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News & Features Discussion  » General: I've A Feeling We're Not In Kansas Any More

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98 posts found
  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
6/07/10 12:45:18 PM#1

A long-time observer of the F2P sector, columnist Richard Aihoshi comments on the news that LOTRO will change its business model.
 

The title of today's column comes from The Wizard of Oz. Newly arrived in a completely unfamiliar land, Dorothy says these words to her dog Toto, then after a pause, follows with "We must be over the rainbow!"

In my December column that looked back at a number of 2009's noteworthy trends in the free to play space, I included SOE and Turbine entering it with Free Realms and DDO respectively. Naturally, I also wondered what they would do this year. In the latter company's case, we got a rather dramatic and very interesting answer when the announcement came out on Friday that The Lord of the Rings Online will convert to F2P in the fall, both here in North America and also in Europe where it's published by Codemasters. The change is also sure to be welcome by operators in other parts of the world, such as Mail.Ru in the Russia / CIS region where subscription is only a small part of the overall MMOG market.

I wouldn't say we've gone over the rainbow, but when I saw the news, the quoted words came to mind because one of my first reactions was a feeling we may have arrived in a land some will find rather unfamiliar, one where it's suddenly a lot harder to disavow or ignore the legitimacy of the F2P market sector.

Read I've A Feeling We're Not In Kansas Any More.

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 8760

EVE in 2013 - DUST 514, CSM8, Fanfest, 10th Anniversary, Uprising, Odyssey. Gonna be a good year :)

6/07/10 12:57:40 PM#2

Trivia Answer: Middle Earth Online by Sierra Online

filmoret: One thing I have never figured out is why the game devs hardly ever fix simple problems that arise. It is like they don't care about the pvp community.

Nitth: What makes you so sure its a simple fix?

filmoret: Because most of them are. Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables. However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 3820

6/07/10 1:11:27 PM#3

I think someone, somewhere, maybe Turbine or another company, needs to change the terminology. Hearing the term FTP causes extreme reactions and for good cause. Perhaps a new nomenclature defining this FTP/Subscription hybrid Turbine has come up with will do wonders for the industry. It does wonders in the business world when a company changes it's name in order to start "fresh" so to speak.

I say this because look at all the knee jerk reactions from people across the boards and games on this news. You would think the game is going FTP only with no sub option. It isn't, it's just giving the people who don't pay subscriptions a "way" into the game via a la carte purchases. This is a good thing, as it brings in a new crowd while not hurting the current "subscriber" crowd. At least in theory. Hence, again, the need for a terminology change. The term FTP is too derogatory otherwise.

I just hope this helps the whole industry, especially the side that makes the FTP games. Maybe it will give them better incentive to design their games based on a subscriber model with a la carte payment options as a choice. This would increase their value and QUALITY which is what is truly lacking from all FTP games.

I said it in another post, if I took any FTP and compared it to one of todays popular AAA PTP games, it is extremely easy to see the difference and why PTPs are just better in QUALITY. Even the popular FTPs don't compare in any way.

For example compare Allods Online, Perfect World, SUN, Runes of Magic with say EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, FFXI and Eve. Seems pretty simple to me. Now imagine if the above mentioned FTPs built there games the same way as the AAA PTP games, quality wise and add Turbines new payment model to them and BOOM, that's progress and everyone's happy.

To sum up my rant, the term FTP either needs to change completely or the FTP companies need to change to match Turbines hybrid model.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 5872

6/07/10 1:12:01 PM#4

I just knew we would hear Richard gloating about this announcement.  Kind of funny because Turbine does not do true free to play games.  Both DDO and Lotro will still be subscription games, just with a f2p option.    DDO actualy improved the number of subscriptions when they made the change, I am sure that Turbine is expecting the same thing to happen with Lotro.

There are no I win items in Turbines item shops, not like all the eastern varieties, which the majority of us flat out hate.

  thinktank001

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1610

6/07/10 1:12:17 PM#5

(c)  Turbine realized they will not be able to increase the value of their product without incurring substantial cost, and decided to make it the " Wii " of MMOs. 

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
6/07/10 1:15:41 PM#6
Originally posted by Ozmodan


I just knew we would hear Richard gloating about this announcement. 

 

Yes... Shocking that the guy who gets paid to write about the F2P industry would write about the biggest piece of F2P news in recent memory.

Also, I wouldn't see it as gloating. You DO understand that Mr. Aihoshi has no personal stake in the F2P industry other than the fact that he writes about it, right?

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  SnarlingWolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2208

6/07/10 1:20:51 PM#7

Yes companies are switching to free to play Richard, and yes we all knew they would despite the fact many of us hate the model and won't play it. The reason is simple by going "Free" to play, your profits increase dramatically, simply because there's so many people out there who love to spend hundreds of dollars in one month on pixels. One guy spending 200 bucks in a month and 10 subscribers quitting over the f2p move = more profit to the company.

 

This doesn't mean the model is better, or even more enjoyable for gamers. All it means is there are enough crazy people out there that will spend a fortune each month on your game if you provide a way for them to do it.

