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  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/15/10 3:06:35 PM#1

Ok, this happened today, and is a perfect example of one of the many things that irritates me about today's newer MMO players and the mindset of sucjh players....as well as the way these MMO's themselves are designed...to a degree.

So I am playing Allods because really, there isn't a P2P MMO that is worth my $15 a month. And no, I haven't paid a penny to Allods. I enjoy the PvE, NOT the PvP, and can resist paying to advance like a lazya$$ contrary to popular opinion. Also, if even the PvE gets to the point where it is trying to force me to pay to continue, I simply will stop playing.

Anyways, I am enjoying taking my time going through some mobs to get the required items to complete a quest. Sure, I have to "med" to a point going solo, but regardless, I am enjoying the challenge and adventure of it. Now you can also say that this is wasting time, but after what I tell you, you will see my soloing was more productive and actually less time consuming considering.

I suddenly get an invite to a group. I figure, ok, maybe it'll go faster this way....WRONG! I am a healing class, so i start to heal as they pull...we kill a mob, one of the other 3 in the group instantly loots the mob (Only get 1 item per kill). Next mob, same guy gets it, and again, and again. So I say "I do hope everyone here is going to take turns and not simply ninja loot". The guy that was looting says, "I did most of this in a group yesterday and only need a few more. I can drop out of the group after that so it can go faster for the rest of you." The others in the group start doing the same race to loot and I am stuck being the healing puppet getting nothing done. I didn't get any of the items required that, in that same wasted amount of time, I had already obtained 6 of the 12 items. So....I leave the group, and I am the jerk. /shrug

This isn't even remotely near the first time this has happened. Sadly, it happens every other time I try to group. BTW, everyone in the group stated their total MMO playtimes when I mentioned how sad it was that the MMO's and their communities have devolved to such tactics. None were above 5 years...which IMO means that most started playing around the time Blizzard mass popularized MMO's. Not saying that is where they came from beyond a doubt, but that they were more than likely turned on to MMO's through it's advertising. But at the same time, most players I encounter like that come from WoW. But then again, who hasn't played it at this point. =P

 What has happened? Why have MMO's become rat races to get to cap? To rush through every aspect of them and not consider other people? I remember a time when a group stuck together until everyone got all the required items out of courtesy and appreciation of the help. It's almost non-existent anymore. It no longer seems about the journey, but rather the destination. Which from what I thought, is the opposite of what MMO's started as, and what I thought console games are designed for. Sigh....

  SwampRob

Novice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1009

4/15/10 3:24:01 PM#2

While I think the devs aren't totally blameless for poorly designing the quest that way, there's no doubt you ran into jerks.    Sadly, you're right, it's far too common these days that people only join groups to get what they want out of it, then the hell with everyone else.   

Take a game like Wow.   You join a five man, work your way to the end boss, and one person gets a cool piece of loot.    In a typical pug, it's reasonably safe to assume that all five of those players were there just to get what they wanted, whether it was the loot or just getting the quest done.    And here, I firmly blame the devs.   Grouping should be done out of choice and preference, and never because it's required.    Sure you can have incentives to offset the hassle of group forming, but I've always felt making it mandatory is just bad design.

 

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  Pedrob

Novice Member

Joined: 8/01/09
Posts: 170

4/15/10 3:35:15 PM#3

This is one of the things Lotro did well, when players in the same group have the same quest and the item drops, everyone in the group with the quest gets to loot the item, so everyone gets it in the kill, not just one. Same thing with quest items you need to interact with or "collect" you find the flashy item, pick it up and it stops flashing for you, but for others it' still flashing, so no need to wait 45mins racing against 10 others spaming the click on it.

  Comnitus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/09
Posts: 2509

Revenge is a dish best served with mayonnaise and those little cheesy things on sticks.

4/15/10 3:38:59 PM#4
Originally posted by Pedrob


This is one of the things Lotro did well, when players in the same group have the same quest and the item drops, everyone in the group with the quest gets to loot the item, so everyone gets it in the kill, not just one. Same thing with quest items you need to interact with or "collect" you find the flashy item, pick it up and it stops flashing for you, but for others it' still flashing, so no need to wait 45mins racing against 10 others spaming the click on it.

Exactly. OP, this sounds like poor game mechanics. Thus, more the game's fault than the players. If you want to provide examples of how the community has gotten "worse" after WoW, you have plenty of other legitimate ammo to use.

  User Deleted
4/15/10 3:39:32 PM#5

Making players compete against each other does not tend to foster co-operation in my experience.

