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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why Instances bad?

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138 posts found
  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

5/07/10 2:29:15 PM#121
Originally posted by Daywolf

Bottom line though, instancing is not mmorpg, plain and simple. When you add instancing to the element of a game, it furthers the game away from being an actual mmorpg. I'm not worried about apartment/housing instancing, but gameplay is a serious issue. It ends the persistent world, replaces it with off-line/multi-player environments. That is just not mmorpg.
 
Of course that can also be cheated on, like when EQ2 made zones, instancing them to up to 100 players each (but usually were much less). That is just horrid design, cheating to skimp on the content, sad sad sad for a AAA publisher/developer. Or maybe a cross between bad design and hand holding nanny intervention.

 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

  Daywolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 754

Woof!

5/07/10 2:43:17 PM#122
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Daywolf

Bottom line though, instancing is not mmorpg, plain and simple. When you add instancing to the element of a game, it furthers the game away from being an actual mmorpg. I'm not worried about apartment/housing instancing, but gameplay is a serious issue. It ends the persistent world, replaces it with off-line/multi-player environments. That is just not mmorpg.
 
Of course that can also be cheated on, like when EQ2 made zones, instancing them to up to 100 players each (but usually were much less). That is just horrid design, cheating to skimp on the content, sad sad sad for a AAA publisher/developer. Or maybe a cross between bad design and hand holding nanny intervention.

 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

Instance is only multiplayer, not massively-multiplayer. Instances are not even persistent. It’s like calling Halo an mmorpg…

I have seen more than 50 in one spot outside of a rl town, many times, even on Indian Reservations. rl is "persistent", it's not broken up into zones where certain parts expire after everyone leaves or a script resets or kills it. Heck, if you drive to Vegas and don't see at least 6 people on your journey, time to pull over and wait for the effects to wear off :D

M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3266

Poacher killer.

5/07/10 2:51:41 PM#123
Originally posted by SuperXero89
 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

 You live in a small town or just have a high incidence of "indoor" people?

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

5/07/10 4:04:58 PM#124
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by SuperXero89
 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

 You live in a small town or just have a high incidence of "indoor" people?

 

Just saying you don't typically see hundreds of people roaming around in the wilderness in real life, so that shouldn't be a must for immersion purposes.

In online games, it should be even less likely to see people in certain cases as again, what makes a cave so dark and mysterious if it's currently being raided by 5 separate groups at the same time?

I don't really have an oppinion either way about instances, but it's laughable how instances ruin games for so many people.

  Daywolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 754

Woof!

5/07/10 6:01:23 PM#125
Originally posted by SuperXero89

I don't really have an oppinion either way about instances, but it's laughable how instances ruin games for so many people.

They don't so much ruin games as they ruin game communities. But the ruined game effect is a part of it for some mmorpg players and for some games. Like Guild Wars is perfectly fine instanced, though it's not really an mmorpg (quasi). But an mmorpg is immersive because there are other players you meet while in the game world, just like in rl. Though, if GW had a monthly subscription, I wouldn't bother with it, because like any heavily instance game, it simply becomes a chat room as GW mostly is. I play GW because I play some regular rpg's, but it's no substitute for an actual mmorpg.


Instancing is a solo gamer dream for the most part, that is not what mmorpg's are suppose to be, they were MUD style, where you shared a room/zone/area with other players, or joined up with them. In the end, it has just become poor design for many games, a shortcut to making enough content, while providing a regular rpg game but one they can collect lots of cash for.


In my years, I never had problems when people were in a dungeon already, I didn't go there to play solo, and those there were always looking to add to the group. Now it's about hand holding, making it all fair and available for solo play, everyone getting the same items and all they can carry of it. Instancing has helped to make mmorpg's  anti-social.

M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  dlunas

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/06
Posts: 207

What we need is a few good taters.

