Originally posted by stayontarget

Running instance over and over again just so you can get that item you think you need....Thats just not my style man.

It's no better then farming the same mobs over and over in the open world for a loot drop.  It's a problem of itemization and not really one of instances.

Originally posted by FC-Famine

 

This is not a problem though. We have to cater to someone. What makes one side any different than the other side in that retrospect? If we cater to you, then the other side would make the exact same post you're making exclaiming, "Here is the problem!"

Now before someone wise chimes in and says, "Well the difference is in the numbers!" Then you will have to see some truth there. If a good bulk of players don't like to wait and don't want to share then yes, it makes sense to cater to those players. Otherwise, we would cater to a smaller minority where a larger group is exclaiming, "You JUST DONT GET IT!" 

On the other hand, it's possible to have both, but sometimes not so easy to have both. Regardless, it's not really a problem to the bigger picture, only to the individual. This is a massively multiplayer game and we have to cater to as many people as possible, not to just one person -- but many.

It's a pickle of a debate, I like both systems honestly, but that's only because I understand it from both sides of the fence.

 I think that is the main problem we have today. Everyone wants to make a game for the large group and thumb their nose at the smaller group. While all these game companies are fighting each other over the instant gratification, non-community customer base, they all ignore the rest of us. Hopefully one day a company will design a quality MMO for all of us who appreciate a sense of accomplishment and don't mind interacting with others.

Instancing of dungeons is a necessary evil in MMOs. It's the only way to provide a decent environment for a dungeon craw without having to deal with the problem of griefing of other players.

Here's some of the problems of open world end game content:

Unless you are in a high-end guild you can forget about even seeing most of the bosses.

You have to deal with waiting for re-pop timers that are anywhere from 3 hours to 7+ days.

You have to compete with botters/cheaters/exploiters.

You have to deal with people trying to mpk (monster player kill) you in order to claim the boss.

After all this even if the boss drops 3 things 100% of the time, most of the guild will be left with nothing to show for it for months at a time. do to only getting claim a few times.

Compare this to 'wow style' instance dungeons that not only have multiple bosses but also many elite mobs that have a much higher drop rate then open world mobs.

A lot of people on these forums who are looking back at EQ1 or FFXI and remember camping some rare boss and getting the drop are forgetting the times they camped something for months and got nothing to show for it do to not getting claim or the drop. There also was/is many people who did 'end game' for a year+ and only got a few minor trinkets do to not getting in the handful of guilds that have practically full control over all the bosses. I'm not saying their times was completely wasted as most people I knew played to socialize with the friends they made in game, just saying its kinda poor design when your game is a better chatroom then a game.

In the case on instanced 'open world' such as CO and STO that is just really lame and comes off as poor programming and design rather then some attempt to solve a problem

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One thing I want to see in a game like WoW where instancing is used as a main theme; Random generated dungeons. Sure they can keep the normal instances the way they are, but at the same time give players a random dungeon generator that can build an instance based on a groups preferences (sorta like AO's mission terminals).

Seeing as in WoW most people only really care about the badges (points soon) and XP it would be a way to break the monotony of running the same 4 or 5 dungeons over and over.

Originally posted by Naxxa

Instancing of dungeons is a necessary evil in MMOs. It's the only way to provide a decent environment for a dungeon craw without having to deal with the problem of griefing of other players.

Here's some of the problems of open world end game content:

Unless you are in a high-end guild you can forget about even seeing most of the bosses.

You have to deal with waiting for re-pop timers that are anywhere from 3 hours to 7+ days.

You have to compete with botters/cheaters/exploiters.

You have to deal with people trying to mpk (monster player kill) you in order to claim the boss.

After all this even if the boss drops 3 things 100% of the time, most of the guild will be left with nothing to show for it for months at a time. do to only getting claim a few times.

 

 

Dark Age of Camelot had absolutely none of those problems and it didn't have instances. It's all about good game design. Instances are the lazy way out. 

As for the last bit, you STILL have to do raids a million times in WoW to get everyone everything they need. 

And as said before, other games already have randomly generated Dungeons. WoW doesn't because WoW is a very simple and nearly featureless game compared to old MMOs. 

I dont mind Instancing if its used sparingly. Like only for dungeons or something like that. When most of the game is instanced, thats when it bothers me. Like STO. 95 percent of that game is instanced. I cant stand that much instancing.