 

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/15/10 3:41:34 PM#6

Swamprob,

Yes, I agree with you that it is mostly the dev's fault for poor quest design. It is laziness to create a timesink that they didn't  try to mask even a little to make it not as obvious it is one. Especially only giving one item per kill. But then again, that is probably also done to make you spend money on the item shop to get gear that allows you to solo them with ease. IF you are an ADD person that can't hack a bit slower progression that is.

 

  Neanderthal

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 1613

4/15/10 3:42:19 PM#7
Originally posted by Goatgod76

 What has happened? Why have MMO's become rat races to get to cap? To rush through every aspect of them and not consider other people? I remember a time when a group stuck together until everyone got all the required items out of courtesy and appreciation of the help. It's almost non-existent anymore. It no longer seems about the journey, but rather the destination. Which from what I thought, is the opposite of what MMO's started as, and what I thought console games are designed for. Sigh....

 The rat race has always been there but you're right that it has become dominant in people's minds now.  I honestly believe that it's partly because the leveling is so much faster now.  The way we can breeze through levels now only encourages that mind set.  In older games in which the leveling was much, much slower it created a different sort of atmosphere.

The way people used to be more polite and considerate and helpfull...well, you already probably know why that is.  And no, no matter what anyone says it's not because the younger generation are mutants.  Let me put it this way; if people endure hardships, trials, and tribulations together they are almost certainly going to develop a more respectfull and helpfull attitude towards each other than they would if everything comes easy to them.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/15/10 3:46:15 PM#8
Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by Goatgod76

 What has happened? Why have MMO's become rat races to get to cap? To rush through every aspect of them and not consider other people? I remember a time when a group stuck together until everyone got all the required items out of courtesy and appreciation of the help. It's almost non-existent anymore. It no longer seems about the journey, but rather the destination. Which from what I thought, is the opposite of what MMO's started as, and what I thought console games are designed for. Sigh....

 The rat race has always been there but you're right that it has become dominant in people's minds now.  I honestly believe that it's partly because the leveling is so much faster now.  The way we can breeze through levels now only encourages that mind set.  In older games in which the leveling was much, much slower it created a different sort of atmosphere.

The way people used to be more polite and considerate and helpfull...well, you already probably know why that is.  And no, no matter what anyone says it's not because the younger generation are mutants.  Let me put it this way; if people endure hardships, trials, and tribulations together they are almost certainly going to develop a more respectfull and helpfull attitude towards each other than they would if everything comes easy to them.

Yeah. I remember in EQ I didn't really pay a whole lot of attention to my experience bar, because it took so long to get a level. Plus, with the ability to go in reverse through multiple deaths. However, it made it that much more exciting when you did "ding" because you knew with it came new spells/abilities, etc.

It allowed you to focus more on the quests, which at times didn't give you GPS directions to your objective (Although most were collect/kill" style quests even then too), instead of eyeing your xp bar every kill.

 

And on your last bit, I couldn't agree more.

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3147

Google is your friend.

4/15/10 4:01:10 PM#9

It is a sad situation, but for the most part if you want to get the kind of consideration for others that you speak of you will only find it in a guild. Even that isn't always a given, though. I fondly do remember the days of joining a pug and the people in the group staying together until everyone in the group got what they needed. Society today have bred a different person and thus a different gamer. It's about "me" and that's it. There are a few exceptions, sure, but for the most part players think of themselves and little else.

I continue to practice my old habits of staying until everyone gets what they need unless RL (read: the wife) demands I log off for some reason or another. I've been in situations recently where I was the last guy in a full group to stick it out with a guy who needed just a few more items. After we got them and turned them in we saw 2 of the other players that were with us spamming for a group for the next part. We, of course, ignored them. We finished it and they were still spamming. They wouldn't even join each other and duo.

It's things like this that sometime make me wonder if it is actually even a human being on the other end of those characters.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  Amathe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 1666

4/15/10 4:43:43 PM#10

I see this as an outgrowth of players being able to complete most content themselves or in relatively small squads, and for encounters that can always be planned and scheduled.

 

What that does is cause people not to need most of the players on their server. They won't suddenly have to turn to strangers for help when a rare spawm emerges. They won't need many extra people for a raid that takes over a hundred people.

 

When people don't need a good reputation on their server to succeed, they become less likely to care what others think. That, unfortunately, leads to people treating other people selfishly.

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  Pedrob

Novice Member

Joined: 8/01/09
Posts: 170

4/15/10 4:44:37 PM#11
Originally posted by Khalathwyr


It is a sad situation, but for the most part if you want to get the kind of consideration for others that you speak of you will only find it in a guild. Even that isn't always a given, though. I fondly do remember the days of joining a pug and the people in the group staying together until everyone in the group got what they needed. Society today have bred a different person and thus a different gamer. It's about "me" and that's it. There are a few exceptions, sure, but for the most part players think of themselves and little else.