5/07/10 11:50:12 PM#126
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by dlunas
Originally posted by Hatedbyall

A cool thing I would like to see Is a random instance maker ...where it always different everytime you enter. ...so it seems like a new place evertime you enter ...we can only dream

Diablo and other dungeon crawlers have that, I think there's actually an MMO that is specifically a dungeon crawler that does that, too.  Highly instanced, though, to the point of not feeling like an MMO, if I recall.  Otherwise, Hellgate London I though had a random dungeon maker.  It looks like that could happen.  The Wurm Online engine is capable of creating an entire continent from scratch, at random.  Star Trek Online has the Genesis program that is constantly creating planets, as well.

a single sentence that does significant damage to that argument imo...  tbh, random dungeon creation probably only really belongs in single player games..

I was just pointing out the handful of games of which I'm aware that already have the random creation going on.  Wasn't using STO specifically as an argument for or against.  I played it in beta and launch, love the space combat, but the ground combat is....barely passable at its best.  I'll probably sub to it once a year or so to check the progress of the game...maybe

dlunas Xfire Miniprofile
  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

5/07/10 11:53:22 PM#127
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by SuperXero89
 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

 You live in a small town or just have a high incidence of "indoor" people?

 

Just saying you don't typically see hundreds of people roaming around in the wilderness in real life, so that shouldn't be a must for immersion purposes.

In online games, it should be even less likely to see people in certain cases as again, what makes a cave so dark and mysterious if it's currently being raided by 5 separate groups at the same time?

 

Because its a source of evil monsters that many people are trying to cull to save their lands, and earn loot in at the same time. What, did you think you were the only band of adventurers in the entire continent? ;) 

  dlunas

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/06
Posts: 207

What we need is a few good taters.

5/08/10 12:27:05 AM#128
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by SuperXero89
 

 

Why is a game an MMORPG only when you see 50 other people camping out on a wall 50 miles down into a dungeon in the middle of nowhere?

 

In real life, how many times do you see five, six, heck even two or three people anywhere outside of a town other than at their own house or in their own car?  How many times are YOU outside of a town yourself?

 You live in a small town or just have a high incidence of "indoor" people?

 

Just saying you don't typically see hundreds of people roaming around in the wilderness in real life, so that shouldn't be a must for immersion purposes.

In online games, it should be even less likely to see people in certain cases as again, what makes a cave so dark and mysterious if it's currently being raided by 5 separate groups at the same time?

 

Because its a source of evil monsters that many people are trying to cull to save their lands, and earn loot in at the same time. What, did you think you were the only band of adventurers in the entire continent? ;) 

I gotta say, if there were roving bands of gnolls/orcs in the forest outside of town, some of which had magical trinkets or tech gear, I have a good handful of former military friends and we'd be hunting them.

dlunas Xfire Miniprofile
  Gavelayde

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/09
Posts: 88

5/08/10 7:14:34 PM#129

We r still talking about wow...right?

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

5/10/10 9:43:59 AM#130
Originally posted by Daywolf
Originally posted by SuperXero89

I don't really have an oppinion either way about instances, but it's laughable how instances ruin games for so many people.

They don't so much ruin games as they ruin game communities. But the ruined game effect is a part of it for some mmorpg players and for some games. Like Guild Wars is perfectly fine instanced, though it's not really an mmorpg (quasi). But an mmorpg is immersive because there are other players you meet while in the game world, just like in rl. Though, if GW had a monthly subscription, I wouldn't bother with it, because like any heavily instance game, it simply becomes a chat room as GW mostly is. I play GW because I play some regular rpg's, but it's no substitute for an actual mmorpg.


Instancing is a solo gamer dream for the most part, that is not what mmorpg's are suppose to be, they were MUD style, where you shared a room/zone/area with other players, or joined up with them. In the end, it has just become poor design for many games, a shortcut to making enough content, while providing a regular rpg game but one they can collect lots of cash for.


In my years, I never had problems when people were in a dungeon already, I didn't go there to play solo, and those there were always looking to add to the group. Now it's about hand holding, making it all fair and available for solo play, everyone getting the same items and all they can carry of it. Instancing has helped to make mmorpg's  anti-social.

