Trending Games | Star Wars: The Old Republic | Elder Scrolls Online | Marvel Heroes | ArcheAge

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,921,865 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,314,666
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » General: MMOs and Community

20 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 14222

 
OP  9/17/10 10:35:42 AM#1

In this week's Player Perspectives, MMORPG.com columnist, Jaime Skelton, talks about communities. "Community," opines Jaime, "is the (game industry's) innards, not its skeleton." It is the very thing that gives an MMO its life and  without a community, a game is sure to fail. See what else Jaime has to say about MMOs and community in this week's Player Perspectives.

A community doesn't simply appear out of nowhere, nor does its existence mean a boon for the game publishers and developers that keep it alive. To use a tired metaphor, a community is very much like a garden, with a variety of plants, flowers, trees, and creatures living in its midst; many are good for the gardener, some merely pretty to look at, and others pests and weeds that threaten all the hard work if they are allowed to survive. The success of a community doesn't merely come from its being there. It comes from successful tending to the garden: removing weeds and pests, while nurturing the plants best suited for growth. Nurturing comes from listening, adapting, implementing, and turning what once was the developer's vision into what has become the player's vision.

Read more Player Perspectives: MMOs & Community.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  Grailchaser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 20

9/17/10 8:45:40 PM#2

Wow.  More whining about Cryptic without the courage do it except through innuendo.

I was hoping for some positive news about STO.  Or in fact *any* news about STO.

Isn't this topic called "Star Trek Online News - Seven Months Later"?

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 2012

9/17/10 8:47:11 PM#3

"So keep doing what you're doing: be vocal, be assertive, be picky."

 

I picked the right hobby.  One loud, bitchy diva coming up!  Or anyway, one loud, bitchy diva carrying on as always.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  User Deleted
9/17/10 8:51:45 PM#4
Originally posted by Grailchaser

Wow.  More whining about Cryptic without the courage do it except through innuendo.

I was hoping for some positive news about STO.  Or in fact *any* news about STO.

Isn't this topic called "Star Trek Online News - Seven Months Later"?

 

Actually, I think this topic is called "MMO's and Community" *blush*

 

Back on topic...

 

I'm afraid that community is not that high on my list of reasons to play X game. Sure, it's nice to have a helpful community. But in all reality, I could care less what people in game or on the interwebs; say, do, or think.

  Itchy01

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/10
Posts: 107

9/17/10 9:11:38 PM#5

Just my perspective on this topic:

The proverb goes "A camel is a horse designed by committee"

One persons vision is usually better than that of the collective.

By all means I think the exchange of ideas is nessecary in all industry in order to grow but what has to be remembered is for every person who is unsatisfied there are usually far more that are satisfied.

  afoaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 576

9/18/10 2:56:32 AM#6

One thing to add to the article; I have been in many different mmo communities in the past 10 years and I have noticed some things that always happens one of two ways.

Communities become more and more constructive over time if they can see that their ideas and opinions are taken seriously and are being acted upon. But if they only get canned responses, sugar coated monthly updates and see that none of the prime concerns of the community is being dealt with then the community becomes less and less constructive and instead turns angry and bitchy.

Board communities also really do reflect the general mood of the players in the game. Yes the vocal ones are always a minority but they are representing the mood of the players in general. I have often moved around and talked with people in games who never post on boards and I have discovered that in ANY game I have played that what is being said on the boards really do represent the mood and attitudes of the player base in that game.

"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."

  rikwes

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/08
Posts: 90

9/18/10 4:52:08 AM#7
Originally posted by afoaa


One thing to add to the article; I have been in many different mmo communities in the past 10 years and I have noticed some things that always happens one of two ways.

Communities become more and more constructive over time if they can see that their ideas and opinions are taken seriously and are being acted upon. But if they only get canned responses, sugar coated monthly updates and see that none of the prime concerns of the community is being dealt with then the community becomes less and less constructive and instead turns angry and bitchy.

Board communities also really do reflect the general mood of the players in the game. Yes the vocal ones are always a minority but they are representing the mood of the players in general. I have often moved around and talked with people in games who never post on boards and I have discovered that in ANY game I have played that what is being said on the boards really do represent the mood and attitudes of the player base in that game.

