The skill based system is superior in every way. It allows for greater freedom, greater specialization and means everyone starts at the same level.

Furthermore, the class based system is far harder to balance. Take a look at games like WOW, SWG and WAR, these are rife with balance issues, FOTM players and nerf whines. Notice that they are all class based games. The fact of the matter is that if a class is op/badly balanced then players either have to cry until it gets nerfed or roll a toon and level that specific class. In a skil based system, should a skill set be op, then everyone still has access to it.

The only advantage class systems have over skill systems is that it's far more accessible to people who don't want to have to think about creating a character. This is indicative of the mmo genre as a whole, games have become ever more casual and geared towards 'console esque' style gamers who just want to pick up and play from the start. The class system has taken over as this trend has continued.

Originally posted by DocZ

The biggest problem i see with a classless games is that in the end ( well probably only take a few months to a year of play) for people to start making classes on there own anyway especially when pvp is involved. someone online would find the best combination of skills in like 2 or 3 ways/combination sets and post tutorials online on how do make them and basically own all that down use those sets. So lots of players would end up copying them or somewere close to it just to match up.. or out of lazyness and you would end up with pretty much the same as a class game

Those are the people that get their asses handed to them in PVP, FOTM build and classes are like a placebo effect myself and other players have smacked down these types of people due to their lack of imagination and skill and most of all carelessness, learn what skills do what, learn to work against them to your advantage. This is the same in both skill based and class based systems, but in the end I like skill based the most cause of the freedom to make your character whatever YOU want, people choose to to copy others cause in their minds they think that is a IWIN button butreally if you think about its really not anything can be countered.

Originally posted by firefly2003

Originally posted by DocZ

The biggest problem i see with a classless games is that in the end ( well probably only take a few months to a year of play) for people to start making classes on there own anyway especially when pvp is involved. someone online would find the best combination of skills in like 2 or 3 ways/combination sets and post tutorials online on how do make them and basically own all that down use those sets. So lots of players would end up copying them or somewere close to it just to match up.. or out of lazyness and you would end up with pretty much the same as a class game

Those are the people that get their asses handed to them in PVP, FOTM build and classes are like a placebo effect myself and other players have smacked down these types of people due to their lack of imagination and skill and most of all carelessness, learn what skills do what, learn to work against them to your advantage. This is the same in both skill based and class based systems, but in the end I like skill based the most cause of the freedom to make your character whatever YOU want, people choose to to copy others cause in their minds they think that is a IWIN button butreally if you think about its really not anything can be countered.

While it's obvious that this is little more than tough talk, you're wrong. These are the kind of people that did not get their asses handed to them because the build is popular for a reason: Because it's a better, more powerful build.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by firefly2003

Originally posted by DocZ

The biggest problem i see with a classless games is that in the end ( well probably only take a few months to a year of play) for people to start making classes on there own anyway especially when pvp is involved. someone online would find the best combination of skills in like 2 or 3 ways/combination sets and post tutorials online on how do make them and basically own all that down use those sets. So lots of players would end up copying them or somewere close to it just to match up.. or out of lazyness and you would end up with pretty much the same as a class game

Those are the people that get their asses handed to them in PVP, FOTM build and classes are like a placebo effect myself and other players have smacked down these types of people due to their lack of imagination and skill and most of all carelessness, learn what skills do what, learn to work against them to your advantage. This is the same in both skill based and class based systems, but in the end I like skill based the most cause of the freedom to make your character whatever YOU want, people choose to to copy others cause in their minds they think that is a IWIN button butreally if you think about its really not anything can be countered.

While it's obvious that this is little more than tough talk, you're wrong. These are the kind of people that did not get their asses handed to them because the build is popular for a reason: Because it's a better, more powerful build.

 A better, more powerful build doesnt necessary mean PVP win. In fact the skill of the player comes into effect. Their ability to understand the build and how to effectively and effeciently use it matters. If it is a build someone else created because they can squeeze max dps out of it, doesnt mean some regular clown can do the same. And in the hectic nature of PVP, they probably do get the asses handed to them.

how about hybrid.  a class based system which use skill points.

Oh ya, and to the post above me.  With equal skilled, the more power build win, weather it's class based or freedom based. 

The only difference is it's harder to find the optimum builds in skilled based games.  And when alot of people starts using this FOTM builds in skilled based games, the developer end up nerfing them.