I continue to practice my old habits of staying until everyone gets what they need unless RL (read: the wife) demands I log off for some reason or another. I've been in situations recently where I was the last guy in a full group to stick it out with a guy who needed just a few more items. After we got them and turned them in we saw 2 of the other players that were with us spamming for a group for the next part. We, of course, ignored them. We finished it and they were still spamming. They wouldn't even join each other and duo.

It's things like this that sometime make me wonder if it is actually even a human being on the other end of those characters.

I can say I also wait for everyone to get what they need before we find ask if everyone else needs something else in the area while we're there or while we're grouped up.

It's sad how players change over time and how games change to satisfy those players, even if it means making games worse and less Massive Multiplayer friendly.

  Acvivm

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/25/10
Posts: 311

4/15/10 5:09:07 PM#12
Originally posted by Goatgod76


Ok, this happened today, and is a perfect example of one of the many things that irritates me about today's newer MMO players and the mindset of sucjh players....as well as the way these MMO's themselves are designed...to a degree.

So I am playing Allods because really, there isn't a P2P MMO that is worth my $15 a month. And no, I haven't paid a penny to Allods. I enjoy the PvE, NOT the PvP, and can resist paying to advance like a lazya$$ contrary to popular opinion. Also, if even the PvE gets to the point where it is trying to force me to pay to continue, I simply will stop playing.

Anyways, I am enjoying taking my time going through some mobs to get the required items to complete a quest. Sure, I have to "med" to a point going solo, but regardless, I am enjoying the challenge and adventure of it. Now you can also say that this is wasting time, but after what I tell you, you will see my soloing was more productive and actually less time consuming considering.

I suddenly get an invite to a group. I figure, ok, maybe it'll go faster this way....WRONG! I am a healing class, so i start to heal as they pull...we kill a mob, one of the other 3 in the group instantly loots the mob (Only get 1 item per kill). Next mob, same guy gets it, and again, and again. So I say "I do hope everyone here is going to take turns and not simply ninja loot". The guy that was looting says, "I did most of this in a group yesterday and only need a few more. I can drop out of the group after that so it can go faster for the rest of you." The others in the group start doing the same race to loot and I am stuck being the healing puppet getting nothing done. I didn't get any of the items required that, in that same wasted amount of time, I had already obtained 6 of the 12 items. So....I leave the group, and I am the jerk. /shrug

This isn't even remotely near the first time this has happened. Sadly, it happens every other time I try to group. BTW, everyone in the group stated their total MMO playtimes when I mentioned how sad it was that the MMO's and their communities have devolved to such tactics. None were above 5 years...which IMO means that most started playing around the time Blizzard mass popularized MMO's. Not saying that is where they came from beyond a doubt, but that they were more than likely turned on to MMO's through it's advertising. But at the same time, most players I encounter like that come from WoW. But then again, who hasn't played it at this point. =P

 What has happened? Why have MMO's become rat races to get to cap? To rush through every aspect of them and not consider other people? I remember a time when a group stuck together until everyone got all the required items out of courtesy and appreciation of the help. It's almost non-existent anymore. It no longer seems about the journey, but rather the destination. Which from what I thought, is the opposite of what MMO's started as, and what I thought console games are designed for. Sigh....

Join a clan/guild/legion/corp or whatever your game calls it, make friends and group with them..f**k everyone else unless they are worth the time..stop blaming other people for being asshats...people will be people, you have choices: make friends or ignore and continue pugging. MMOs are full of terrible people, always have been, always will be....and I dont expect it to change just because I dont like. Sorry if that comes out as rude..but you cant let what others are doing stop you from having fun.

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  Zippy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 1428

4/15/10 5:12:42 PM#13
I would agree there is a huge difference between older and newer players in many things including maturity, patience, attention span, ability to speak something other than juvenile gibberish, etiquette, empathy for others, skill and experience.  These players who have never played a game where reputation mattered and grouping was essential missed out on many valuable lessons.
 
What is even worse is trying to have a conversation with these players.  For the most part they simply do not have the language skills to express themselves in any form that is not embarrassing to themselves and to those forced to listen to them.  Just yesterday I happened to watch a player steal a rare spawn quest mob that another player spawned.  The bad player then tried to defend himself in a very inarticulate way.  It was embarrassing someone could be so dumb.  
 

