Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by zeowyrm
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

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The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

 

Part of the game is fun.  Part of it isn't.  If someone wants to pay in order to skip the un-fun portions, so they can spend more time doing the fun portions, how is that hurting you?

No one is hurting anyone else by playing different games.

Free To Play gamers and Pay to Play gamers belong on different servers.

Just like FFA PvP gamers and those that dont' like FFA PvP.

Originally posted by LadyAlibi

 

f

It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on. 

 

It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.

I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.

Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.

I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.

Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.

If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.

I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LadyAlibi

 

f

It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on. 

 

 

It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.

 

I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.

Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.

I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.

Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.

If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.

I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.

Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a  more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by LadyAlibi

 

f

It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on. 

 

 

It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.

 

I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.

Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.

I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.

Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.

If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.

I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.

Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a  more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception. 

That's not really something I worry about.

Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.

Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.

If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.

Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by Kyleran

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by LadyAlibi

 

f
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on. 
 

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It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
 
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.

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Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a  more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception. 

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That's not really something I worry about.
Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.
Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.
If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.
Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
 

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I so agree with Kyleran.
P2P and cash shop games are here since many years. Cash shop games are fine for casual game hoppers. You don´t need to buy a client or a sub. You just play the game a bit, and if you like it, you play a bit longer + maybe donate the devs for their work.
In my opinion the real problem are these "hybrid" games. You buy the client, pay a sub, and on top of this one day a cash shop opens. Currently Electronic Arts is very good at it and a few others too.

Originally posted by zeowyrm

Originally posted by qombi

 

Well, the whole vote with your wallet thing counts doesn't it?  I didn't think WoW was fun anymore, I stopped paying my sub.  I didn't enjoy RoM, didn't spend money on its cash shop.  I like DDO.  Its a nice casual game.  Can't play it for more then a week or so before i get bored, but it's fun enough during that week that I don't mind tossing Turbine 5-10 bucks.  The grinding of the same content in DDO, over and over and over again to earn enough of the currency to buy things in the shop? Not fun.  Playing through the content once or twice is fun to me though, and for that fun, I don't mind paying a little.

Lotro is a game I used to enjoy.  I didn't care for the LI grind and various other changes, but I'll definitely reinstall it when it goes hybrid and try it out.  Will I invest money in it?  Probably.  If I'm having fun.  If not, I won't.  Its very simple for me.

^ This.

Well said.

I agree with the OP if we were talking about PacMan or Pong. You either like it or not. It would be a little silly to pay to skip it just to see the endscreen.

MMORPGs however, usually have different features and even different playstyles. So lets say, if someone is interested in PVP but has to grind a toon to max lvl in PVE for that. Then that player maybe would like to skip the PVE. With PVP having no ending, it could still be worth it to pay a sub AND pay to skip the PVE.

I would find that a waste of money tbh, but I cant speak for others. Its not as black and white as the OP claims.

To the OP:  It's a false dichotomy to claim that "If I don't do X, they will do Y" as in "If I don't spend money on F2P games, they'll make more P2P games".  If I take the elitist approach you're advocating, I might be saving money but I'd have no online games to play, since there are no current P2P/B2P games I want to pay for atm.  That might change, but without some kind of game-changing innovation, I'm not holding my breath.  SWTOR, GW2, FFXIV don't really interest me for a variety of reasons.  Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I am one of the (I guess exceedingly rare) people who don't care if my toon is competitive, don't care if other people can access content or get items that I can't.  Don't care if it's sandboxy, don't care if it's not. Don't care if grouping is forced, don't care if it's not.  If a game has a way for me to spend time enjoyably, I'll play it till I stop enjoying it.  I've never made it to "endgame" in any online game I've played -- I get bored of all of them eventually.  The closest I got was a lvl 52 hunter back when WOW's level cap was 60.  I prefer f2p over p2p because I have total control over how much I pay for the amount of fun I'm having.  Sometimes (most of the time) it's $0 for some nonzero amount of fun.  Occasionally I like an F2P enough to spend some money on it.

So yeah. I'm going to keep playing F2Ps and spending money in them, cuz that's what I want to do.  If that doesn't make sense to you, well, I guess it's a good thing that your approval or understanding isn't necessary to me having the kind of fun I want.

Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by zeowyrm
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

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The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

 

Part of the game is fun.  Part of it isn't.  If someone wants to pay in order to skip the un-fun portions, so they can spend more time doing the fun portions, how is that hurting you?

 ^^^ THIS

You dont need to find every single aspect and every single second spent in the game to be fun or enjoyable to like the game overall. And your argument about skipping to the last 10 minutes of the movie are ridiculous. There is no point to a movie other than to get the story, where in a game there are dozens of other things to do besides paying attention to the story (most of which you dont need to know a single thing about the story to do), especially when the story isnt that good or you just dont care for story. If all i cared about was a story, i would go watch a movie or read a book. Im here to play the game and have fun, so if i dont want to waste hours and hours doing something that i dont feel is worth my time, and can pay a measly few bucks to get past it, then yeah ill take that route rather than putting myself through doing something i dont want to do.

