Originally posted by Felconian

So based on the current situhation with subscribers leaving in droves....

Some LifeTime members are now trying to get refunds and threatening legal action against Cryptic.

I think its realy starting to hit home there and alot of guys are relizing they are going to take a loss.... I feel for alot of them but they not getting there Money back .... !

Sad day for many!

PS: This in no way refurs to the Entire Lifes Playerbase.... there have just been 2 more post's by life time members ...which has just been edit by Criptic! 

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=150108

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=149954

I'm a lifer and I'm taking a break from STO. I don't need to point out the reasons, that should be obvious, but I don't plan on trying to get my money back or even looking into a lawsuit. The game needs more work plain and simple. I'll play it again but not until theres something new or different to do in game.

I don't have any hard feelings about my sub either and if the game becomes a bust so be it. I decided to take a chance and purchase the lifetime sub all on my own, all the info about the game was there and they had the open beta so it's not like anyone didn't know what they were getting into, unless you were stupid enough to buy it sight unseen.

Life is a gamble some decissions pay off and some don't plain and simple. So far, this one hasn't really paid off and as a Lifer I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by SwampRob

This thread kind of bums me out.   Not because I disagree with it, I've not played STO at all.   But I don't like to see MMOs fail because it makes it harder to attract investors.   Also, I am a longtime ST fan and it's sad what they've done when they had so much potential.   I had thoughts of someday subbing up, once a lot of the problems were cleared up.   But now it looks like that will never happen.  

 I see it exactly opposite.  By killing off the crap games, developers get an idea for what works and what doesn't.  To redeem this genre you will have to kill it first.   And that means failure on a massive scale that makes developers rethink where they have been taking the genre for the last few years.

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by SwampRob

This thread kind of bums me out.   Not because I disagree with it, I've not played STO at all.   But I don't like to see MMOs fail because it makes it harder to attract investors.   Also, I am a longtime ST fan and it's sad what they've done when they had so much potential.   I had thoughts of someday subbing up, once a lot of the problems were cleared up.   But now it looks like that will never happen.  

 I see it exactly opposite.  By killing off the crap games, developers get an idea for what works and what doesn't.  To redeem this genre you will have to kill it first.   And that means failure on a massive scale that makes developers rethink where they have been taking the genre for the last few years.

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

 Pretty much this

Who knows the lifers might have got it right and in two years time we'll all be begging for lifetime subs to the most improved mmo ever...

...and then again no.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Who knows the lifers might have got it right and in two years time we'll all be begging for lifetime subs to the most improved mmo ever...

 

...and then again no.

Who knows. Maybe I'll win the lottery and be able to retire to a tropical island full of naked women.;

 

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

 

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

To think I almost bought into 2 Life Time subs... WHEW, that was close!

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

 

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

 Im not sure how you cant conisder this a failure, its fricking Star Trek and they still blew it.  This game should be doing awesome and I guarantee you their projected numbers(every business does projections for each year) didnt show the game tanking this quickly which in turn means the game is not doing as well as they will have projected.  You can take that to the bank. 

On a side note by continually launching games like this more and more people are becoming aware of their business practices and wont purchase future games with them so yes this will continue to hit them in the pocketbook for all future projects. 

Because this game was such an epic disappointment I have this uncharacteristic desire to see cryptic go down for this. Its not really fair because they are just a bunch of artists and programmers who tried to make a game within a really difficult deadline  but still, when I hear interviews with craig Zinc just lying through his teeth, avoiding questions and spouting rhetoric whenever he is faced with some kind of question about why the game is so frakkin boring, it really doesnt make me want to like the company.  I just hope someone makes a space game that fits somewhere between STO and EVE.

Originally posted by Shatter30

 

 Im not sure how you cant conisder this a failure, its fricking Star Trek and they still blew it.  This game should be doing awesome and I guarantee you their projected numbers(every business does projections for each year) didnt show the game tanking this quickly which in turn means the game is not doing as well as they will have projected.  You can take that to the bank. 