In the end, Skill vs. Class doesn't matter at all.  They're just two styles for how you choose to distribute the player's capabilities.  But the factors as I see them:

• Most implementations of skill-based games are burdened by terrible playstyle balance and bad PVE content.
• Many implementations of skill-based games have terrible progression activities.  Swing a sword to raise Sword Skill is borderline.  Many games go overboard, causing you to spam jump or auto-swim 400 hours, or (worse yet) avoid playing the game entirely (/cough EVE).   Good progression is so simple: create a variety of genuinely fun activities to do in the game; assign them xp; let players choose what they like to do, and they'll get rewarded for it.  
• Class-based tends to represent a stronger promise from devs to make multiple playstyles viable (and often results in a greater number of distinct playstyles as well, as the devs put forth effort to differentiate the styles from one another.)

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Furthermore, the class based system is far harder to balance. Take a look at games like WOW, SWG and WAR, these are rife with balance issues, FOTM players and nerf whines. Notice that they are all class based games. The fact of the matter is that if a class is op/badly balanced then players either have to cry until it gets nerfed or roll a toon and level that specific class. In a skil based system, should a skill set be op, then everyone still has access to it.

The old pre-NGE SWG skill system was seriously unbalanced with many skillsets practically useless.  If you wanted to change skillsets you had to do the equivalent of rerolling a new character.  Balance issues are strictly a matter of implementation.  A class based system can be just as balanced or unbalanced as a skill-based one.

Oh btw, I am a fan of guild Wars style class based system I must say. If the game has to go that route then GW is the model to follow. It's just bloody perfect for an arena-style game that has short level cap, etc

Originally posted by laokoko

how about hybrid.  a class based system which use skill points.

Oh ya, and to the post above me.  With equal skilled, the more power build win, weather it's class based or freedom based. 

The only difference is it's harder to find the optimum builds in skilled based games.  And when alot of people starts using this FOTM builds in skilled based games, the developer end up nerfing them.

 I agree with your assessment that with equal skill the optimum build will win. The point in my response was that just because you know what the "optimum" build is doesn't mean you will win with it. At some point the player's skill does matter. I ahve seen many players with "optimum" builds that don't have the skill to use it, dont understand the proper way to implement the skills or even understand how the skills work in conjunction with each other. I would venture to say that even with equal skill, the person that "discovers" the build will have more intimate knowledge of it and how it works and therefore will still best a player that just "copied and pasted" it.

Class based vs skill based

In theory it would be kewl if players could pick any of the skills they want  - classes define the initial bonus or type of armour your character can equip.

It would be very unbalaced to have tank high defence characters with the choice of the most powerful skills.

So classes are needed for team balance & skills must be suited to the class role, the two are designed to go hand in hand imo.

Without details I would choose class based.. Why?  Because if you go skill base,my experience shows me that people will always gravitate to the "optimal" set up..  90% of the players will min/max a skill system to figure out the ONE best template and eventually everyone flocks to that set up..  Therefore, in my opinion, I would rather just have straight up role defining classes..  Diversity to me is a key element to online social play, plus it keeps me from getting bored to tears..

Think about it.. If you have a classless system , you end up having a one class system.. No need for alts.. However people normally get bored of the main toon and strive to make alts, and will always pick a different class when they do.. Class based for the win :)

Originally posted by Rydeson

Without details I would choose class based.. Why?  Because if you go skill base,my experience shows me that people will always gravitate to the "optimal" set up..  90% of the players will min/max a skill system to figure out the ONE best template and eventually everyone flocks to that set up..  Therefore, in my opinion, I would rather just have straight up role defining classes..  Diversity to me is a key element to online social play, plus it keeps me from getting bored to tears..

Think about it.. If you have a classless system , you end up having a one class system.. No need for alts.. However people normally get bored of the main toon and strive to make alts, and will always pick a different class when they do.. Class based for the win :)

SWG and Ultima Online both had characters with very divers and wide range of skill groups.  Neither of which produced the mythical "1 class" game that people keep bringing up.  In fact you might be hard pressed to find two characters that are identical in swg for example. 

Every game, regardless of its character building system, will produce flavor of the month builds that people scream at the top of their lungs is the only viable build, but given the option players have and do deviate from the perceived best builds. 