Originally posted by Cacaphony

I dont mind Instancing if its used sparingly. Like only for dungeons or something like that. When most of the game is instanced, thats when it bothers me. Like STO. 95 percent of that game is instanced. I cant stand that much instancing.

Well why should you have to settle for instanced dungeons? 

For many, they know no other way, but let me tell you, there is almost nothing more enjoyable in an MMO then traveling deep into a dungeon, and tossing together a party of scared adventurers, picking them up along the way, and then becoming conquerors of said dungeon. Some of those random friendships I STILL have from 8 years ago. 

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Originally posted by Garvon3

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Originally posted by Cacaphony
I dont mind Instancing if its used sparingly. Like only for dungeons or something like that. When most of the game is instanced, thats when it bothers me. Like STO. 95 percent of that game is instanced. I cant stand that much instancing.

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Well why should you have to settle for instanced dungeons? 
For many, they know no other way, but let me tell you, there is almost nothing more enjoyable in an MMO then traveling deep into a dungeon, and tossing together a party of scared adventurers, picking them up along the way, and then becoming conquerors of said dungeon. Some of those random friendships I STILL have from 8 years ago. 

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Well, its my preference that I would not have to settle for instancing at all. However, every game pretty much has instancing now, so Im willing to go the next step and tolerate it so long as the game has minimal instancing.... such as only dungeons or what not.

This is a huge reason as to why I cant stand STO. Im hoping and hoping that games coming out will avoid this... but if they dont then i guess im out of luck.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Well why should you have to settle for instanced dungeons? 

For many, they know no other way, but let me tell you, there is almost nothing more enjoyable in an MMO then traveling deep into a dungeon, and tossing together a party of scared adventurers, picking them up along the way, and then becoming conquerors of said dungeon. Some of those random friendships I STILL have from 8 years ago. 

I know what you are talking about and i like it too. Personally i prefer a middle of the road approach though. Have a couple of instanced dungeons but have as much or more shared. Another approach could be to have half the dungons non-instanced and on the rest have the option to either create an instance or go on the shared instance.

The game should have anyway bosses + encounters on the outer shared world anyway, not just normal mobs.

Originally posted by Cacaphony

 

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Originally posted by Garvon3

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Originally posted by Cacaphony
I dont mind Instancing if its used sparingly. Like only for dungeons or something like that. When most of the game is instanced, thats when it bothers me. Like STO. 95 percent of that game is instanced. I cant stand that much instancing.

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Well why should you have to settle for instanced dungeons? 
For many, they know no other way, but let me tell you, there is almost nothing more enjoyable in an MMO then traveling deep into a dungeon, and tossing together a party of scared adventurers, picking them up along the way, and then becoming conquerors of said dungeon. Some of those random friendships I STILL have from 8 years ago. 

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Well, its my preference that I would not have to settle for instancing at all. However, every game pretty much has instancing now, so Im willing to go the next step and tolerate it so long as the game has minimal instancing.... such as only dungeons or what not.

This is a huge reason as to why I cant stand STO. Im hoping and hoping that games coming out will avoid this... but if they dont then i guess im out of luck.

True enough I suppose. I generally hunt for the tiny tiny bit of games that still are uninstanced, but yeah, you have to make concessions or just give up on "MMOs". At least there's still Vangu-er oh wait. Well, at least there's Darkfall :/ but I wish a DAoC style MMO would get made without instances. 

Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

But there will always and ever be a love of the great open outdoors.  I tried EQ2 for a while.  While the instancing wasn't the only reason I quit, it was definitely a significant factor.

 I think why most people hate instancing vs a completly open world is because then they can't pk and grief people as much lol. Argue that all you want but you know there are plenty of people out there that play mmo's for the soul purpose of ruining others enjoyment, and instancing ruins theirs.

(oh is seems the person above me thought the same, it must be true then :P )

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

But there will always and ever be a love of the great open outdoors.  I tried EQ2 for a while.  While the instancing wasn't the only reason I quit, it was definitely a significant factor.

Are there really this many people who think there's no other way? Did all of you play poorly designed MMOs? :/ 

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

But there will always and ever be a love of the great open outdoors.  I tried EQ2 for a while.  While the instancing wasn't the only reason I quit, it was definitely a significant factor.

Are there really this many people who think there's no other way? Did all of you play poorly designed MMOs? :/ 

Yeah .. all of us played EQ.

Seriously, either a) you have a boss that is not popular (with no good loot) and no one cares to fight him, or b) the boss is popular and you need to take a number to wait in line.