 

I'll still stick to much subscriber only MMOs, and when there's none left I will simply be done with MMOs. I haven't bought a console game in a long time because I know every game will have a few hours of content and then will release DLC and make you pay several times over for what you should of got in the first place.

 

I might be in the minority, but I will stick to my principles and not do an item shop game (even if it has a sub option, and even if most of the items are cosmetic). And I will not buy games that have little content but have DLC packs to make up for it. Perhaps one day I will simply be done with gaming, at that point I'll be older and have more important things to worry about so it probably won't matter much anyways.

  Normandy7

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6120

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

6/07/10 1:22:03 PM#8

Lotro is just an average game that most people feel is not worthy of a subscription fee. So in order to maximize profit they will make f2p to increase the player base as well as hopefully increase profit. From a business perspective it is a smart move but from a players perspective it jst makes you want to hurl.  Notice how Turbine has not come out and say we are actually going to try to improve our game to make it better for players. Instead, they will just try to squeeze whatever money they can out of people before better mmos release.

  User Deleted
6/07/10 1:23:12 PM#9

Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "

So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.

I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.

  dealaka

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/05
Posts: 21

6/07/10 1:24:14 PM#10

Honestly, I think there's something else to bear in mind as well. Dungeons and Dragons Online went free as well. People stated this was going change the F2P market as well. Has it? Probably not by much. By making Lotro F2P as you said, I think they're trying to establish a siege fortress in a land of houses. People who liked Lotro will play it now, and if they don't want to pay then they don't have to.

I think it's an attempt to increase 'subscription' numbers to be closer with what WoW claims to have. I say claims to have because we can't tell how many accounts are average for WoW.  That being said we must look at quality of the product after it goes F2P. This is a big sticking point.

We can look at another F2P game Guild Wars and Dungeons and Dragons Online (the red headed half brother of Lotro). In both cases, although there are content releases we have to understand that the staff will probably shrink, significantly so. People are playing 'for free' so they can justify things that way. Furthermore the company is not going to reveal which products they think are as profitable as they should be, so this might be an attempt to 'give love' to some of the games that are not doing so hot or even just buy themselves time to disappear off the 'you're in the WoW class but you can't beat it.'

By dropping off the radar at least temporarily it going to make the other large games consider why they would do it, or even underestimate the change. They celebrate and are not expecting the developers of Lotro 'to pull a rabbit out of their well you know'. As you said, we won't know for sure for several months. I do think however, many players will object to Lord of the Rings Online going free considering how Dungeons and Dragons Online went free. I don't believe we've heard the last of this story. And more then likely we're going to see some interesting fireworks come July.

  User Deleted
6/07/10 1:25:07 PM#11
Originally posted by Stradden

Originally posted by Ozmodan


I just knew we would hear Richard gloating about this announcement. 

 

Yes... Shocking that the guy who gets paid to write about the F2P industry would write about the biggest piece of F2P news in recent memory.

Also, I wouldn't see it as gloating. You DO understand that Mr. Aihoshi has no personal stake in the F2P industry other than the fact that he writes about it, right?

 

I'd hardly say he has no stake in it ;-) Even if it is not a material stake, he is clearly biased towards it rather than against it, which means he has some form of stake in it on a personal level.

I happen to agree with much of what he says though, even going a lot further.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 3820

6/07/10 1:27:13 PM#12


Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.

That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.

Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6055

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

6/07/10 1:40:15 PM#13

Nice write up Richard, I found it very insightful.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  Lobotomist

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4364

I got so much
trouble on my mind
Refuse to lose.

6/07/10 1:43:16 PM#14
Originally posted by elocke

 


Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.

That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.

Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.

 

I am curious. How would you name this new model ?

F2P means free to play.

The game is free to play with no additional costs and when ever you want.

But then not everything in the game itself is free.

 

Its like if resturant will advertise free meal. And in fact pasta and salads are free but meats cost money. Its still free meal , but not all offered is free.

 

Its pointless. Lets just agree its called F2P its easier that way

 

 

 

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 3820

6/07/10 1:45:51 PM#15


Originally posted by Lobotomist


Originally posted by elocke
 



Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.



That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.
Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.

 


I am curious. How would you name this new model ?
F2P means free to play.
The game is free to play with no additional costs and when ever you want.
But then not everything in the game itself is free.
 
Its like if resturant will advertise free meal. And in fact pasta and salads are free but meats cost money. Its still free meal , but not all offered is free.
 
Its pointless. Lets just agree its called F2P its easier that way
 
 
 

Obviously not pointless if every one keeps posting hate threads about FTPs and thinking this hybrid model is the same which it isn't by any stretch. I don't know what to name it, that's why I stated someone or Turbine needs to come up with a new term. Let the marketing guys come up with something that's why they get paid. :D

  astoria

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/08
Posts: 1685

6/07/10 1:51:22 PM#16

"Let's make a couple of seemingly reasonable assumptions. One is that Turbine and parent Warner Bros. believe LOTRO will benefit from going F2P; i.e. that the game is seen as having greater long-term potential via the change. The other is that they are pretty confident this will be so. Why would they make the shift if they felt unsure? This is, after all, their flagship MMOG - and there's no heir apparent in sight.

