders in horror at memory of the first month of launch...). It turned out rather well for having one of the worst launches in MMO history.  But the ability to ruin ones character is a design flaw, not a "feature".  It demonstrates that not enough thought and planning was invested in key design elements. Unless it was done on purpose, which is an entirely different *serious* problem.

Having played EVE for around 4.5 years now, I can tell you that learning to play it *well* does have a rather steep learning curve.  As for the Randian sneer, thats to be expected from a certain ideology(that is at the root of our current dismal situation).

It shouldn't take vast amounts of patience and toleration to play a "game*(unless one is a masocist). To me, games are entertainment, they shouldn't be a second job(which one is paying for on top of that... ^^).

I enjoy EVE because of its extreme learning curve...it isn't easy to learn. However, there are plenty of things to do in the game that don't require much knowledge of the game. EvE has so much to offer players that a lot of players rarely take advantage of just a little of what EVE has to offer. 

On the other side of the coin, I also like easy simple games that I can just jump into and start killing stuff. Hence, I usually play EvE and a mindless casual game.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Earley

Come on. That's total crap. Eve is not even remotely hard. Someone wrote that years ago and it just stuck because the word people are really looking for is "BORING." Nobody will say boring though, because if you do, then a mass of Ayn Rand reading Fountainhead-spewing nerdrage artists will swarm you and beat you down for criticizing the only game they have the patience to play.

Eve is probably the greatest game ever, ON PAPER, and is boring in real play. Once you use the automated tools to plan out your career, you just freaking wait and bide your time until your skills are finished. HARD? Hadly.

A game with a steep learning curve is Anarchy Online. Look it up and get some kleenex because you're going to need it for the tears you'll be shedding as you erase your first character because, yes, you can gimp them forever. haha.

I've played AO(shudders in horror at memory of the first month of launch...). It turned out rather well for having one of the worst launches in MMO history.  But the ability to ruin ones character is a design flaw, not a "feature".  It demonstrates that not enough thought and planning was invested in key design elements. Unless it was done on purpose, which is an entirely different *serious* problem.

Having played EVE for around 4.5 years now, I can tell you that learning to play it *well* does have a rather steep learning curve.  As for the Randian sneer, thats to be expected from a certain ideology(that is at the root of our current dismal situation).

It shouldn't take vast amounts of patience and toleration to play a "game*(unless one is a masocist). To me, games are entertainment, they shouldn't be a second job(which one is paying for on top of that... ^^).

EVE appeals to people that really want to play a real life simulator but in a sci-fi setting. This is why every xpac pushes eve close and closer to full sci-fi epic simulation.

Problem is when someone just looking for a game to play comes to eve. It just doesn't hold up to that crowd.

Certain things that you have access to as a player looking for just a game are repeptitive and kinda bland or very time consuming due to downtime. Shit like missions, grinding standing or even scanning for combat sites can become really boring if that all you can invest in.

It's the reason the game has 350k+ Accounts and not a million+.

I'll never understand how worked up people get over these lists. They always assume it's one of three things: An attack/misrepresentation on their favorite game, praise for games long gone (like they should still be around,) or a slight because a favorite game was left off the list. It's a freaking discussion. End of story.

I agree with almost everything on this list and what I disagree with is based on my own opinions from playing games the author may or may not have played (or had a different experience.) Eve should be number one simply because it IS a hard game to both get into and master. Any game that necessitated the formation of teaching guilds/corps that still can't teach you everything is hard. Sometimes hard is a good thing. I play games to enjoy myself and I do enjoy thinking. I also play Bejeweled Blitz when I want to zone out and even that has a learning curve. 

