Anyone else in same postion as me? I looking forward to playing SWTOR but not as a MMO. because I don't like themepark MMO's. I like PvP sandbox mmo's. but I loved kotor 1 and 2 as story RPGs, and will be playing SWTOR as if it was kotor3 with CO-OP. however since there will be no decent sandbox/pvp aspects, I will not be subscribing to the game for long I don't think just long enough to play though the storylines like I would with a kotor game. sure I will try out the crafting/pvp and endgame but thats not what bioware is good at or focusing on with swtor so I'm sure they will be rubbish. I guess thats just me I can never go back to playing PvP with autoaim.

I think there might be many people like me who will only sub a month or two and I can see bioware possibly losing alot of money because they are investing alot and banking on people subbing for longer than they will. I wonder if the game will last long time, although I am sure it will sell millions of copies. I can see a simular situation to AoC where 1 million copies sold but no subs retained because there was no decent endgame only a enjoyable level progression. I'm not saying swtor will be like aoc in other ways like bugs/failed promises just lack of long term subs as poor endgame.

If you actually plan on going through all the story then it will take longer than two months.  They've said there's more content there than ALL OF THEIR PAST GAMES PUT TOGETHER.  I'd say you're talking about 8 months at least (one month at least per class).  After that time investment, quitting would require that you find nothing worth staying for in the game, which I personally don't think is very likely.  We'll have to wait and see though.

Originally posted by Drachasor

If you actually plan on going through all the story then it will take longer than two months.  They've said there's more content there than ALL OF THEIR PAST GAMES PUT TOGETHER. 

Honestly, though, don't you think that is really unlikely? That would be a LOT of content. Just consider how much voice acting alone that would entail.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Drachasor

If you actually plan on going through all the story then it will take longer than two months.  They've said there's more content there than ALL OF THEIR PAST GAMES PUT TOGETHER. 

Honestly, though, don't you think that is really unlikely? That would be a LOT of content. Just consider how much voice acting alone that would entail.

It's not like that's one continuous stream of voice acting.  It's a lot of action with interspersed voice acting.  VA is not THAT expensive (compared to the development cost).  So I don't think the voice acting part is honestly that difficult.

I do agree that overall that is a lot of content, but they have a big team and have been working on this for a long time (it will have about 5 and a half years when it is released, assuming no delays).  From everything they've repeatedly said there has been a huge focus on making a lot of content and that's even one of the design principles.  If that's a goal, I don't think it is honestly that hard to reach.  I suppose they could be lying, but I've never known Bioware to really lie about anything; in fact they are very careful to be honest and only talk about features that will be in the final release.  Also, people lying about their MMOs usually show themselves in failing to have those lies line up into a coherent vision for the game, and that's not the case here.  Liars also tend to want to promise the moon and tons of features, but Bioware is clearly still being careful not to talk about things they haven't finalized.  Honestly, I'd be more surprised if they weren't being truthful here.

Edit:  To add further to this and what the OP said.  One of the big design goals of ToR is to essentially make a cooperative RPG that's an MMO and ensure continual content being added.  Far from being a weakness, this is what is going to really sell TOR.  They want the group stuff to feel like an pen and paper RPG and they want to make sure people feel like there is always more story and always more stuff to explore.  They want to avoid people feeling like they are doing the same thing over and over again (which obviously many games aren't worried about, even big ones like WoW).  I honestly think all this is doable, though obviously the bigger the subscriber base the easier it is to do financially.  A good SW game should have an easy time getting a few million subs though.

Edit2:  I have looked it over with a skeptical eye, btw.  What the Devs say really echos my own feelings on what you should be able to experience in an MMO (given technological limitations, of course).  They seem to really understand that an roleplaying experience is important among other things.  Not delivering here or delivering too little would kill their game and they also seem to understand that.  I do admit they get some extra trust out of me because they are Bioware, but I believe they've earned that trust.

Yep, I'm going to play this game because it's Bioware, and it's the old republic. I too loved KOTOR I and II, and was hoping they would develop KOTOR III. First time I heard that the third installment was going to be an MMO I hated the idea.