 I feel this is what OP means excactly, you pay for a extra service to "skip parts you don't like" instead of trying to convince developers to change those part you don't like into things you might like, but aslong people will keep paying to so-called "skip the parts they don't like for extra cash" so will developers continue to put stuff in your way so that you WILL pay the extra cash to skip it again. Obviously no game can be 100% pure fun there are always elements that some might not find fun and some might find fun.

Unfortunaly I think many simply don't see that and for some reason asume that OP or maybe even me want everyone to play or have fun the way I or OP might want to have fun, yet this topic aint about that, it's about trying to let people see it differently.

The only thing I and anyone would care about would be a fun game experiance, yet we keep seeing people using the excuse to skip the unfun part by using cashshops, not knowing that this gives developers the tools to create more "unfun" things in their games cause they have found the new "excuse crowed" who will pay them extra to skip the unfun parts instead of taking a stand to make developers think twice instead of putting in unfun stuff to create something more fun.

Unfortunaly I have seen that many things in a MMORPG seems to be considered unfun to many people who play these games, kinda the reason why this genre has become pretty limited in options and only slightly go beyond regular multiplayer games. Cause whooohooo we still have the people that will continue to play those games even with unfun stuff in it cause YAY! they will pay regardless to skip it.

And to the person saying he doesn't care about the "next person" I think many of us would agree, I don't care how much money some player puts in a game, all I care for is if the game is fun to play for myself, but there is no denying it does hurt this industry seeing the "excuse crowed" playing it. If only for developers giving them more tools to put unfun stuff in their itemmall games.

Originally posted by Herodes

 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by Kyleran

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp

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Originally posted by LadyAlibi

 

f
It's a bogus argument that the whole game isn't worth playing if you take a shortcut here or there. If that were the case, pay to play games must suck just as badly, considering all the powerleveling and twinking that goes on. 
 

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It's never a bogus argument that different people enjoy different things.
 
I don't power level or twink in P2P games, but I also dont' mind it, because everything used to powerlevel or twink was earned INSIDE the game.
Even people buying gold from gold sellers in a P2P game isnt' as bad as an Item shop, because all the gold was earned INSIDE the game.
I like a game world where the outside world has no influence over the game world. The gold, items, xp, character leveling, everything is determined INSIDE the game world.
Really, it's no different than some people don't like games with instances, some people don't like loading screens, some people don't like FFA PvP, some people don't like RvR, some people life Fantasy, some people like Sci Fi, and so on.
If you like F2P and purchasing items, that's fine with me, and I hope you enjoy your game and your items.
I would hope you'd tell me the same thing, that if I enjoy P2P, you hope I enjoy my subscription and playing the game where everything must be earned INSIDE the game.

---

Except unfortunately it appears we're going into a cycle where a  more hybrid model of sub + cash shop will quickly become the norm, rather than the exception. 

---

 
That's not really something I worry about.
Let's say I like Pizza. Maybe people that open up restaruants have decided Seafood is the way to make money, and all they open up is seafood restaruants.
Well, if I'm alregic to Seafood that doesn't do me any good, but I'm happy if other people go eat some seafood and enjoy it.
If they open up more Pizza restaruants I'll eat at them, if they don't, then I won't.
Obviously no matter how many Seafood restaruants open, and if all the Pizza joints go out of business, I'm still not going to eat at the seafood restaraunt if I'm allergic to seafood.
 

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First of all please stop all these analogies. You never can apply them 100% into the topic you discuss or it is so universal that people form counter arguments out of it.

I so agree with Kyleran.
P2P and cash shop games are here since many years. Cash shop games are fine for casual game hoppers. You don´t need to buy a client or a sub. You just play the game a bit, and if you like it, you play a bit longer + maybe donate the devs for their work.
In my opinion the real problem are these "hybrid" games. You buy the client, pay a sub, and on top of this one day a cash shop opens. Currently Electronic Arts is very good at it and a few others too.

 

I don't see any problem with that at all.

You are paying 15 bucks a month to access the game. If it changes in a way you don't like, you quit playing.

If it were me, the day the open the cash shop is the day I would quit the game.

They lose one sub, they make it up in item sales, whatever, that's fine.

You want to pay a sub AND have an item shop, then keep playing. If you don't like that, quit.

I'm going to play TOR, unless there's an item shop with anything in it that has usefulness in the game. If they are selling something that changes your lightsaber color, ok, I'll put up with that.

If they are selling xp potions, gear, weapons, armor, transportation, anything at all with any stats, I simply won't play.

If I start playing and they ad a cash shop with items that have stats, boost xp, etc., I will quit that same day.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

 Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

 This has my vote for the post of the year.

Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

Originally posted by kb4blu

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

 Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

 This has my vote for the post of the year.

Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

Here you go.

Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

Originally posted by qombi

I don't care how much time you think you are saving by buying pixels.

hmmm, I keep seeing people try to use this idea that "pixels" aren't anything of substance therefore they should treated in perhaps some other manner? I'm not sure.