 

Indeed this is true. And numerous MMO's have been known to fail due to developers simply ignoring  their playerbase . I readily understand it must be hard for developers to read such critical remarks as can be seen on forums but it is vital to do so ( as afoaa mentions these are the only folks you can go on as developer and they usually have a better idea on what a game requires quite simply because they are actively playing it ) . I always feel studios underestimate the importance of  having a meaningful interaction with a game's community. By that I mean you don't   just read what is being said but repond to it and give players the feeling they are being taken serious. 

  Gyrus

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/07
Posts: 2324

9/18/10 12:17:08 PM#8

So, what I take form that is that you have realized we are not as dumb as we think you think we are?  ;-P

 

Seriously though, I think there have been studies on collective intelligence - and they found that in general the 'opinion' of the masses tends to be right?

So... one of the few things I would say 'the masses' here seem to be pretty much agreed on lately is that 2 Faction RvR games tend to fail.  Perhaps MMORPG.com could make sure that is brought to the attention of a couple of Dev houses that are going that way... yet again... lately?

 

As for the Garden analogy... well... it's a stretch...but okay.  How about "You reap what you sew." then.  IOW Developer Community Managers: if you plant the right seed and do your job from the very beginning (rather than wait unitl a week before release to start laying down the law) then you will get a community you want - and that will transfer to in game.

Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  holifeet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 534

9/18/10 1:29:42 PM#9

Why do I get the impression that Miss Skelton is of the thought that games companies don't really care about the communities? She seems rather cynical of their prasing of community involvement.

Trion have been very welcoming of their community for Rift and I truly believe they are honest and respect the community as much as they say.

Pushing the community to be proactive might not always be the best thing. Some people, when told to be assertive and fight for what they want to see, will just post drivel and non-productive lists of desires. Was Vanguard a result of the community pushing for what they wanted to see with no thought of how it might make the game?

Community is great but shouldn't game developers be left to make what they want to make, or will all games be just the same eventually?

All hail the Pixel, for it is glorious Orange!
.

  Astraeis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/17/10
Posts: 310

9/18/10 2:31:08 PM#10
Originally posted by holifeet

Trion have been very welcoming of their community for Rift and I truly believe they are honest and respect the community as much as they say.

Perhaps, but at the same time they are keeping them at a good distance from the game. They are effectively depriving their community from having any impact on the game so far. I remain skeptical.

It takes one to know one.

  afoaa

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 576

9/18/10 4:09:44 PM#11
Originally posted by holifeet

Community is great but shouldn't game developers be left to make what they want to make, or will all games be just the same eventually?

Rule nr.1 of game design has been and always will be: "Kill your darlings"

One persons vision can almost never ever be a good thing for a great mass of people. That's why dictatorships fail in the end and why wise kings were wise because they listened to their people.

I am not saying that the vision of one man always will fail but if it fails to make something positive for the masses then its a bad thing for a business.

If a developer cannot kill his darlings he should not make massive multiplayer games because his task is to make things that is fun for a LOT of people.

"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."

  bronislav84

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/09
Posts: 6

"If I'm gonna look at ass for hours on end, it might as well be a cute Female ass."

9/18/10 5:22:27 PM#12

Did this get mislabeled in the email mailing list? I clicked this link expecting "Star Trek Online News - Seven Months Later". Probably meant the "Re-Review" news and this was a mistake in the system.

bronislav84 Xfire Miniprofile
  Stormwatch

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/09
Posts: 86

9/18/10 8:28:24 PM#13

It was a well written article, but the metaphors and the melodramatic style more obscured the subject matter than clearing things up (in my opinion anyway).

First of all, in any commercial endeavour, someone, somewhere thinks about the important question: What do the people need? What are their desires?

Earlier on, these entrepeneurs were probably sincere or naive and really wanted to come up with something people really wanted. The motive can be anything from altruism to greed and most of the time it is somewhere in the middle. If you look up theories on capitalism, both elements frequently show up anyway.

It became increasingly difficult to go straight on adressing "what people want", even though this is still the core of any endeavor. So, a third thing was invented: marketing and commercials. They generate or amplify needs and desires.

Today, the products became increasingly complex and suddenly all these emotions that one entrepeneur had, are externalized and became jobs: someone to find out the desires of customers, someone to generate them, someone to communicate about them, someone to make money back etc

Yet, we are still in this "We vs. The Devs", complains that they won't listen. So yes, there is someone who wants to maximise profit for example. This is a job given to him. His personality doesn't matter. There is someone else who is tasked to find out what people want, they will listen. There is someone who wants to make a good game and they will (try to) do that. Then there are many more people who are helpful, in the way etc. 