And don't give me the crap about having enough content to satisfy everyone. No developers in the world can create enough bosses to 2000 people on a server don't have to fight over them.

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Originally posted by Murashu

Originally posted by FC-Famine

 

This is not a problem though. We have to cater to someone. What makes one side any different than the other side in that retrospect? If we cater to you, then the other side would make the exact same post you're making exclaiming, "Here is the problem!"

Now before someone wise chimes in and says, "Well the difference is in the numbers!" Then you will have to see some truth there. If a good bulk of players don't like to wait and don't want to share then yes, it makes sense to cater to those players. Otherwise, we would cater to a smaller minority where a larger group is exclaiming, "You JUST DONT GET IT!" 

On the other hand, it's possible to have both, but sometimes not so easy to have both. Regardless, it's not really a problem to the bigger picture, only to the individual. This is a massively multiplayer game and we have to cater to as many people as possible, not to just one person -- but many.

It's a pickle of a debate, I like both systems honestly, but that's only because I understand it from both sides of the fence.

 I think that is the main problem we have today. Everyone wants to make a game for the large group and thumb their nose at the smaller group. While all these game companies are fighting each other over the instant gratification, non-community customer base, they all ignore the rest of us. Hopefully one day a company will design a quality MMO for all of us who appreciate a sense of accomplishment and don't mind interacting with others.

That's basically the same point I just made under a different wrapping. You will never be able to please everyone. You have to cater to someone and there will always be a group of people who feel left out. There is just no way around it no matter if you're developing a TV or a massively multiplayer online game.

It's just the nature of the business.

I would love nothing more than my car to have the ability to fly me to work, but I also understand that I'm the minority and would not see this feature added to my car anytime soon. I don't blame the car company for appealing to their primary customer demands, but I do wish they would add it too!

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Originally posted by Murashu

 I think that is the main problem we have today. Everyone wants to make a game for the large group and thumb their nose at the smaller group. While all these game companies are fighting each other over the instant gratification, non-community customer base, they all ignore the rest of us. Hopefully one day a company will design a quality MMO for all of us who appreciate a sense of accomplishment and don't mind interacting with others.

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Who is 'rest of us'? It is not all that black & white and even when you focus at smaller community, it is not homogeneous and there will always be a group of people feeling unhappy about the game.

Many design choices are antinomic and trying to please everyone is a way to failure.

Originally posted by biofellis

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Eindrachen

Instancing is pretty much a neccessity.  It reduces server loads, and does a great job of reducing griefing of certain types (like kill-stealing).

But there will always and ever be a love of the great open outdoors.  I tried EQ2 for a while.  While the instancing wasn't the only reason I quit, it was definitely a significant factor.

Are there really this many people who think there's no other way? Did all of you play poorly designed MMOs? :/ 

Yeah .. all of us played EQ.

Seriously, either a) you have a boss that is not popular (with no good loot) and no one cares to fight him, or b) the boss is popular and you need to take a number to wait in line.

And don't give me the crap about having enough content to satisfy everyone. No developers in the world can create enough bosses to 2000 people on a server don't have to fight over them.

All it takes to make a 'new' boss is to paint a new texture on an old one (if you want) & clone him. Yeah- you could do more, but why bother? People don't care that he pops back up in half an hour, they sure as hell won't care if he has a 'doppleganger' a mile over the hill. Make all variants of the same boss respawn simultaneously so people can't do a circuit, and voila. 2000 people? no prob we'll say 200 per level group (8 levels)- maybe half those guys all want a boss at once (worst case except at high level)- make 10 man raids the norm (we'll say) that's a boss plus 19 total clones for no waiting.

Computers are cool- you could even write a program to vary their looks/colors if you want. Name them according to some convention so people know they don't 'need' a boss the 'killed' if they stumble onto one somewhere they didn't know about.

And all these bosses have lackeys who employ some 'quick jump'/teleport tech, so if there's a queue, you can jump to the next one.

Instances? The same work is done by the machine- it's just the player to player data updates that they cut down. That's cpu & bandwidth- which equals money. Better games cost more.

Course Guild Wars has no sub fee- and they've survived. Who knows what the other guys are doing with their 'allowance'- but I know what they're not doing- they're not trying to get rid of instancing.

Won't work. Just a model of a boss is not an encounter. If you want to duplicate all the fun interaction (like how to fight him), you need to have the same script, same environment, and so on. You may as well have instances.

Plus, you cannot control how many are fighting the boss at once and make tuning difficulty of the encounter impossible.

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