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News & Features Discussion  » General: Great Expectations - SW:TOR

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  calranthe

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 361

3/30/10 12:20:50 PM#221
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf


I've said before and I'll say it again. ToR will never hit 2 millions subs, guaranteed.

 

Yes it is a Star Wars game, yes it has computer game fanatics who are fans of Bioware (but guess what most non involved gamers don't know who game companies are at all, don't forget that being on these types of forums makes you the minority of customers). But it also has things going against it.

 

It is being released on PC only correct? Bioware gets a ton of sales from console, so this is immediately a huge hit in numbers. Second it's an MMO. There are still a lot of people out there who won't touch a game if it's an MMO. It's different enough from the MMO genre to lose many MMO fans with it's extremely linear, extremely solo based design.

 

It is completely unrealistic to ever expect an MMO released in the west to get 2 million subscribers, let alone 2 million in sales.

 

This game might sell a million copies out the door (preorder and first month), this game might have 500k subscribers by the end of month 2. But to expect anything above that is insane.

 

EA has been killing itself lately, they don't know how to manage their business. So to spend this much on an MMO and to expect 2 million or more subscribers shows how out of touch they are with the markets. It is also why Activision/Blizzard (Vivendi) are taking over the monster that was once EA. They are now the company to beat and EA is the example of what not to do.

 

I would put money on the fact this game will not hit 2 million subs or even come close.

Okay first up i'll take you up on this how much money do you want to put on this so well informed wager ?

 

I believe this game will have an appeal beyond any other mmo out there

Mass effect, Mass effect 2, Dragon age origins, Dragon age awakening, Jade empire, the amount of copies sold on the pc alone haveto be above 10m and you know what, most people who play bioware games replay them.

We are told that there is for each profession in TOR a completey seperate storyline, with emotion and signature bioware moral ambiguaty (sp) Both me, wife, and our 4 closest friends are going to buy/subscribe and play this game.

I still play through Jade Empire and I can't say the amount of times i've completed mass effect and mass effect 2.

Add to that the idea of not only soloing but joining friends and its a no brainer.

 

Yes maybe purity mmo players won't like it, maybe power gamers won't like it but this is a new idea a new chance and we are really looking forward to it.

msg me with your wager on this and i'll take it up.

  Herodes

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 1488

Consumer

3/30/10 1:19:03 PM#222

at Calranthe:
You need an exact timeframe for this bet, ie "hit 2mio subs 90 days after release" and you need the info at this time, how many subscriptions this game actually has. If this is possible, I would bet 50 euro or something which wouldn´t hurt both of us much.
---
I know nothing about this game, so I am curious, what kind of fun formula this game is going to have. Longevity? Replayability?
I myself planned to buy GW2 blindly, because Arenanets first game had an interesting setting.
All I played from Bioware was Dragon Age (DLC) and Planescape:Torment (was it Bioware?)

I just hope, that Mythic goes back to the roots and implements 3 factions of PvP into a solid PvE game.

  Creoleman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/05
Posts: 72

3/30/10 2:21:51 PM#223

Holy Mother of All That Is Good and Wholesome, Scott.  That is something verging on the edge of insanity there but I find that I agree with it one hundred and fifty percent.  The fact that everyone and their imaginary girlfriend is betting that SWTOR is going to beat the pants off anything else out there and no one has put hands onto the game yet, just taking EA/Bioware's word for it and their risking a lot on just word of mouth hype

I can easily see EA playing with fire here, investing more than most Uwe Bol features in producing a video game...let me repeat that...A VIDEO GAME!!!!  Even if they get lucky and get their minimum 1 MIL subs, retention is going to be the tricky fulcrum there, because if enough of the die hards get into the game, you're going to lose the casual subscriber who is not out to out duel everyone, or be the baddest Jedi/Sith around, but the Luke Skywalker/Starkiller/Darth Whoevers out there are going to make sure to keep those casuals playing the solo game and not even interacting with the rest of the SW community online.

I'm happy that EA feels that SWTOR is worth $150 MIL but the danger there is setting themselves up to fail and then blaming the MMO community for having too high an expectation which is a megalithic company's response when the community complains that the game has failed to meet their expectations and I can tell you from previous experience with other MMO's I've had the honor to Beta test in the past, the minute they remove one cool feature or fail to bring that one cool feature to the game universe, they naysayers will be out in Force (hehe) and calling the devs liars and thieves for ruining the IP and messing up the game, which always tends to happen no matter how much the devs try and reassure the community of its earnest intentions with the IP.

EA, Blizzard and Sony might be the last ones standing after they outspend the smaller independent companies under the table but the question is how long can the MMO industry last under a such limited development pool, when your meager $1 MIL investment pool is just chicken scratch to the Big Guns and you have to rush your product to market before they unless their Uber Massive WoW-Trek-Wars game to crush yours like a little girly man.

Lets hope that SWTOR doesn't disappoint because there is more than EA rep at stake here, there's all those developers who worked hard to try and bring it to fruition here that will pay the ultimate price here and shoulder all of the blame if things don't go as their EA Overlords wanted it to go.

  illanadan

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 320

3/30/10 2:31:34 PM#224

Ahh the Hype engine.

Remember the lessons learned from STO, WAR, AoC, Aion, etc.. etc... etc......

One day people will learn.

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  Lizante

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/04
Posts: 183

3/30/10 3:13:28 PM#225

I find it truly sad how for some, their vision, and yes their passion barely extends to the end of their nose.

As daddy used to say, it takes money to make money.

What would have happened to Vanguard: Saga of Heros had Microsoft not walked out on Sigil Games barely half way through development?  (Microsoft had spent $30M but none of the MS Team could had any idea what a good MMO is, much less what they wanted Vanguard it to be).