 

The thing is, few if anyone is advocating a game that calls itself an MMORPG to be entirely instanced.  People, however, complain about instancing in a game like WoW, where realistically speaking, you only enter an instance when running a dungeon or a raid. Towns and overland areas (the majority of the game) are open to any number of players at any time, and those are the areas in which communities are built around not dungeons and raid locations.

Instancing is not a solo gamer's dream because few if any instances allow a single player to enter and complete them successfuly.  The player has to either meet people outside of the instance who will go with him, or he must look for a group before entering the dungeon. In a nutshell, the player must interact with the community to achieve what he wants, which exactly what players have been doing since Ultima Online -- instance or no instance.

These days, MMORPGs may border on anti-social, but it's not because of instancing.  If anything, instanced encounters is one of the reasons player still interact with one another in today's solo friendly MMORPGs, as instances require a group and groups require cooperation and interaction with the community.  The only thing which really changes is the fact that you can't walk into a dungeon and then find a group.  You have to find a group outside of the dungeon.  Again, this isn't so much because of instancing, but it's moreso because of the way dungeons are designed.  Dungeons are no longer designed to have multiple areas where players can simply sit by a wall, a statue, or a door and pull mobs from a room for hours on end.  These days, dungeons are designed for players to run through them in a linear fashion, which is hard to do when five other groups are running through the same dungeon. 

I remember the days of camp checks in EQ1, and while I miss those days, I miss the grouping more than the lack of instances.  I say that because realistically, interaction with other groups was always minimal.  It usually devolved into, "Hey, they're stealing our kills!" or "Lets go pull that named before those guys do!"   I guess this is fine for overland areas as it's logical to meet players in the wilderness when traveling from town to town, but it looses all logic in a dungeon because what is so special about a exploring a dungeon with 49 other people roaming around?  It's less a dark, foreboding dungeon and more like a loot-based K-Mart.  Instanced areas do well to disguise the "level increase dog and pony show" (quoting that from some article) that many MMORPGs turn into by tricking the player into thinking that he or she and his or her group are the only ones who have explored and conquered a specific area.  To me, that sort of gameplay is far more immersive than grinding bores in some random field while sitting on top of a statue.

In truth, MMORPGs are nowhere near as social as they used to be, and players are nowhere near as helpful or as sociable as they once were, and I think people look to instancing as scapegoat for why MMORPGs are loosing incentives for player interaction because after all, instances = private game world right?  While true, most people tend to forget that "private" game world is also shared by five or so other people who must "interact" with one another to achieve a common goal.  Far more emphasis should be placed on the fact that few MMORPGs go as far as they should in strongly "encouraging" player interaction in all its forms from buying and selling to fighting and looting.  To many developers, MMORPGs are nothing more than cash cows, and to make the most money, developers make these games accessible to the largest audience possible, and by doing so, every player is relatively self sufficient and really does not need to interact with other players in any way.    A lack of encouraged interaction between players is what kills communities, not instancing.

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7941

5/10/10 10:35:41 AM#131

lol!i dont know if the previous poster tried! but athene and those gangbanger tried to organise something in the world of warcraft!do you know what happened 4000 player minimum showed on that server that was spur of the moment thing because if athene had warned a long time in advance full server would have shown up guess what?

nothing happened they tried 69 ways to make it work ,the truth is blizzard server just couldnt handle it!

so yes in theory wow as open world but if you do try to organise stuff and crash server you are the frist one that will get the blame.its the sad truth about wow .yes in theory its an open world and the whole server could be in a big brawl in front of if or sw or any other major citys so it would be what 3500 vs 3500 lol we were just 2000 vs 2000 and the server crashed repetedly

so im sorry but open world just in name isnt an open world .so where is the massive in wow,wintergasp?dalaran?i went there and the average user suffer from a big lag issue.its not the first time you know the limit blizzard put in place in wintergrasp i remember it wasnt there in the beginning!was supposed to be massive guess what!blizzard removed  the massive!

they put a limit! if it was at least to 1000 player total i wou say ok in the 4 figure we can call it massive.

i was in aika we were 1000 on one map and we did duke it out with little to no lag.