Nowadays though I don't think it's too bad, especially as the game can be played entirely solo with great storylines to boot, just like I and II. It will be high-quality, at least as an RPG for a couple of months, and if it doesn't succeed as an MMO, I'm sure people would have got their money's worth for it as a single-player RPG.

It's true that quite a few people (mainly fans of KOTOR) aren't going to stay for the long term, but I think the MMO crowd will have no problem sticking with it if it's a good MMO, at least until the "next big thing" launches.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Drachasor

If you actually plan on going through all the story then it will take longer than two months.  They've said there's more content there than ALL OF THEIR PAST GAMES PUT TOGETHER. 

Honestly, though, don't you think that is really unlikely? That would be a LOT of content. Just consider how much voice acting alone that would entail.

KoTOR have ~14,000 lines of spoken dialog, The Old Republic have ~240,000 lines of spolen dialog.

The interview where this information is found was published on December 15th 2009.

Personally i will buy and play TOR because its new and Bioware too, but more than that i will play it because I always try new MMOs and my guildies are with me in that. We are very interested in this game, for the differances that Bioware brings to the genre, but also for the things that remain the same. We like raiding like most guilds but what we are really looking forward to is some pvp with a differance. I am no expert, but it seems to me that Bioware are abandoning the classic trinity for something else. That should at least make our pvp refreshing.

Skeptical Schmeptical....

TOR will be a great game.  BioWare knows better than to release crap and they are well aware of the GLOBAL following that Star Wars entails.  Of course they will be rolling out initially with a focus on story and combat, this is what drives most of our attention, but its expected to see new systems and a deeper community integration as the game grows.

Their blueprint is so perfectly tested and laid out from before that they'd have to miss by a galactic proportion for this game not to be great.

Give me an MMO with even 15% of the story and immersion that KOTOR had and I'd subscribe for life.

Originally posted by impulsebooks

I am no expert, but it seems to me that Bioware are abandoning the classic trinity for something else. That should at least make our pvp refreshing.

Best I and others can tell based on what they've said, classes will have roles in combat, but they won't be super-specialized the way you see in WoW, EQ, or the like.  Consulars will be able to heal others for instance, but they won't spam heals and will need to melee to perform optimally.  It's not 100% clear, but it seems like beyond damage you can then make some choices about whether you want more survivability, some more damage, some CC, healing, etc.  In any case, it doesn't look like even guys who can take more punishment than others will be tanks in the traditional sense (e.g. they won't be grabbing the aggro of everything that isn't pinned down by CC).  IMHO, there's a lot more tactical consideration in a system with lighter specialization than you see in the Trinity, and so TOR looks very good to me in this respect (well, in a lot of other respects as well).

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Drachasor

If you actually plan on going through all the story then it will take longer than two months.  They've said there's more content there than ALL OF THEIR PAST GAMES PUT TOGETHER. 

Honestly, though, don't you think that is really unlikely? That would be a LOT of content. Just consider how much voice acting alone that would entail.

No not when they can make billions of dollars if they get it right.... Actors are 10 a penny.... The writing will cost more.

Game releases in 2011. EQ was a themepark and there was years worth of content there. Even WoW has enough content (if you actually bother to do it rather than solo run to 80 then fish while you sit in que), why would BioWare/EA drop this much money on development and take this long just to make a game with giant content holes?

I think you must be confusing BioWare with Cryptic if you think that 2 months of regular play is going to exhaust the content in this one.

It's nice that you've decided and everything like the game comes out tomorrow, but just as a heads-up, we still have a year to release and plenty of information has yet to be released. That means I wouldn't count out "sandboxy aspects" yet, and we know that PvP is going to be in the game in one form or another. Not hardcore PvP like the golden turd the quote under your avatar mentions, but (hopefully) fun PvP in the form of RvR (done right). You may not be able to go back to autoaim, but more than enough people never left to begin with.