Originally posted by Daffid011

Originally posted by Rydeson

Without details I would choose class based.. Why?  Because if you go skill base,my experience shows me that people will always gravitate to the "optimal" set up..  90% of the players will min/max a skill system to figure out the ONE best template and eventually everyone flocks to that set up..  Therefore, in my opinion, I would rather just have straight up role defining classes..  Diversity to me is a key element to online social play, plus it keeps me from getting bored to tears..

Think about it.. If you have a classless system , you end up having a one class system.. No need for alts.. However people normally get bored of the main toon and strive to make alts, and will always pick a different class when they do.. Class based for the win :)

SWG and Ultima Online both had characters with very divers and wide range of skill groups.  Neither of which produced the mythical "1 class" game that people keep bringing up.  In fact you might be hard pressed to find two characters that are identical in swg for example. 

Every game, regardless of its character building system, will produce flavor of the month builds that people scream at the top of their lungs is the only viable build, but given the option players have and do deviate from the perceived best builds. 

 

I would disagree with the SWG example..  I played that game from Day 1 till Day 150something.. lol  After CU and before NGE..  Non combat skills was the only thing people did a lil of this, or a lil of that with..  I played a master musican, that was novice pistoleer and C/H..  However I was not a combat toon.. I remember those that did focus on combat only.. I remember when everyone went Creature Handler (remember the game being called Pet Wars) until that was nerfed.. Then I remember all the combat players going "combat medic".. That was nerfed then, and eventually I think it turned into 90% going TKA/doc combo..  

I'll stick with my opinion that when I played it.. if you were a combat fighting class.. 90% of then always gravitated to a "best" template.. It was one reason why SWG came out with the NGE class set up.. 

Originally posted by Rydeson

Think about it.. If you have a classless system , you end up having a one class system.. No need for alts.. However people normally get bored of the main toon and strive to make alts, and will always pick a different class when they do.. Class based for the win :)

Could you describe the one class in Asheron's Call, EVE Online, Puzzle Pirates, ATITD or Ultima Online?

If not, could you list the skill-based MMOs you are referring to?

Originally posted by Rydeson

I would disagree with the SWG example..  I played that game from Day 1 till Day 150something.. lol  After CU and before NGE..  Non combat skills was the only thing people did a lil of this, or a lil of that with..  I played a master musican, that was novice pistoleer and C/H..  However I was not a combat toon.. I remember those that did focus on combat only.. I remember when everyone went Creature Handler (remember the game being called Pet Wars) until that was nerfed.. Then I remember all the combat players going "combat medic".. That was nerfed then, and eventually I think it turned into 90% going TKA/doc combo..  

I'll stick with my opinion that when I played it.. if you were a combat fighting class.. 90% of then always gravitated to a "best" template.. It was one reason why SWG came out with the NGE class set up.. 

There were plenty of smugglers, bounty hunters, commandos, swordsmans, medics, pistoleers, rifleman and countless other combinations of classes running around during those flavor of the month periods.   Every fight was different, because there were so many different character builds running around, even for the more popular templates.  I can assure you that "everyone" did not go creature handler, combat medic or tka/doc.  Popular, sure, but no where close to the exagerations you post. 

It doesn't really matter if some sterile spreadsheet crunches numbers to show that one build is 4% better than another build in ideal labratory conditions.  Being able to build a character with abilities that cater to your playstyle will be give better results. 

The combat update period of SWG took a lot of freedom away and forced players into picking more streamlined builds due to how the character level system worked.  Even still there were many different character builds for combat, crafting and socializing.  Far greater than anything a class based system could produce.

It looks like there are some that genuinely like the Class-based format better but some pick it because its the safe choice, not knowing what excatly what the skills based system entales. There are a lot of different ones that have been tried but still many more to be discovered. But I think the biggest problem that still remains is getting progression work as well as Class/level based.

lol I was just thinking how you could combat the FotM problem. Whatever skill build is used the most either automattically gets slightly nerfed or everyone engaing that person is a little better attacking them. (Of course I wouldn't tell the players :D )Not being serious but it makes me wonder...

Originally posted by mmoguy43

lol I was just thinking how you could combat the FotM problem. Whatever skill build is used the most either automattically gets slightly nerfed or everyone engaing that person is a little better attacking them. (Of course I wouldn't tell the players :D )Not being serious but it makes me wonder...

Sounds a bit like AC's old spell system, the name of which I can't remember, where the more a spell was used across the game world, the weaker it would become.  However, I'm still not convinced there really is a FotM problem in skill-based MMOs currently as I see a lot more diversity in templates and character careers than in class-based MMOs.