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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Rebuttal to Argument: I like cash shops because my time is money!

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127 posts found
  madeux

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/02/08
Posts: 1868

I have little patience for humans...

6/17/10 6:06:19 PM#121
Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by nariusseldon

In essence what Developers are doing is trying to change the bargain to make us pay more for, what many of us percieve, as a lower level of service.

*This* is total bullshit.

If a large % of F2P players are paying NOTHING, how can this be framed as "make us pay more"?

Sure the level of service is lower than a P2P service but you get it FOR FREE. I have been playing DDO here and there and yet to pay a cent. At this price, i don't expect WOW.

I don't think there is anything "unfair" in giving many players part of the game for free. If you read the fine print, you can even play to the end game for free.

I would have spend money & time on DDO or LOTRO. Now i can have some fun at no money. Tell me how that is not a good deal and why i should not be supporting it?

If it fits your needs, then there's no reason why you shouldn't.

But, that does not mean that the F2P model is for everyone else.

The only reason for developers to change the payment model of a game is to make more money. It's non-sensicle for a for-profit business to intentionally reduce their profit. Therefore, the change to a F2P model is specifically to get more money out of customers. There's two ways to do this, which is to charge players more, or by increasing the sheer volume of those paying. Of course, with more players means more cost in overhead to maintain the servers. When you take into consideration that the majority of new players to a game that goes F2P won't pay a dime, then the increase in profit obviously has to come from somewhere... which is where the existing playerbase comes in.

Either way, the shift to F2P is to make more money. Whether it's by hooking a lot of "free" players and then convincing them to spend a little, or to push existing customers to open their wallets even more with the newly instated item shop. That's what Turbine is betting the game on.

Too many people seem to forget that EVERY mmo exists for one reason alone: Profit.

  Latella

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/27/09
Posts: 190

6/17/10 6:26:00 PM#122

F2P games are made so that you end up paying even more than on a subscription based game, if you aim to be high tier competitive. However, in exchange it offers you the luxury to pay when you feel like it and as  much  as you feel confortable to at any given time.

It also offers players that would otherwise not be able to suscribe monthly, a way to play a demo of the game and to progressively unlock  parts of the full game  as they can allow themselves to.

But the one and only goal is for each player who is serious about playing the game, to make its cash contribution in a way or another.

It´s just business.

 

 

Rawr.

  Ihmotepp

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/28/08
Posts: 14557

6/17/10 6:27:50 PM#123
Originally posted by madeux
 

Too many people seem to forget that EVERY mmo exists for one reason alone: Profit.

 

I agree that mmorpgs, even EQ and UO and SWG pre-NGE, are businesses, and businesses exist to make money. Nothing wrong with that. 

But there are short term profits, and long term profits. Short term is screw you, give me your money, and if I never see you again, oh well, I already got your dollars. 

Long term is, well, I could have screwed you and made a few more dollars, but I want you as a customer in the future, so I'd rather treat you a bit better now, and get more of your money later. 

  User Deleted
6/17/10 6:40:41 PM#124
Originally posted by qombi

This argument has always sounded silly to me. Games are purchased to be played as entertainment. They are not like your mother making you eat vegetables. You are not forced to buy them. I don't care how much time you think you are saving by buying pixels. Why do it in the first place? Think of all the time you would save by not even buying the game, then you wouldn't have pay someone else so you don't have to play it.

If you are so concerned about how much your time is worth, why did you buy the game if you knew this? Games are a waste of time, they are a form of entertainment. You should also start buying movies and only watching the last 10 minutes to "save" your precious time. You should pay for cable TV and not watch it to "save" your precious time. Maybe you can find a service that you can pay money for to have people give you a brief summary of what the movie or show was about.

That seems like something these guys would argue for. Who has time to waste on actually watching the movies or shows when someone can summarize if for a fee? It would make too much sense to maybe not buy the movies, cable TV, or games you do not have time to watch or play, or perhaps purchase games that are designed for a person with your precious time constraints that you don't have to buy your way out of having to actually play it.

Have you ever though of that? Have you ever thought that when you buy from these shops to make up for these time constraints you have you only encourage these type of long hour games to continue? Instead of fixing these perceived time issues in these games, you are telling these companies "Hey! I like that these games take longer than I have time to play, I would actually pay you more to skip some of it! Just think about that for a moment before you respond. If enough people are really concerned with how long these games take to accomplish things in or how long it takes to "grind", then don't buy them.

If these games do not sell, I promise they will stop being produced. You don't have to pay extra for items in a shop to make up for a game's short falls.

 

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Thank you for reading, I hope you enjoyed.

 The base problem in your argument is no one person is responsible for telling another person how or what should entertain them, this entire post is like trying to argue with someone over whether they spend money to see a movie at IMAX for extra cost or buying collectors editions etc..  Video games are simply a form of entertainment and while I could live without cash shops I don't see where I or anyone else has the final say in the use of them or not.  If there are enough people who would play if they had them and the company can find a viable way to include one I don't see a viable reason to argue withholding it.