I can see your point about BioWare's strengths, but this is a different BioWare studio (which can be good and bad) and they seem to know what they're doing. We do have to wait for more information until we start making final judgments or predictions, and that's what I suggest you do as well.

Lots of doom prophecy and baseless predictions in the OP's post.

But heck, play whatever way you want.

By itself, SWTOR benefits from the lack of a good Star Wars MMO on the market (sorry SWG!).  By itself, I'm confident there are many people who want very badly to be involved in a Star Wars MMO, even if the combat is mediocre.  Combine this with the proven quality of Bioware to deliver a Star Wars game, and I believe SWTOR will be just fine.  That being said, I do believe there will be some vet mmorpgers who will play SWTOR and be turned off by the narrative play.  

Originally posted by Comnitus

It's nice that you've decided and everything like the game comes out tomorrow, but just as a heads-up, we still have a year to release and plenty of information has yet to be released. That means I wouldn't count out "sandboxy aspects" yet, and we know that PvP is going to be in the game in one form or another. Not hardcore PvP like the golden turd the quote under your avatar mentions, but (hopefully) fun PvP in the form of RvR (done right). You may not be able to go back to autoaim, but more than enough people never left to begin with.

I can see your point about BioWare's strengths, but this is a different BioWare studio (which can be good and bad) and they seem to know what they're doing. We do have to wait for more information until we start making final judgments or predictions, and that's what I suggest you do as well.

Lets be honest here, Bioware really doesn't sound like they've invested all that much effort into the aspects of the game that don't include combat or story. The fact they've barely mentioned them and have only said that they've got all the usual mmo features in a passing statement hints towards this. Especially since they said they're focusing on displaying the story because it's their most innovating feature. Sounds an awful lot like they're there purely for the sake of it and serve no real purpose within the game apart from making it a "mmo".

I honestly wouldn't hold my breath for amazing content outside the storylines.

I think more than half of the mmo players aren't playing games they loved anymore so I wonder how or why the amount of time one plays is relevant, I can understand your thinking because I felt that way about STO I knew I wouldn't make it more than a month or two I just hoped it was fun and that the bottom didn't drop out too suddenly even though it did.  Where as Bioware is concerned though I've played many of there games for even longer than I played STO and given that they say this game will have more content than all other games they made combined I expect to be kept quite busy and entertained for atleast a half a year or probably more and for me that's all I can really ask for for my investment, if they keep me entertained as long as I sub or even want to that's fine with me.

Originally posted by Consensus

Anyone else in same postion as me? I looking forward to playing SWTOR but not as a MMO. because I don't like themepark MMO's. I like PvP sandbox mmo's. but I loved kotor 1 and 2 as story RPGs, and will be playing SWTOR as if it was kotor3 with CO-OP. however since there will be no decent sandbox/pvp aspects, I will not be subscribing to the game for long I don't think just long enough to play though the storylines like I would with a kotor game. sure I will try out the crafting/pvp and endgame but thats not what bioware is good at or focusing on with swtor so I'm sure they will be rubbish. I guess thats just me I can never go back to playing PvP with autoaim.

I think there might be many people like me who will only sub a month or two and I can see bioware possibly losing alot of money because they are investing alot and banking on people subbing for longer than they will. I wonder if the game will last long time, although I am sure it will sell millions of copies. I can see a simular situation to AoC where 1 million copies sold but no subs retained because there was no decent endgame only a enjoyable level progression. I'm not saying swtor will be like aoc in other ways like bugs/failed promises just lack of long term subs as poor endgame.

I am looking forward to what i know not what i don't.

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by Comnitus

It's nice that you've decided and everything like the game comes out tomorrow, but just as a heads-up, we still have a year to release and plenty of information has yet to be released. That means I wouldn't count out "sandboxy aspects" yet, and we know that PvP is going to be in the game in one form or another. Not hardcore PvP like the golden turd the quote under your avatar mentions, but (hopefully) fun PvP in the form of RvR (done right). You may not be able to go back to autoaim, but more than enough people never left to begin with.