Personally, I don't think Darkfall or PotBS need to be on the list. Pirates because I enjoy playing games like Age of Sail so the ship combat made sense to me. Darkfall because... well, I tried it and felt like a kid dropped into deep water with the shore 8 feet away. Once you tread water you can get out easily. You just need to avoid the snapping turtles and leeches. I do think AO should be on the list for many of the reasons listed above. It still has a fairly steep learning curve and if it got some attention from Funcom I might still be playing it. I think Ryzom comes close to SWG with the learning curve, but I enjoyed SWG far more. I mention SWG, and the list rightfully does too, because the pre-NGE gameplay is part of MMO history much like when gearheads talk about cars. The '68 Corvette is in no way the same car is it today, but doesn't mean you can't reminisce.

^ See that? Those are opinions based on my own preferences and gameplay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

Originally posted by SBFord

The List this week focuses on our favorite MMOs and the learning curves employed. How long it takes a player to pick up and play a game largely determines how long their tenure will be. Find out which games MMORPG.com's Bill Muphy thinks make it tough on the newest players and then add your thoughts on the forums!

Last week signaled the launch of Square Enix’s Final Fantasy XIV. As anyone who once wandered around in FFXI can attest, Square Enix’s MMOs aren’t exactly known for their adherence to the “way things are done” in MMO land. The forums and internet in general are abuzz with people arguing and taking their stands on whether or not FFXIV is any good. The truth of the matter is, a big wall FFXIV might have working against it is the fact that it’s not adhering to many of the gameplay facets that your everyday player is used to. Say for example the only MMO you have any knowledge of is WoW. Are you going to have an easy time picking up FFXIV and jumping right on in? Probably not.

Read more of The List.

 God I love this picture, Congrats !!  Welldone!!!!

what about NeoCron? they had a learning curve to it as well fairly hard one at that becuase you couldn't go and trust anyone, it was like UO but in the future (with 3d)... and yes you could die in that and never get your stuff back...

Settle dwn everyone. The author of this obviously does not know his mmorpgs. 

Battlefield Europe: World War 2 Online had a completely rediculous learning curve too.   Had to run 56 minutes just be shot by a guy with a machine gun in a bush.  Wow.

learning curve is nothing to be proud of, it just shows bad design.

Originally posted by trugamer

learning curve is nothing to be proud of, it just shows bad design.

Originally posted by trugamer

learning curve is nothing to be proud of, it just shows bad design.

 Whatever you say, buddy.

Originally posted by trugamer

learning curve is nothing to be proud of, it just shows bad design.

yup, lets just make a game where you log on and do nothing, actually why even have to log on in that case, that would just be to confusing.  Bad game design.

Originally posted by Tyrantas

Originally posted by Kuro1n

Id say l2s curve is quite extreme as well, for sure not the worst but not far from it.

 

 

Rofl, are u serious ? Any retard can play l2 and even play it good. My naber kids who are around 13-14 (not sure) are in good clans and alliances in there. For pvp part u only need good equipment, skill doesn't have anything to do if u will suceed or not in simple pk or pvp. Castle sieges are bit different, but still there is nothing hard, it still mainly depends on how good geared ur clan/alliance is.

 

Obviously someone who has never truly played Lineage 2, and probably these "naber kids", whatever the hell those are, are playing on private servers. Lineage 2 is quite probably one of the hardest games to learn. The PvP side of the game is very difficult itself. It doesn't really come down to just having good equipment, if anything most people have pretty equivalent gear nowadays, it really isn't too difficult to obtain, especially with secondary market prices. I would like to see you tell me that pvp is all about good equipment and doesn't involve skill when myself and 8 friends (1 party) constantly wipe out 2-3 parties of people by ourselves. Lineage 2 is probably one of the MOST skill involved PvP MMO's of all time. It really irks me when people bash down a game having never played it and never took the time to understand the portions of the game they are bashing at that. L2getinformed.

AO realy should be on that list. I just wondered how much harder it would be to play without player-run DB-sites and reverse engineered item-DB... It's complex and most things aren't realy explained. Lot of info has to be found other than ingame.

You can't have complex games with flat learning curve. At some point you got to hit the complexity or you just have an boring grind game, one without items and one button ;D