Obviously this has become a hot button issue due to LOTRO recent decision to go F2P I can attest the decision has already made them money, I have subbed to the game for about a year and a half off and on and my interest in the decision they made interested me enough to sub again now, haven't played much but for the company and myself it's a win win situation.  I also belief this to be so in mmo's in general because the very nature of having a constant "bill" for something makes the attatchment far too personal for the varied nature of video games.  I've tried alot of mmo's but not nearly as many as I would if it weren't for the fact that they constantly keep their hands in my pocket and that's to the detriment of them not me.

Cash shops I could care less about but I would love to see more companies offer their game for free up to a certain point, I don't care if they used in game advertising or whatever to supplement their income but in general once I spend 50 plus dollars on a game I don't look forward to keep seeing their hands in my pockets like everyother company nowadays, it's the most annoying thing and highly transparent to me no one wants to even make a product if it in someway doesn't have some type of contract attached to it anymore and I hope that Turbine can buck this trend and kill the myths that these games need to keep bleeding us dry to survive.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3566

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/17/10 6:48:23 PM#125
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by madeux
 

Too many people seem to forget that EVERY mmo exists for one reason alone: Profit.

 

I agree that mmorpgs, even EQ and UO and SWG pre-NGE, are businesses, and businesses exist to make money. Nothing wrong with that. 

But there are short term profits, and long term profits. Short term is screw you, give me your money, and if I never see you again, oh well, I already got your dollars. 

Long term is, well, I could have screwed you and made a few more dollars, but I want you as a customer in the future, so I'd rather treat you a bit better now, and get more of your money later. 

Thats the essence of business in just about any(non government supported) market sector.  Those who are the most successful know how to keep the majority of their customers happy, and thus paying.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5232

6/18/10 3:08:45 AM#126
The early MMO’s were created by gamers and programmers with a vision of creating new genres of gaming on the new massive multiplayer platform. Sure they wanted to make a profit, but the reason they wanted to make a profit with a MMO was that it was in an area they loved.
 
Today it is money men and marketing who lead the way. They have a vision, a vision of squeezing as much money out of the MMO platform as possible. I have in some detail before illustrated this change by looking at how the CEO’s of gaming companies started as creative types and ended up being replaced with a suit.
 
Are football clubs just about profit? Is Marks and Spencer just about profit? No, they consider the fans if they have them, or at least their reputation. We started with MMO companies which had an ethos akin to a football club or a high class retailer. We are already well on the way to ending up with MMO companies who have the values and class of a cheap super market. What comes after that? MMO companies that have the ethos of a pound shop?
 
"Those who are most successful know how to keep the majority of their customers happy?" Well successful at stock clearance perhaps. You are talking as if all companies only have one buisness model, I am saying MMO's are better when they follow the business ethos of Chelsea Football Club or Rolls-Royce, not bargin bin basement retailers.
  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3566

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

6/18/10 3:43:42 AM#127
Originally posted by Scot
The early MMO’s were created by gamers and programmers with a vision of creating new genres of gaming on the new massive multiplayer platform. Sure they wanted to make a profit, but the reason they wanted to make a profit with a MMO was that it was in an area they loved.
 
Today it is money men and marketing who lead the way. They have a vision, a vision of squeezing as much money out of the MMO platform as possible. I have in some detail before illustrated this change by looking at how the CEO’s of gaming companies started as creative types and ended up being replaced with a suit.
 
Are football clubs just about profit? Is Marks and Spencer just about profit? No, they consider the fans if they have them, or at least their reputation. We started with MMO companies which had an ethos akin to a football club or a high class retailer. We are already well on the way to ending up with MMO companies who have the values and class of a cheap super market. What comes after that? MMO companies that have the ethos of a pound shop?
 
"Those who are most successful know how to keep the majority of their customers happy?" Well successful at stock clearance perhaps. You are talking as if all companies only have one buisness model, I am saying MMO's are better when they follow the business ethos of Chelsea Football Club or Rolls-Royce, not bargin bin basement retailers.

 

While I agree with some of that, the reason that those creative types ended up being replaced with suits is rather simple. MONEY. As MMO's have progressed, they have become ever more expensive to produce. When it takes millions and millions of (other peoples money) to finish one of these projects, those funding the projects get ever more trigger happy and risk adverse.

Creative types seldom have the personal skill sets required to hand hold investors and keep them from panic, if mile stones get missed, or the inevitable delay happens.  Software development is still more art than science at this point. But trying to explain that to investor types is futile at best. Its far better to have a suit to hand hold them.  But then suits and marketing types start making decisions, best left to the creative types. We've all seen the results of that.

In an ideal world, yes, it would be better if the first focus was on making a fun game.  But this world is far from ideal, and as long as it takes all of those millions to create an MMO, the suits will be calling the shots, which means that the first focus is on profit.  As middleware continues to progress, that may change. Check out Hero Cloud as an example of progress in that direction.

http://www.heroengine.com/2010/06/herocloud/

Until that time, we will have to put up with the current trend, and hope for the best.

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