I can see your point about BioWare's strengths, but this is a different BioWare studio (which can be good and bad) and they seem to know what they're doing. We do have to wait for more information until we start making final judgments or predictions, and that's what I suggest you do as well.

Lets be honest here, Bioware really doesn't sound like they've invested all that much effort into the aspects of the game that don't include combat or story. The fact they've barely mentioned them and have only said that they've got all the usual mmo features in a passing statement hints towards this. Especially since they said they're focusing on displaying the story because it's their most innovating feature. Sounds an awful lot like they're there purely for the sake of it and serve no real purpose within the game apart from making it a "mmo".

I honestly wouldn't hold my breath for amazing content outside the storylines.

Sure it doesn't sound like they have, because they aren't talking about it yet. People expect BioWare to do story well, and they have no problems with flaunting their strength as their main selling point. The other features could be met with more criticism - they are, after all, the features that can be found in every MMO, and so they must compete with every MMO. Before BioWare starts talking about those types of features, they want to make sure what they have is in a state they think is "ready." While that doesn't mean it can't be changed due to player feedback (good or bad), it does mean that what we hear is probably what we'll get. Other MMO companies throw out features that never make it into the game.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Warband

Originally posted by Comnitus

It's nice that you've decided and everything like the game comes out tomorrow, but just as a heads-up, we still have a year to release and plenty of information has yet to be released. That means I wouldn't count out "sandboxy aspects" yet, and we know that PvP is going to be in the game in one form or another. Not hardcore PvP like the golden turd the quote under your avatar mentions, but (hopefully) fun PvP in the form of RvR (done right). You may not be able to go back to autoaim, but more than enough people never left to begin with.

I can see your point about BioWare's strengths, but this is a different BioWare studio (which can be good and bad) and they seem to know what they're doing. We do have to wait for more information until we start making final judgments or predictions, and that's what I suggest you do as well.

Lets be honest here, Bioware really doesn't sound like they've invested all that much effort into the aspects of the game that don't include combat or story. The fact they've barely mentioned them and have only said that they've got all the usual mmo features in a passing statement hints towards this. Especially since they said they're focusing on displaying the story because it's their most innovating feature. Sounds an awful lot like they're there purely for the sake of it and serve no real purpose within the game apart from making it a "mmo".

I honestly wouldn't hold my breath for amazing content outside the storylines.

Sure it doesn't sound like they have, because they aren't talking about it yet. People expect BioWare to do story well, and they have no problems with flaunting their strength as their main selling point. The other features could be met with more criticism - they are, after all, the features that can be found in every MMO, and so they must compete with every MMO. Before BioWare starts talking about those types of features, they want to make sure what they have is in a state they think is "ready." While that doesn't mean it can't be changed due to player feedback (good or bad), it does mean that what we hear is probably what we'll get. Other MMO companies throw out features that never make it into the game.

 I wasn't specifically talking about the fact that the information hasn't been released as i agree with the notion the eevrything should be set in stone before revealing it to the public. However the fact that they know these features probably won't be amazing is what I find worrying.

If you add something to the game it should serve a specific purpose within your game. It shouldn't just be in there because all other games have them it should be specifically designed to compliment and in many ways be integral to systems already within the game. If they were truly intergral to it's systems they would have been mentioned along side the story system as they would serve a unique purpose within the game. 

I mean look at Bioware mentioning light and darkside points granting players special abilities depending on their choices. The story and combat were designed side by side and compliment each other hence they were both equally important to be mentioned.

Saying that the game will have all the usual mmo stuff doesn't hint towards this for the rest of the game as not all mmo features should necessarily work in a game like Tor and could be replaced by features that fit far more better. It sounds like they copy pasted a lot of features while adding a bit of polish to them without wondering if their fundamentally needed or required to be completely altered.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it really doesn't sound like their creating a swtor mmo just a mmo. By that I mean they're not using radically different features that would only work in their mmo outside of their story and combat that can't just be copy pasted into another mmo. 

I'm not too jazzed about it bit I'm willing to wait and see what they release. The labels are meaningless the end product is what matters.