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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Anyone else not going to be satisfied with MMOs until "skill" is added into the gameplay?

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222 posts found
  Lille7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/08
Posts: 303

6/22/10 8:22:34 AM#61
Originally posted by maltos

Isn't the "skill" in any RPG to optimize your character as you see fit?

This is the idea. But it doesn't work like that in reality. Let's use World of Warcraft as an example here, in wow all you need to do to optimize your character is to go to elitist jerks and find the most optimal build for whatever task it is your performing. And voila, now you are as good as you can be, and anyone not using that same optimal build is considered a noob or an idiot.

  Katrar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 174

6/22/10 9:09:58 AM#62

lol I really love these threads.

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet". Find anyone who failed a class because he couldn't get in enough Wizardry, even after clocking four or five hundred hours on the same game. Who has bought or hand built by now his 10th or 15th gaming rig and spent more time on them then he's spent sleeping the past few decades. Find anyone who's list of finished games requires a word document broken up into chapters, separated by eras.

Most of these people are still playing games. Their gaming is driven not by gamer scores, prizes or any other kind of public cred, their gaming is driven by their passion for gaming. Many of these people don't count "twitch" among their interests. Personally I'd say any of these people warrants the title "hard core" a hell of a lot more than some whiny self impressed "twitch gamer".

Hard core gaming isn't about twitch. It's never been about twitch. It's about passion, the love of gaming that drives hard core gamers to choose gaming over X,Y,Z. Certainly twitch gamers can be hard core, but to suggest that only twitch gaming is hard core... well, anyone who would suggest that simply doesn't know the history of computer gamers and computer gaming.

Personally I'd say that if you have two gamers... Gamer #1 is a twelve year old girl that spends 16 hours a day in Hello Kitty Online, and is so invested in the game that she dreams about it at night, and gamer #2 is some punk ass that spends a few hours after school every day knifing his friends in Halo, and ok he's good enough he never gets the favor returned... well, sorry twitch gamers but that twelve year old is HELLA hard core compared to you. It is what it is. lol

  orangerascal

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 52

6/22/10 9:16:58 AM#63
Originally posted by Katrar

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

OMG that's me :)

  Katrar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 174

6/22/10 9:23:44 AM#64
Originally posted by orangerascal
Originally posted by Katrar

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

OMG that's me :)

Me too =P Old gamers unite!

  BioNut

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 427

 
OP  6/22/10 10:00:55 AM#65
Originally posted by Zarcob

Everytime I see a thread about games needing more "skill" I can't help but detect a thinly veiled implication.  An implication suggesting that the person asking for more said "skill" in his games believes he would melt faces for miles around with his sheer awesomeness if any MMO were simply bold enough to implement his idea.

 

It's nice to see a thread once in a while where it's not veiled at all.

 

Not gonna lie, give me a shooter and within 3 or 4 games I'm topping the leaderboard. My brain is just wired for FPS/TPS games I guess. I still get rofl stomped plenty of times though. :)

 

I am also not wanting a call of duty mmo. I want more of a god of war/DMC style combat system with active blocking and counter moves.

 

AOC almost got it right.....almost :P .

Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  BioNut

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 427

 
OP  6/22/10 10:05:33 AM#66
Originally posted by Comnitus

EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

 

Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

 

Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19524

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/22/10 10:09:52 AM#67
Originally posted by BioNut
Originally posted by Comnitus

EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

 

Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

 

Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong.  EVE is one of the few MMO's where a new player can actually "catch up" in terms of competitiveness and become a major factor in the game even now.  But that said, it takes some time, and you won't become ruler of 0.0 in a 3-6 months, but in the course of several years you could be leading the next scourge Alliance of free space.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  BioNut

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 427

 
OP  6/22/10 10:15:56 AM#68
Originally posted by Katrar

lol I really love these threads.