but never did the server crash once like it happened in wow .same for jita (eve).when eve did one test a while back they had 1700 in jita ,they own the record for the most concurrent player on one server.

is instance bad!i couldnt care less if its open or instanced!but for crying out loud once a week at least bring in the massive gees or just change the def and just call your game a morpg if you dont want it to be massive(and no the dev definition of massive isnt gona cut it for gamer!)by their definition as long as you have a persistant world the game is massive

but this way of thinking you could have a massive world if you had a bunch chess game in a persistant world!

yep 10000 match of 1v1 chess game constitute a massive game by devlopper definition!

dont know about you but me as a gamer the view of aika shayia,eve is alot closer to the view of what our definition of massive is!

so in the end it doesnt really matter if its instanced or not just bring in the number you tout your game as massive!or dont include the massive word if you plan to just have multiplayer content!

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

5/11/10 10:35:00 AM#132
Originally posted by SuperXero89
 

....many other really good points...

In truth, MMORPGs are nowhere near as social as they used to be, and players are nowhere near as helpful or as sociable as they once were, and I think people look to instancing as scapegoat for why MMORPGs are loosing incentives for player interaction because after all, instances = private game world right?  While true, most people tend to forget that "private" game world is also shared by five or so other people who must "interact" with one another to achieve a common goal.  Far more emphasis should be placed on the fact that few MMORPGs go as far as they should in strongly "encouraging" player interaction in all its forms from buying and selling to fighting and looting.  To many developers, MMORPGs are nothing more than cash cows, and to make the most money, developers make these games accessible to the largest audience possible, and by doing so, every player is relatively self sufficient and really does not need to interact with other players in any way.    A lack of encouraged interaction between players is what kills communities, not instancing.

This poster has it right on.  

If some of you believe that having the 100,000 people standing around waiting for 10 orcs to spawn will create a "better community experience", you're delusional.  

I'd argue that you're actually a lot more likely to talk to another person if you're stuck in a room with 3 people than if you're stuck in a room with 3,000 or 300,000.

There are definitely issues in today's MMO with immersion and community.  But they have nothing to do with instancing.  Instancing is merely technology to support the game.  A lot of the time, instancing isn't even noticeable unless you're paying specific attention.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Daywolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 754

Woof!

5/11/10 7:44:31 PM#133

Originally posted by SuperXero89These days, dungeons are designed for players to run through them in a linear fashion, which is hard to do when five other groups are running through the same dungeon.

 

These days? It's really nothing new, it's the old stagnant RPG gaming that has been around for decades, just now it's stagnating mmorpg's. The only real gain for makers of RPG's is that their games can't be pirated any longer, but a loose-loose for the mmo community that existed.

 

For some games to do that, I don’t give a flying pickle, but when those players QQ (from their RPG boredom) that all games are not like that and publishers/devs listen and morph existing mmo’s into that, it’s simply crap. Then in the end, they quit playing(RPG boredom), they already have a WoW as their real thing, and we see mmo's sliding into the abyss. MMO players play for years and years, just like the MUD players, as some of us were, but playing WoW or any WoW clone isn't to our liking, and people/kids can't respect that. Well just remember, what goes around comes around.
 

M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

5/12/10 4:40:58 PM#134
Originally posted by Daywolf

Originally posted by SuperXero89These days, dungeons are designed for players to run through them in a linear fashion, which is hard to do when five other groups are running through the same dungeon.

 

These days? It's really nothing new, it's the old stagnant RPG gaming that has been around for decades, just now it's stagnating mmorpg's. The only real gain for makers of RPG's is that their games can't be pirated any longer, but a loose-loose for the mmo community that existed.

 

For some games to do that, I don’t give a flying pickle, but when those players QQ (from their RPG boredom) that all games are not like that and publishers/devs listen and morph existing mmo’s into that, it’s simply crap. Then in the end, they quit playing(RPG boredom), they already have a WoW as their real thing, and we see mmo's sliding into the abyss. MMO players play for years and years, just like the MUD players, as some of us were, but playing WoW or any WoW clone isn't to our liking, and people/kids can't respect that. Well just remember, what goes around comes around.
 