The community is important as the consumer is always important. What's overlooked: does this include reading comments in a message board? Does this add a new quality to feedback that you don't have from looking at the various metrics? 

By statistical projection for example, you can determine how much a class sucks, in percent. You can create a kind of heat-map of your zone and see where players die, where they trade, completed quests and whatnot. It goes as far that companies can literally buy consumers by using metrics. They can determine how much an ad costs, how many clicks it generates, how many people became players etc. They can find out if the lightly clad female fantasy girl on the banner does better than the mail counterpart and so forth. This is all, by the way, a kind of communication between players and developers!

So lets go a bit further and ask: What are the benefits (for both sides) of "written communication" as it happens to be in the forums? And we have to look carefully that some ego reasons are not included (e.g. the layman armchair teacher, coach, designer, craftsman, movie director, actor etc who thinks s/he can do better, often from a hindsight pov and ignoring that the pro probably came to the same conclusions).

This would be a topic for a future column, me thinks :)

  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

9/20/10 12:19:24 AM#14

Inspiring article. Best post I've read on here all year.

 

Edit: I don't mind the weeds =)

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  Nesrie

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/08
Posts: 652

9/20/10 1:17:25 AM#15

I think there are companies that encourage and nurture their communities, and I think there are companies that can't stand that there are communities that might actually have them answer to some of the choices that have been made. I am glad you don't thinkthe community is just a mindless mass of uncertainty anymore. I certainly know what I like, and don't like. I also know I am not alone in those preferences.

 

I am not sure what the deal is with STO comments here, but this was just in the general news discussion to me, nothing STO specific.

parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.

  Quetos

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 48

9/20/10 9:06:17 AM#16

I really like the idea your presenting.

The problem is a game can succeed without a great community - simply though being a great game. So, create a great game, bring out updates which make it even better and people will play it, and be happy with it, even though they don't combine together and create a community.

Then, with the same game, bring out bad updates and the players will turn against you.

Quite simple but now you've got a happy 'community' on one hand and unhappy 'community' on the other which has nothing to actually do with a community at all - it's simply the players responding to the state the game is in. Get enough people agreeing with one another and, by default, you have a community.

Of course, great game and people will keep playing it because they enjoy it. Rubbish game and people will leave.

And, with the leaving, profit turns to loss and the game, ultimately, fails.

So while I love the idea of the players controling the game I think it's the other way around - the games state, good or bad, dictates the feelings of the players - and subsequently the community. It's the game that rules the players, not the other way around.

Throw Dawinism at it and it's survival of the fittest. Agreed, you'll have a few MMO's hanging around, eating the scraps which drop off the big boys table, but a community will never rule and make a rubbish game number one on the sales boards. They can do it on a forum but as soon as you start asking people to put cash in, your community will start to fall apart.

As an example, did everyone flock to Aion from WoW because of the community the game offered? Or was it because it was a 'WoW beater'? And then, did everyone flock back to WoW because they missed the community? Or was it because WoW is a better game than Aion? Needless to say, the 'community' was the same in both games so...

That's what I think anyway... the community can keep small budget game going but it'll never make a game number one. Only a game targeted at the majority audience, and the majority believe is: 'great' can do that.

It's just a shame these games take 2 or 3 years to build - 2 or 3 years ago WoW ruled and everyone was happy with it. Now these games are coming out, being labeled 'WoW clones' and going no where. Guess the marketing boys and girls didn't take this into account. But they'll learn.

  ZeroRiley

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 17

9/20/10 10:46:28 AM#17

lol at all the spelling and grammar mistakes, anyways thsi was a pretty good article

ZeroRiley Xfire Miniprofile
  divmax

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/05
Posts: 107

9/20/10 2:39:13 PM#18
Originally posted by Stormwatch


It was a well written article, but the metaphors and the melodramatic style more obscured the subject matter than clearing things up (in my opinion anyway).

First of all, in any commercial endeavour, someone, somewhere thinks about the important question: What do the people need? What are their desires?

Earlier on, these entrepeneurs were probably sincere or naive and really wanted to come up with something people really wanted. The motive can be anything from altruism to greed and most of the time it is somewhere in the middle. If you look up theories on capitalism, both elements frequently show up anyway.

It became increasingly difficult to go straight on adressing "what people want", even though this is still the core of any endeavor. So, a third thing was invented: marketing and commercials. They generate or amplify needs and desires.