On a side note by continually launching games like this more and more people are becoming aware of their business practices and wont purchase future games with them so yes this will continue to hit them in the pocketbook for all future projects. 

If they put out another rush-job MMO-lite, will you then admit that they are doing it on purpose? They know what their accounting books look like. We do not.

We have no idea what their license deal for the Trek IP was like. Maybe it was a small rate the first year, and going up in following years. Maybe their plan all along was to drop this game after a year and a half or so.

They did a rush job on a huge, deep IP  - either they are complete idiots, or they are not planning for long-term success. Virtually everything they have done with this game screams 'Take the money and run.'

Originally posted by Shatter30

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

 

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

 Im not sure how you cant conisder this a failure, its fricking Star Trek and they still blew it.  This game should be doing awesome and I guarantee you their projected numbers(every business does projections for each year) didnt show the game tanking this quickly which in turn means the game is not doing as well as they will have projected.  You can take that to the bank. 

On a side note by continually launching games like this more and more people are becoming aware of their business practices and wont purchase future games with them so yes this will continue to hit them in the pocketbook for all future projects. 

It has to do with operation and development costs. Don't forget that CO and STO uses the same platform. There are 3 approaches:

1. Investing a huge amount of money under the expectation of getting huge subscriber numbers, this is pretty much a risk that sometimes works good but others is a disaster. 

2. Investing a lot of money but with some restrain, expecting moderate numbers. This is the case of AoC, WAR and others

3. Investing on cheaper operation and development rate costs and work with whatever they can get. While this can look bad. However, it can be more robust to the market changes since it does not require as many subscribers as the previous 2 approaches.

When SWTOR releases, if it goes well then more studios will take the chances, otherwise it will be a warning for future investors.

I really disagree with this idea of promoting games to fail. Let them fail on their own, I think it is the fair thing to do. 

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Who knows the lifers might have got it right and in two years time we'll all be begging for lifetime subs to the most improved mmo ever...

 

...and then again no.

Who knows. Maybe I'll win the lottery and be able to retire to a tropical island full of naked women.;

 

Damn you stole my retirement plan idea.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

 

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

 

........

But we have been stung now and the majority of mmo players know that their next game will be a total pos if the same engine is used.

Lets see the box sales on their next effort.

Originally posted by sadeyx

As I recal LOTRO only offerd a Life time subscription for a very limited amount of time after release, not as an on-going feature.

 

Now, at the time I would definatly not wanted that, lotro at the begging was utter fail for me, hmm.. but now, yea sometimes I do want to just jump on and do some monster play. 

 

But then, they do still charge for their expansions, so I probably wouldnt be completly satisfied.

Nope, you can still get a life time scubscription to LotRO.  Its always been an option.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Who knows the lifers might have got it right and in two years time we'll all be begging for lifetime subs to the most improved mmo ever...

 

...and then again no.

Hah!

Yeah, Cryptic certainly hasn't demonstrated any ability to give depth or life to a game.  They can talk all they want about improvements, but there's no reason to think they even have the capability of making anything that isn't superficial crap.  I'm pretty certain they don't have the desire to.

I'm with MMO Doubter that their business model is probably successful so far.  They make a super cheap game and then get tons of money on the box sales, then they spend very little developing those games further (and suck money out of anyone who sticks around paying the monthly fee).  Heck, their server structure is built to hand a bunch of people leaving the game without the need for them to obviously shut down servers.  Obviously they can move the hardware to other projects as less is needed, but they don't have to do something like what WoW or other games would need to do and announce a shut-down and merge things together.

I don't think such a model can last long with the same business name, as eventually people will learn what Cryptic is about.  Unfortunately, I think they could just change their name every several years and keep fleecing people for money.  Most gamers aren't going to investigate who the devs are behind a particular product beyond the company.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

 

 I have to agree with Terra.  If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it.  Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general. 

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

You're right in that we don't know the financial numbers, but how many people are going to buy another MMO from Cryptic?  I know I'm not.  People still hate SOE 4.5 years later for what they did to SWG, and if anything Trek fans are even less forgiving.