RPG gaming?  What RPG gaming?  Pen and Paper? J-RPG?  Western RPG?  LARPING?


Dungeon crawls have been around since before video gaming in the form of pen and paper roleplaying games, but that is entirely irrelevant to the conversation, and I don't understand why you felt the need to bring that up.

As for the rest of your post, stop QQing about fictional people QQing about fictional problems.

  lttexxan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/04
Posts: 483

5/12/10 4:44:19 PM#135

Instances arn't bad...per-say....they just had a troubled childhood.

Constant abuse by the parents can turn any instance bad.

It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.

  Daywolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 754

Woof!

5/12/10 11:53:12 PM#136
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Daywolf

Originally posted by SuperXero89These days, dungeons are designed for players to run through them in a linear fashion, which is hard to do when five other groups are running through the same dungeon.

 

These days? It's really nothing new, it's the old stagnant RPG gaming that has been around for decades, just now it's stagnating mmorpg's. The only real gain for makers of RPG's is that their games can't be pirated any longer, but a loose-loose for the mmo community that existed.

 

For some games to do that, I don’t give a flying pickle, but when those players QQ (from their RPG boredom) that all games are not like that and publishers/devs listen and morph existing mmo’s into that, it’s simply crap. Then in the end, they quit playing(RPG boredom), they already have a WoW as their real thing, and we see mmo's sliding into the abyss. MMO players play for years and years, just like the MUD players, as some of us were, but playing WoW or any WoW clone isn't to our liking, and people/kids can't respect that. Well just remember, what goes around comes around.
 

RPG gaming?  What RPG gaming?  Pen and Paper? J-RPG?  Western RPG?  LARPING?


Dungeon crawls have been around since before video gaming in the form of pen and paper roleplaying games, but that is entirely irrelevant to the conversation, and I don't understand why you felt the need to bring that up.

As for the rest of your post, stop QQing about fictional people QQing about fictional problems.

You read, right? Like signs in the gaming ile where there is an arrow and it reads "RPG"?

It exists, it's not only distributed by torrent file these days.

Oh I can play dense too. PnP?? I never brought up War Gaming...

M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

5/13/10 12:22:46 AM#137
Originally posted by Daywolf
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Daywolf

Originally posted by SuperXero89These days, dungeons are designed for players to run through them in a linear fashion, which is hard to do when five other groups are running through the same dungeon.

 

These days? It's really nothing new, it's the old stagnant RPG gaming that has been around for decades, just now it's stagnating mmorpg's. The only real gain for makers of RPG's is that their games can't be pirated any longer, but a loose-loose for the mmo community that existed.

 

For some games to do that, I don’t give a flying pickle, but when those players QQ (from their RPG boredom) that all games are not like that and publishers/devs listen and morph existing mmo’s into that, it’s simply crap. Then in the end, they quit playing(RPG boredom), they already have a WoW as their real thing, and we see mmo's sliding into the abyss. MMO players play for years and years, just like the MUD players, as some of us were, but playing WoW or any WoW clone isn't to our liking, and people/kids can't respect that. Well just remember, what goes around comes around.
 

RPG gaming?  What RPG gaming?  Pen and Paper? J-RPG?  Western RPG?  LARPING?


Dungeon crawls have been around since before video gaming in the form of pen and paper roleplaying games, but that is entirely irrelevant to the conversation, and I don't understand why you felt the need to bring that up.

As for the rest of your post, stop QQing about fictional people QQing about fictional problems.

You read, right? Like signs in the gaming ile where there is an arrow and it reads "RPG"?

It exists, it's not only distributed by torrent file these days.

Oh I can play dense too. PnP?? I never brought up War Gaming...

In America, our gaming stores don't seperate games by genre, and you still haven't told me exactly what sort of RPG you mean by the blanket term RPG...

  Willyz1234

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 2

http://www.finalhero.com/click.php?id=14

5/13/10 4:42:51 AM#138

http://www.finalhero.com/click.php?id=14

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