I always play by the standard rules of take turns on drops, make sure everyone gets their quest items before moving on and treat others with respect.  These new players are simply awful.  I could go on about all the rude things I see them do in the new games.  It's just sad.  No patience, no thought for others, well no thought at all is more like it,  and its always all about them.  Very sad.  I miss the days where people would not leave a group without giving at least an hour notice or finding their own replacement.  When people would never try to steal your camp or mob.  Where people would send you an actual tell with a hello and introduction before sending you a group invite.  Just makes today’s kiddie ADHD dominated communities even sadder.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/15/10 5:48:32 PM#14
Originally posted by Acvivm

Originally posted by Goatgod76

This isn't even remotely near the first time this has happened. Sadly, it happens every other time I try to group. BTW, everyone in the group stated their total MMO playtimes when I mentioned how sad it was that the MMO's and their communities have devolved to such tactics. None were above 5 years...which IMO means that most started playing around the time Blizzard mass popularized MMO's. Not saying that is where they came from beyond a doubt, but that they were more than likely turned on to MMO's through it's advertising. But at the same time, most players I encounter like that come from WoW. But then again, who hasn't played it at this point. =P

 What has happened? Why have MMO's become rat races to get to cap? To rush through every aspect of them and not consider other people? I remember a time when a group stuck together until everyone got all the required items out of courtesy and appreciation of the help. It's almost non-existent anymore. It no longer seems about the journey, but rather the destination. Which from what I thought, is the opposite of what MMO's started as, and what I thought console games are designed for. Sigh....

Join a clan/guild/legion/corp or whatever your game calls it, make friends and group with them..f**k everyone else unless they are worth the time..stop blaming other people for being asshats...people will be people, you have choices: make friends or ignore and continue pugging. MMOs are full of terrible people, always have been, always will be....and I dont expect it to change just because I dont like. Sorry if that comes out as rude..but you cant let what others are doing stop you from having fun.

I've only been playing this particular game for maybe two weeks so far. So, I haven't been in this MMO long enough, nor on the server long enough to evaluate the Guilds on it to join one. This does bring up another point however.

I get Guild invites randomly...almost everytime I log on.  And not in this particular MMO, but others I have played, I have researched Guilds for at least 2 weeks...grouped with there members, read their forums and monitored there members ramblings in general chats, etc. Once I had determined they could be the right guild for me, I would join. Usually, there is a two week  trial period with most Guilds, at a minimum. Either during that time, I come to find that what they feed me in chat, or in groups, or on their forums is usually fluff to attract members and nothing more, or once your in they pretty much ignore you unless you are geared up when you join. Very few Guilds hold to their convictions anymore. Nor are they willing to take you under their wing as a newer player/member and assist you with making your character better, so you can make the Guild better as a whole. Guilds now...for the most part are molded around being elite and well known more than being a close knit group of friends to play with. Another sad realization. I'm not saying  great guilds don't exist, because there are some. It's just that they are a rare breed now.

As far as not letting others ruin my fun, point taken. And the fact that their have always been and always will be idiots is also true.  I have thick skin, but even I can only ignore so much of it with the massive amounts of idiots that there are now compared to say my EQ days. The numbers have increased ten fold, obviously increasing as the MMO genre has become more mainstream (Sadly). The servers are teeming with them, as are the chat channels. To me, there is only so much you can ignore before you have secluded yourself so much it stops being fun anyways, or becomes a single-player RPG due to that seclusion to escape the douchebaggery. Maybe I am losing the taste for MMO's. Or if not that, but the direction they have taken in recent years...can't say for sure. But I can say that it is sad how badly the communities have de-evolved. That alone plays a big part in the enjoyment of a given game.

Take WoW for instance. I played from release up through the Burning Crusades (About 2 months after BC's release). In that time, and as it's popularity exploded, I saw the community there corrode at an alarming rate to the point that I left the game. NOT because the game was horrible (Although a bit too hand-held for my taste. Also, as it released patches this happened), but because of the community that went above and beyond to annoy, flame, grief for it's own jollies, steal, ninja loot, spam, juvenille remarks, selfish demeanors, etc.

 

Another huge killer is gold farmers/spammers. This kills immersion, etc for me....and I am sure many other players. Also, these micro-transactions and item shops are killing the MMO genre IMO. But sadly, if there weren't people using them and buying items, they wouldn't exist right? Sigh...sad to watch a genre you saw the birth of die before your very eyes. At least in the way you remember it. And many will say "Stop whining. Adapt or leave."....and that is fine. But the day WILL come when they will be in the position some of us are now, and then they will understand. But sadly, just as it seems with us, it will be too late. Bah! Rambling now lol.