I'm not a fan of the Champions IP, so I don't know what they were expecting sub number wise, but I'm thinking they are already below their target number.  We know their target for STO was 100k, which IMO is pathetic for such a big IP, and two months after launch they are at best at that target and probably already below it with no where to go but down.  Cryptic will be hard pressed to ever shake the rep of taking a dump on the Trek franchise.

Originally posted by championsFan

Originally posted by SwampRob

This thread kind of bums me out.   Not because I disagree with it, I've not played STO at all.   But I don't like to see MMOs fail because it makes it harder to attract investors.   Also, I am a longtime ST fan and it's sad what they've done when they had so much potential.   I had thoughts of someday subbing up, once a lot of the problems were cleared up.   But now it looks like that will never happen.  

 

Unfortunately I am an ST fan and Cryptic fan but I found myself wondering if anyone on earth could force themselves to play STO for an MMO amount of time, it's that bad.  

Kettle calling the pot black imho. Its not so much a case of STO being so much worse than CO just nobody gives a shit about CO at this stage.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Shatter30

 

 Im not sure how you cant conisder this a failure, its fricking Star Trek and they still blew it.  This game should be doing awesome and I guarantee you their projected numbers(every business does projections for each year) didnt show the game tanking this quickly which in turn means the game is not doing as well as they will have projected.  You can take that to the bank. 

On a side note by continually launching games like this more and more people are becoming aware of their business practices and wont purchase future games with them so yes this will continue to hit them in the pocketbook for all future projects. 

If they put out another rush-job MMO-lite, will you then admit that they are doing it on purpose? They know what their accounting books look like. We do not.

We have no idea what their license deal for the Trek IP was like. Maybe it was a small rate the first year, and going up in following years. Maybe their plan all along was to drop this game after a year and a half or so.

They did a rush job on a huge, deep IP  - either they are complete idiots, or they are not planning for long-term success. Virtually everything they have done with this game screams 'Take the money and run.'

 If they spit out another one then yeah they are obviously doing it on purpose and I would assume it also means its working for them.  If that is the business model they are choosing to go with that is their choice but I won't ever play one of their games.  I think its sad if a company is developing as you said by taking the money and run approach but I would like to think as well that people will get smart and stop giving that company $$ and learn from it.  I agree 100% that everything they did in STO was money grub and run, luckily for me I was smart enough to not give them any of my money ;)

I pre ordered a standard copy for 24 pound sterling, instead I got the gold edition and when I put the key in it gave me 3 months instead of just 30 days included and I still stopped playing after the first two weeks after launch, what a waste of an IP to a naive leaders over at Cryptic thinking they could pull tihs off.

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

You're right in that we don't know the financial numbers, but how many people are going to buy another MMO from Cryptic?  I know I'm not.  People still hate SOE 4.5 years later for what they did to SWG, and if anything Trek fans are even less forgiving.

I'm not a fan of the Champions IP, so I don't know what they were expecting sub number wise, but I'm thinking they are already below their target number.  We know their target for STO was 100k, which IMO is pathetic for such a big IP, and two months after launch they are at best at that target and probably already below it with no where to go but down.  Cryptic will be hard pressed to ever shake the rep of taking a dump on the Trek franchise.

We're rather attentive gamers though.  Beyond some of the REALLY big names in gaming like Bioware, Blizzard, etc, how many people really pay that much attention to what company made a particular game?  I think it is rather similar to movie directors or the like.  Some people pay close attention to these things, but a lot of people (quite possibly the vast majority) don't -- note how movie ads might go "from the director of <blank>" rather than name the actual director, and I'd think they do this because not enough people would recognize the name.

I am sure some people will not buy any game Cryptic makes after this or at least be highly cautious (wait 6+ months after release) before doing so.  Will those be the majority?  I don't know.

Of course, like I said earlier, I think even fewer would notice if Cryptic disappeared and a new company showed up run by the same people with a new name.