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet". Find anyone who failed a class because he couldn't get in enough Wizardry, even after clocking four or five hundred hours on the same game. Who has bought or hand built by now his 10th or 15th gaming rig and spent more time on them then he's spent sleeping the past few decades. Find anyone who's list of finished games requires a word document broken up into chapters, separated by eras.

Most of these people are still playing games. Their gaming is driven not by gamer scores, prizes or any other kind of public cred, their gaming is driven by their passion for gaming. Many of these people don't count "twitch" among their interests. Personally I'd say any of these people warrants the title "hard core" a hell of a lot more than some whiny self impressed "twitch gamer".

Hard core gaming isn't about twitch. It's never been about twitch. It's about passion, the love of gaming that drives hard core gamers to choose gaming over X,Y,Z. Certainly twitch gamers can be hard core, but to suggest that only twitch gaming is hard core... well, anyone who would suggest that simply doesn't know the history of computer gamers and computer gaming.

Personally I'd say that if you have two gamers... Gamer #1 is a twelve year old girl that spends 16 hours a day in Hello Kitty Online, and is so invested in the game that she dreams about it at night, and gamer #2 is some punk ass that spends a few hours after school every day knifing his friends in Halo, and ok he's good enough he never gets the favor returned... well, sorry twitch gamers but that twelve year old is HELLA hard core compared to you. It is what it is. lol

 

My distinction is that hardcore gamers view gaming as a quasi sport. Its about competition, they practice compete in tourneys, make teams and most of those gamers play twitch games because much like our twitch sports (football, soccer, etc) they require the most skill.

 

You thinking I am a punk ass kid is insulting. Gaming is my passion I spend countless hours playing all types of games and I view gaming compititions like psuedo sports (I played alot of sports growing up and was very competitive).  I know wow has "seasons" for PvP and I respect that but the games could use a little more skill is all.

 

Underdogs really can't win. It boils down to who has the best gear or the best luck because in MMOs you can only be SO good with a character because of the way they are built. You essentially play the character the way the devs want you to, there is no room for creativity or self expression.

 

Like I said AOC really came close to delivering what I am looking for. If they had made active blocking a viable means of protecting yourself and allowed timed counters with the blocking it could have been my favorite game of all time.

Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  Neanderthal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 1618

6/22/10 10:16:49 AM#69
Originally posted by Katrar
Originally posted by orangerascal
Originally posted by Katrar

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet".

OMG that's me :)

Me too =P Old gamers unite!

 Ah, I don't quite qualify.  I stopped at the TRS-80.  But I did write my own programs in BASIC for those.  Remember saving programs on cassette tapes, heh.

Hey, do any of you remember a game in BASIC called Rakka 2 or something like that?  All text, and you were exploring a pryamid.  I liked it so much I made my own version based on the layout of my high school.

  Kenaoshi

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/09
Posts: 1016

6/22/10 10:16:50 AM#70
Originally posted by BioNut
Long answer= Hardcore gamers are people who enjoy games that require skill, not time commitment. (think street fighter, Call of Duty, japanese top down shooters).

 

And to be good on anything you must practice, and for that people DO spend lots of time on it, planning, try and error, so that "skill" comes with time commitment.

So "in suma" none here will be satisfied with any game, none wanna have an adventure, just WIN and show off their e-peens.

now: GW2 (10 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  BioNut

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 427

 
OP  6/22/10 10:21:53 AM#71
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by BioNut
Originally posted by Comnitus

EVE takes skill. Skill with your brain, theorycrafting skill, social skills to make friends who will back you up, skills like common sense...

Oh, that's not the skill you were talking about, eh? Well, I hope you find an MMO to suit you. Darkfall or Mortal Online sound pretty accurate.