  User Deleted
4/15/10 6:25:12 PM#15
Originally posted by Zippy
 
What is even worse is trying to have a conversation with these players.  For the most part they simply do not have the language skills to express themselves in any form that is not embarrassing to themselves and to those forced to listen to them.  Just yesterday I happened to watch a player steal a rare spawn quest mob that another player spawned.  The bad player then tried to defend himself in a very inarticulate way.  It was embarrassing someone could be so dumb.  
 

That's not just a problem with the young.  Non-gaming example, I had to help my uncle operate his DVD/VCR player.  He messed it up.  Couldn't figure out what was wrong.  It was simply a matter of putting the TV to the right channel, but he really doesn't have an understanding of it.

I shudder to think how he'd be in World of Warcraft.   I really do. 

I'll leave his prejudices and judmentalism aside, those are issues themselves.  

And yes, I can find a lot of people who are my peers who don't impress me either.

 

  uquipu

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/14/09
Posts: 1538

4/16/10 4:01:31 AM#16

OP, communication goes a long way.

Did you talk to the group about your needing the quest items?

Are you sure they knew what the problem was and they left you in a lurch anyways?

I play Allods myself and community seems pretty good most of the time.  I did have one idiot who was picking up the mobs that I killed and needed to pick up.  I called him out on it and come to find out he didn't have a clue to what was going on and he apologized.

Allods does have a lot of group game mechanics problems.  Looting could be done better.

Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  Banquetto

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1020

4/16/10 4:18:19 AM#17
Originally posted by uquipu


OP, communication goes a long way.

Did you talk to the group about your needing the quest items? Are you sure they knew what the problem was and they left you in a lurch anyways?

Another thing to bear in mind.. I'm not wanting to trade in stereotypes here, but in my experience, F2P games have a much higher percentage of players for whom English is not their first language, and many players that really don't speak English at a functional level. Don't assume that just because you said something that it has been acknowledged and understood, unless you actually had a conversation with the other players.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/16/10 6:24:08 AM#18
Originally posted by uquipu


OP, communication goes a long way.

Did you talk to the group about your needing the quest items?

Are you sure they knew what the problem was and they left you in a lurch anyways?

I play Allods myself and community seems pretty good most of the time.  I did have one idiot who was picking up the mobs that I killed and needed to pick up.  I called him out on it and come to find out he didn't have a clue to what was going on and he apologized.

Allods does have a lot of group game mechanics problems.  Looting could be done better.

Yes I did. As you can see in my original post, I told them that I had hoped everyone was taking turns and not simply ninja looting. What I didn't include in the OP, mainly so it wasn't anymore of a scroll than it already is, is more to the conversation (Mainly a one sided one) where I said that I needed the items as well. At one point, a member DID ask how many each person in the group needed, but that was as far as it went. They still went out of their way to loot each downed kill as fast as possible so others had no chance, hence, why I left the group.

  Goatgod76

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 1226

 
OP  4/16/10 6:26:44 AM#19
Originally posted by Banquetto

Originally posted by uquipu


OP, communication goes a long way.

Did you talk to the group about your needing the quest items? Are you sure they knew what the problem was and they left you in a lurch anyways?

Another thing to bear in mind.. I'm not wanting to trade in stereotypes here, but in my experience, F2P games have a much higher percentage of players for whom English is not their first language, and many players that really don't speak English at a functional level. Don't assume that just because you said something that it has been acknowledged and understood, unless you actually had a conversation with the other players.

I wonder how many times it might be the case that actual english speaking players use the knowledge of what you said to their advantage of pretending not to understand english to get away with things too. =) I am sure this wasn't the case in my particular situation, but I am sure it has happened on occasion.

  Zippy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 1428

4/16/10 8:36:57 AM#20
Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Banquetto

Originally posted by uquipu


OP, communication goes a long way.

Did you talk to the group about your needing the quest items? Are you sure they knew what the problem was and they left you in a lurch anyways?

Another thing to bear in mind.. I'm not wanting to trade in stereotypes here, but in my experience, F2P games have a much higher percentage of players for whom English is not their first language, and many players that really don't speak English at a functional level. Don't assume that just because you said something that it has been acknowledged and understood, unless you actually had a conversation with the other players.

I wonder how many times it might be the case that actual english speaking players use the knowledge of what you said to their advantage of pretending not to understand english to get away with things too. =) I am sure this wasn't the case in my particular situation, but I am sure it has happened on occasion.

F2P seem to have a much lower standard of player.  Players that have simply not played mainstream MMOs. players that have not learned MMO community rules, players that just play F2P games with different rules of etiquette, players with much less skill and experience, more PvP orientated players, and players that are much younger than players in mainstream MMOs and consequently have bigger probelms with patience and empathy or understanding the needs of others.

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