Then, let's ask ourselves what this decision likely indicates about the western free to play market. Which of these scenarios seems to make more sense?
(a) The F2P market is small and unimportant, just like its detractors make it out to be.
(b) The F2P market is considerably larger and more important than they think it is. "
 
(c) As detractors have been saying all along, the F2P market is anything but free. In fact, consumers will pay more to play a 'free' to play game than a pay to play.
 
There. Fixed.
 
DDO doesn't seem to have anything that is game breaking, so hopefully this would be good for the game.
 
I'm not a die-hard anti-f2Per.  As long as devs are up-front about what will be and wont be paid for, I'll judge based on game play.
 

 

"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  Kothoses

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/08/10
Posts: 608

6/07/10 2:03:12 PM#17

For once a nicely written summary of the weeks events.

 

 

I think the problem with acceptance of free to play in the west is that f2p games are generally viewed as being a subpar product that lacked initial investment, and generally they are, though there are some diamonds too.  Combined with the fact a lot of the more morally questionable publishers/Developers making them essentially P2w and pvp centric or Pay to win at pve end game, the latter being just as insidious as the former, by allowing people to bypass the Gear up phase of endgame play in an mmo they inflate the feeling of awesomeness for a short while.

 

The real problem is that people who pay to win for a bit then come back in to the pay to play market expecting a similar easy path.  Games like ROM, Allods Perfect world etc have perpetuated the current instant gratification reward me for no skill culture to a similar degree that Wrath of the Lich king did in wow.  Unfortunatel people love short cuts, this is why get rich quick and pyramid schemes net a few people a lot of money and cost a lot of people their life savings.  People want to believe they can become special quickly, they will try to believe it in spite of common sense and this is where they pay to win market prospered.

 

DDO does and hopefully lotro will fly in the face of this conception, the DDO model is great, it promotes cosmetic items and easier leveling but not to a degree that destroys the enjoyment of the end game or the sense of achievement with it.

 

Also the Hybrid model represents a way for struggling MMOs to maybe get back on track if the content is appealing enough, the spectrum of potential players for F2P games or Box only sale games is much bigger than the box and sub model.  Though just ask the Algaclone people, it doesnt always work eh?

 

All in all its an interesting move by turbine, it wont re-write the rule book on its own (sorry but they are just not a big enough player for that) but what it will have is a LOT of companies who ARE big enough players watching with interest.  Between Arena net and Turbine we might just be seeing the next stage in mmo evolution, a step away from the long term sub model and towards nickle and diming players.  Its both a good and a bad thing, there is something to be said for investing in a world and character, but variety is the spice of life.

 

Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  User Deleted
6/07/10 2:03:15 PM#18
Originally posted by elocke

 


Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.


That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.

Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.

 

You can't please both sides of the F2P/Item shop and the P2P people in one game. It's not about the payment methods but about the item shop and that those who prefer the P2P model doesn't want some newbie coming in with a thick wad of cash and reach the same power as them in very little time or instantaneously through the item shop.

It'll never work.

B2P (buy to play) is where the genre will eventually go. And Arena are proving this.

  zeowyrm

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/09
Posts: 779

6/07/10 2:05:25 PM#19
Originally posted by slashbeast
Originally posted by elocke

 


Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.


That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.

Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.

 

You can't please both sides of the F2P/Item shop and the P2P people in one game. It's not about the payment methods but about the item shop and that those who prefer the P2P model doesn't want some newbie coming in with a thick wad of cash and reach the same power as them in very little time or instantaneously through the item shop.

It'll never work.

but that's just it.  You can't walk into DDO and LOTRO and buy a max level uber geared char.  You still have to work for it.  Cash shop items make the work easier, that's all.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 3820

6/07/10 2:05:43 PM#20


Originally posted by slashbeast


Originally posted by elocke
 



Originally posted by slashbeast
Like a previous poster mentioned F2P terminology needs to be renamed to FTPIS. " Free To Play Item Shop "
So while the game is still free to play, you still have to pay money to progress.
I'll never play an item shop game, never ever ever. FTPIS can be popular all they want, but I'll not buy into them.



That's not what I meant. You are still seeing the FTP in this and not the fact that the P2P options are still there. You can still subscribe as usual and get what you got before. Think about it. Terminology does need to be changed but not to something like FTPIS which are basically item shops at their core. Lotro isn't going to be an itemshop at its core any more than EQ2 or WoW is.
Above posts are all proving my point. Knee jerk reactions to the FTP terminology. Amazing.


 
You can't please both sides of the F2P/Item shop and the P2P people in one game. It's not about the payment methods but about the item shop and that those who prefer the P2P model doesn't want some newbie coming in with a thick wad of cash and reach the same power as them in very little time or instantaneously through the item shop.
It'll never work.

Really? One game comes to mind where it works. DDO

Plus, like the poster above me said, you can't come into these games and just buy your way to the top. Once again, with the FTP stereotype. These must go by the wayside.

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