 

Yes, and I mentioned in my op that strategy games require skill. Eve seems like an amazing game and if it was brand new I'd play it. I am so far behind in that game that I'd never be able to compete or add anything to a coorporation now though. :(

 

Games that don't require skill are tank n spank pve mmos and pvp games that revolve around what gear you have. I wanna see a naked level 80 take out a fully armored level 80. Give me David vs Goliath and lets make somebody a legend because he is just that good at the game.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong.  EVE is one of the few MMO's where a new player can actually "catch up" in terms of competitiveness and become a major factor in the game even now.  But that said, it takes some time, and you won't become ruler of 0.0 in a 3-6 months, but in the course of several years you could be leading the next scourge Alliance of free space.

 

I bought the game on steam a week ago and I intend to play it because the thought provoking nature of the system intreagues me.  From what I here large battles are sort of like chess matches and I consider that skillful.

Really I wasn't including Eve like games in my rant.  I should have been more specific and stating mainstream MMO games bother me (WoW, LotRO, AOC,etc) not some of the more niche (even though eves pop is impressive I hear) games.

I had hope that SWTOR would be Jedi Knight the MMO but unfortunately it will not. Doesn't mean I wont spend 1000 hours playing it though :P.

Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3

Waiting on: Guild Wars 2

  Giosync

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 108

Maybe Tuesday.

6/22/10 10:37:38 AM#72

Here is how you get skill in an MMO: everyone has the same health, the same access to EVERYTHING and has the exact same damage output. Leaves for little in terms of customization or progression, ultimately making it so by day one, you can be bored to hell with the MMO. I like how current MMOs work, time based, because it's like this: I spend more time on it, so I should be better than other people at it because my character has seen more action, got more experience with the world of that game and ultimately improved himself greatly since he started.

I'm free on Friday.

  Hhussk

City of Heroes Correspondent

Joined: 12/18/07
Posts: 220

That which surrounds you, becomes you.

6/22/10 10:43:35 AM#73

Just wanted to make a hearty attempt to answer the title of the thread.

 

What dissatisfies me more than anything else about the MMORPG is the "RPG". There's no real attempt to implement true roleplaying in the roleplaying mmo.

Sure, you might think all those cute and cuddly carebear people, with their "emotes" and dancing, are roleplayers; in truth, they aren't anymore than anyone else. What's missing, in my opinion, is a system that influences players to accomodate roleplay to acheive their goals.

For example, in your typical MMO, you can pretty much (attempt to) kill anyone you come across. What stops you? There is no justice system; you do not go to jail. Your possessions aren't taken. And what happens when you die? Nothing much, maybe 15 minutes of weakness, perhaps? There's no sense of proportion.

If a game was going to influence the RP, you wouldn't go around killing other players unless you could, strategically, work out a situation where it was plausible. In the days of AD&D, the ancient grandfather of the MMORPG, battle was only one part of the game. There was diplomacy, research, secret societies, dark magics with equally bad consequences.

The style of society in MMORPGs is basically clans and guilds. The city/realm/kingdom aspect, where laws and legislation dictate justice, barely exists.

Ah well; this comment is twice as long as I wanted and half as long as I needed. Let me just say this; many of you have never, and might never, see and feel the true aspects of roleplaying in an MMORPG. If you think there needs to be more "skill", I respect your wishes, but feel that's the wrong direction to go. Once you delve into "skill", you're usually talking about maneuvering and jump/firing while in combat. And at that point, it becomes a matter of your ping rate.

Ping...

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Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk

  User Deleted
6/22/10 10:46:00 AM#74

RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

  BigMango

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/10/06
Posts: 1839

6/22/10 10:53:53 AM#75
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

 

+1

AoC is a good example of how a game lacking gear progression can fail. Funcom had the same illusions as the OP, but after everyone was leaving the boat they had to change it to gear progession to get their players back.

mmoRPG players need progression, something to look out for.

  Rabenwolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/06
Posts: 1489

6/22/10 11:00:05 AM#76
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

 

I hope you do not actually believe that. I would assume by definition, RPG players want DEPTH. Challenges that include everything from micromanagement to Identification and reaction challenges. A game is only created through rulesets that result in challenges, the types of challenges present define the genre.