Today, the products became increasingly complex and suddenly all these emotions that one entrepeneur had, are externalized and became jobs: someone to find out the desires of customers, someone to generate them, someone to communicate about them, someone to make money back etc

Yet, we are still in this "We vs. The Devs", complains that they won't listen. So yes, there is someone who wants to maximise profit for example. This is a job given to him. His personality doesn't matter. There is someone else who is tasked to find out what people want, they will listen. There is someone who wants to make a good game and they will (try to) do that. Then there are many more people who are helpful, in the way etc. 

The community is important as the consumer is always important. What's overlooked: does this include reading comments in a message board? Does this add a new quality to feedback that you don't have from looking at the various metrics? 

By statistical projection for example, you can determine how much a class sucks, in percent. You can create a kind of heat-map of your zone and see where players die, where they trade, completed quests and whatnot. It goes as far that companies can literally buy consumers by using metrics. They can determine how much an ad costs, how many clicks it generates, how many people became players etc. They can find out if the lightly clad female fantasy girl on the banner does better than the mail counterpart and so forth. This is all, by the way, a kind of communication between players and developers!

So lets go a bit further and ask: What are the benefits (for both sides) of "written communication" as it happens to be in the forums? And we have to look carefully that some ego reasons are not included (e.g. the layman armchair teacher, coach, designer, craftsman, movie director, actor etc who thinks s/he can do better, often from a hindsight pov and ignoring that the pro probably came to the same conclusions).

This would be a topic for a future column, me thinks :)

 

I applaud any company for using metrics in its decision making. But to use metrics-only is very short-sighted and not very good business practice. The metrics only tell you what players are doing. They don't answer questions of why players are doing what they are doing, and why are they not doing what they could be doing instead. There are a lot of qualitative questions for which metrics will never provide an answer.

eg. Just because statistically more people are doing some quests and not others, does not say much about what qualities of those quests are the attracting feature. And then there is the player profile of the majority to consider. Without such information, incorrect assumptions can be made and game features planned due to lazy thinking and analysis.

Another example. An analysis of people playing classes will be inevitably flawed because it doesn't account for cases where a class may be appealing in concept, therefore many people play it, or started one originally. Then years into a game, they are hanging on, hoping that the devs will notice it needs help. But because they are only looking at the statistics of how many players are currently playing the class, the conclusions are diluted. Player psychology is not taken into account.

Definitely a good article. 

  Stormwatch

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/09
Posts: 86

9/21/10 12:32:59 PM#19

I am not claiming you don't need forums at all, but maybe in different ways than it is often perceived. The reason to keep forums, although it migth hurt, could be simple "user retention" and this goal could outweight others from a company point of view. But that doesn't mean that individual developers don't read their games forums and get inspired by it (which I did for example).

The things you mention can be deduced from metrics. One class may die more often in PVP, or more often at specific cases. You want to set up test cases and ideal situations to check against anyway. With this amount of data, you can make qualitative assumptions. If tens of thousands characters play a quest in a certain way, you can get a very clear idea about its underlying structure. Like rolling dices: Some numbers show up. But when you do it often enough you will find underyling patterns and qualities that somehow unfold (such as that the 5 appears in 16.6666…% of cases). But the magic is that when you roll the dice ten times, it can happen that the 5 doesn't show up at all.

Besides, the last number I saw being kicked around was that around 20% of the players ever participate in forums. These are maybe the more "important" parts of the community (again from a corporate perspective) because they are vocal and vocal people in a social service are crucial. On the other hand, forums are often used as an extended "customer service" where people go to bring forward the issues they have, so even if you want to know the "climate" of the game or trends, this might be inaccurate.

I am obviously playing devils advocate, by the way :)

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

9/21/10 6:32:21 PM#20

Good comments on the value of community.

To add:

1. As MMO market is more competitive, service quality towards the community can give a competitive edge over other MMOs.

2. More player-driven content in future MMOs means more integrated community with the game, I think will become more important to developers to consider going forwards.

3. Most ppl will vote with their wallets what they want to play, but also players want to find an MMO where investment of time, money and "building bridges" leads to long-term benefits that partly depend on the community experience.

4. Having a top rate community can elevate the experience of a game and enjoyment and social factors is worth a lot tangible and intangible.

Giving players a space where they can communicate, collaborate, create and control is very good idea and why forums should be taken seriously by devs if they can manage some of the banality found on the internet spilling in from time to time.