Why make the differentiation other than to trivialize it in the face of an arguement?

Why play video games in the first place as they are just pixels? Same with movies? why buy music as they are just sound waves.

The "buying" of pixels is just as real as buying a movie, buying a video game, buying music. it is a visual representation of something and in the context of a game world that representation has value.

As far as whether or not people should not play games if they don't have the time, I hallf agree.

If the game is a "harder" game (whatever that means) then so be it. If players dont' like it then move on.

but since game companies are adding cash shops as "added value" the point is moot. There is a market and they are filling the market. Players don't need to reconsider whether they should be playing games when game makers/businesses have recognized the market and are rushing to fill it.

How they do this is another thing entirely. However, since players have been using real world money to purchase things in video games regardless of the inclusion of a cash shop, people have proven that there is a market outside of developer approved virtual items.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by kb4blu

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

 Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

 This has my vote for the post of the year.

Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

Here you go.

Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

 

what? do you think that when you transfer money from one accuont to another or from one institution to another they go to some box in a basement, count out actual paper and move it?

What you have there is a representation of a one hundred dollar bill. Paper money (at least when it started being used) was the circulated medium for the gold and silver standard.

and as I've said, people need to reasses value in "pixels" as it has as much real value as an actual paper note. meaning that if the people who have the item in question believe in its value and the backer of that item have established a value then it has value.

but again, if you question the value of pixles then you might also question the value of going to the movies or music.

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by Mehve
And what about the P2P's that deliberately stretch their grind out so you'll subscribe for another month?
Honestly, this "rebuttal" applies just as much to some P2P games as it does to some cash-shop games. The difference is that paying $15/month in the cash-shop game can get you a reduced grind so you can spend more time playing the more enjoyable parts, whereas your $15/month for some P2P's still leaves you at square one against the grind.
But yes, as always, nothing changes until we speak with our wallets.

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You are exactly right it would apply to what you said as well. I agree, if you don't like how long a p2p game takes as well definitely quit it. I do not support games I do not enjoy. I definitely will not pay extra in an item shop to skip a game I do not have time to play or want to play parts of.

ALL consumer products and services EVOLVE depending on outside influences.. If demands change, therefore the company must change with it.  Sounds to me what your'e saying is that companies are not allow to change their products, or services or how they do business because YOU said so..  It is YOUR belief that you will not pay into cash shops.. That is your option.. However, not everyone has to go thru LIFE as you do..

This is about as silly as me asking people to not pay $10 a ticket for a movie when it first come out because " I " don't believe in it's value..  Some people view grinding in a game the same as "waiting" in line.. If  one can pay extra to spring ahead in line.. OH WELL..  Can I offer some of your advice back at you.. Obviously you do not agree with people who use cash shops.. so why are YOU SUPPORTING the company that does business with them? 

Originally posted by Rydeson
 Some people view grinding in a game the same as "waiting" in line.. If  one can pay extra to spring ahead in line.. OH WELL.. 

There is already a real world example of that. Peterpan buslines has it so that a person can pay an additional fee and can get on the bus before a person who was in line first. I believe it's called priority seating.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by kb4blu

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 

 Unfortunately the wallets speaking loudest are those that don't care if their actions lead to all MMOs becoming crap.

 This has my vote for the post of the year.

Of course you can pay me money and I will vote for another post.

Here you go.

Sure, it's just pixels, but hey, people spend money on pixels in F2P games all the time, so what's the difference?

 

what? do you think that when you transfer money from one accuont to another or from one institution to another they go to some box in a basement, count out actual paper and move it?

What you have there is a representation of a one hundred dollar bill. Paper money (at least when it started being used) was the circulated medium for the gold and silver standard.

and as I've said, people need to reasses value in "pixels" as it has as much real value as an actual paper note. meaning that if the people who have the item in question believe in its value and the backer of that item have established a value then it has value.

but again, if you question the value of pixles then you might also question the value of going to the movies or music.

It's a joke. Don't be so serious all the time. Read the original post. The guy is talking about changning his vote for money. On a forum. Where nobody gives a shit who he votes for. So I'm offering him what his vote is worth. Nothing.

Originally posted by qombi

 

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Originally posted by zeowyrm
If, as you say, games are entertainment, wth do you care how we enjoy them?

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The thing is you are not enjoying the games. You are paying for the game, expansions, monthly fee if any, and then paying extra to skip the game. Apparently you didn't have time to read the whole post or you would realize this post was meant to show if you didn't buy into this, you would get the games you want without these grinds and time constraints you want to buy your way through.

Keep buying in that cash shop, you are only hurting yourself.

But I am enjoying the games I play. Other wise I'd not play them. P2P, F2P or some hybrid doesn't matter to me as long as they are entertaining. I have no problem with Dev's of games I enjoy makiing money from their years of hard work.  I use the cash shop in games I enjoy,  so that the games Dev's make a profit.  If you do not like F2P games, don't play them. Its really just that simple.