 

I guess what I would have to ask the OP of this thread is...how do you define skill? is it player skill vs character skill? is twitch vs intelligent play? what kind of challenges are you associating with skill?

The fact that the OP claims that mmorpgs that are not "twitch" based are some how not for hardcore gamers, or even skill based... says a lot about their understanding of design and modes of play. I could counter argue that player skill without character skill (items, stats, levels, abilities) results in reactionary play rather than intelligent play. One would assume intelligent play is the most valued skill to have in any game.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

6/22/10 11:07:10 AM#77
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth

RPG players don't want skill in games, they want to "win" constiantly and chase gear. If this was not true, MMOFPS games would be more popular.

A few things are funny about this...

1)  The cough, ahem - "skill" player is looking to "win" constantly and chase whatever it is they like.

2)  If there were any kind of market for those gaes, more MMOFPS games would exist.

3)  Not all RPG players are alike, but even so - many of those that do want skill in games do not consider "twitch" to be any more skill than oh say one tying their shoes...

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  xsarkaix

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/07
Posts: 292

6/22/10 11:16:57 AM#78

go play savage 2   there thread closed

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/22/10 12:27:47 PM#79
Originally posted by Giosync

Here is how you get skill in an MMO: everyone has the same health, the same access to EVERYTHING and has the exact same damage output. Leaves for little in terms of customization or progression, ultimately making it so by day one, you can be bored to hell with the MMO. I like how current MMOs work, time based, because it's like this: I spend more time on it, so I should be better than other people at it because my character has seen more action, got more experience with the world of that game and ultimately improved himself greatly since he started.

Balanced skill-centric gameplay doesn't require everyone to be identical.  The best and most interesting competitive games are things like Starcraft and Street Fighter, where substantial playstyle variety exists.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

6/22/10 1:00:37 PM#80
Originally posted by Katrar

lol I really love these threads.

Find anyone in their 30s, 40s, 50s+ who leapfrogged from Pong to Atari, to TRS-80, Apple, Commodore, and onwards. Who had to program his own games out of a magazine because there was no such thing as GameStop. Who spent countless thousands of hours glued to a monochrome screen playing the classic oldies from SirTech, Origin, Electronic Arts, SSI, and more. Who endlessly surfed "the boards" on 300 baud modems a decade or more before anyone had ever heard of "the internet". Find anyone who failed a class because he couldn't get in enough Wizardry, even after clocking four or five hundred hours on the same game. Who has bought or hand built by now his 10th or 15th gaming rig and spent more time on them then he's spent sleeping the past few decades. Find anyone who's list of finished games requires a word document broken up into chapters, separated by eras.

Most of these people are still playing games. Their gaming is driven not by gamer scores, prizes or any other kind of public cred, their gaming is driven by their passion for gaming. Many of these people don't count "twitch" among their interests. Personally I'd say any of these people warrants the title "hard core" a hell of a lot more than some whiny self impressed "twitch gamer".

Hard core gaming isn't about twitch. It's never been about twitch. It's about passion, the love of gaming that drives hard core gamers to choose gaming over X,Y,Z. Certainly twitch gamers can be hard core, but to suggest that only twitch gaming is hard core... well, anyone who would suggest that simply doesn't know the history of computer gamers and computer gaming.

Personally I'd say that if you have two gamers... Gamer #1 is a twelve year old girl that spends 16 hours a day in Hello Kitty Online, and is so invested in the game that she dreams about it at night, and gamer #2 is some punk ass that spends a few hours after school every day knifing his friends in Halo, and ok he's good enough he never gets the favor returned... well, sorry twitch gamers but that twelve year old is HELLA hard core compared to you. It is what it is. lol

 newsflash.   space wars, pong, galaga, etc. were twitch games.

i was there for all those early games (except space wars), systems and computers, i'm 40 and i'm a 'twitch gamer'.

The End
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i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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