What could have Tabula Rasa's potential been with proper management, passion, support and marketing?   Unfortunatley, NCSoft thought little of doing any of these things and simply pulled the plug.

With EA/LucasArts/BioWare, all the peices are there -- the right team with the expertise in all facets and all the money they need to produce and deliver the biggest and best MMO ever.  They're also thinking out of that box  -- That $150M will be well over $200M -- The Old Republic offers opportunities beyond "just"  the new MMO -- it's a unique part of the Star Wars IP and work is already underway to develop, market and sell card games, books, miniatures, clothing, ad nauseum and yes, likely a new series of movies. 

I remember Microsoft with more money that many Countries worried about how much V:SoH was costing and how much more should they "sink" into "gaming" while at the same time, they were focusing so much time, money and effort on the XBox  ...

HAH! I can still see the MS suits with frowning brows wringing their hands over  Sigil ... much the same as Mr. Jennings is doing here in his Blog over EA.

Give me the passionate people with the big ideas, the courage and the money to back it up -- that will spell success for SW:TOR.

edited for typos

  Vagrant_Zero

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1257

3/30/10 5:51:46 PM#226


Originally posted by illanadan
Ahh the Hype engine.
Remember the lessons learned from STO, WAR, AoC, Aion, etc.. etc... etc......
One day people will learn.

Because Cryptic, Mythic, Funcom, and NCSoft are in fact the same company as Bioware with the same street creed.

oh wait...

One day people will think.

  User Deleted
3/31/10 6:08:30 AM#227
Originally posted by NightCloak

Originally posted by cyphers

I don't know. look at the whole feverish internet dot com bubble that was such a hype a number of years back. You see the same in a smaller way now with MMO's, now that Blizzard has shown that 11mil subs is actually something that could be reached.

Now everyone else and their dog wants to make a super successful MMO*cough* = make insame amounts of money, whether that's realistic or not. A good burst of that dream bubble is maybe what the MMO market needs, to adjust expectations more to reality again instead of the realm of Investors' Fairytale Neverland where many publishing and investment companies are floating around in now.

Maybe the MMO industry does need to pop the bubble. Maybe they need to prove that MMOs need sufficient funding and development time to be successful.

Look at the industry now. You have MMOs coming out left and right and most of them release in very ugly states. It seems that so many MMOs would do so much better if they would've held off release 6 months to a year.

I hope that this Bioware + EA combo gives Bioware the time and money needed to bring a successful MMO about. I mean, EA has the publishing prowess to get peoples attention and Bioware knows how to make a game. So if time and money are not problems, then I am confident that this game will rock the industry in one way or another.

Sure, this game is estimated ~150MM now. I wonder how much Blizzards next gen MMO is costing. There is a quote out there from dev on it saying "Its nice working with an unlimited budget" in reference to Blizzards next MMO.

 

I hope this is successful and is released in a ready state. I just want another game other than WoW to prove that MMOs need thier development time.

I too hope for the best for EA and Bioware's SW:TOR. The MMO genre needs a quality crafted and successful MMO right now.... for morale reasons if nothing else. It's like there is the pale of Dread floating across the MMO scene these last few years (just how I see it is all).

added: I am not saying I agree with the soloplay with coop design style that many believe SW:TOR will focus on, but a successful and quality crafted MMO would be well appreciated and is needed none the less.

The part in blue... this is the part that is going to hurt, even though it is needed. MMOs are an Art Form at their core, and the loyalty of MMO Players almost proves it by itself in how they love and hate the Industry and how they banter back and forth with themselves and Developers, Publishers, you name it. An Art form of any type or kind gets messed up when Profiteers enter and attempt to turn it into a money machine. History shows this to be true time and time again.

Now we are seeing it in MMOs and the day will come when the Investors that care little for MMOs themselves will find new places to put their money and the hit to the MMO subculture and industry will hurt.... but I have a sincere belief the genre will endure, but be different in fundemental ways and a true "rebirth" of the MMO genre may take many years. By this I mean a return to MMOs being a Niche group where Developers and Players devoted to this style of online entertainment are pretty much the majority of those involved... instead of being the minority as it is right now. By then many of it's most devoted Fans will be playing a "different" kind of "game" so to speak.

Yes it takes money to make money. But for the love of...  Money in and of itself should not be the driving force that motivates a Developer to craft a MMO, rather it is a necessary part of anything Mankind does. Money should be keep as the tool that it is and not the holy grail as some People see it to be. If I would want to make Money my priority the LAST place I would go to make a pile of it is in the MMO Industry or the Gaming Industry as a whole, there are far better places for that sort of activity.

Money, the Real Life Quest for it, has harmed MMOs more than anything else.

  ashfallen

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/06
Posts: 188

3/31/10 1:15:15 PM#228
Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

 


Originally posted by illanadan
Ahh the Hype engine.
Remember the lessons learned from STO, WAR, AoC, Aion, etc.. etc... etc......
One day people will learn.


 

Because Cryptic, Mythic, Funcom, and NCSoft are in fact the same company as Bioware with the same street creed.

oh wait...

One day people will think.

 Funcom, NCsoft, Atari and EA are the companies.  Cryptic and Bioware are registered as studios.   I believe the proper name of Bioware is soon to be Bioware Cryptic.  Though that is still not settled

I you mean the companies have poor reputations, I agree. 

Bioware however has put out quality more often then not.  I personally wouldnt lump Bioware in with the lot.  Aside to say its parent company is EA.

  Niakad

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/12/10
Posts: 37

3/31/10 1:53:28 PM#229

Doom, Diablo, The Sims, Elite, Dungeon Keeper, Half-Life, WoW, Harry Potter, StarCraft, C&C, Civ, Baldur's Gate...

These are great titles. Some of them are recognised as "great" by all, some - by some only. However, I doubt very much, that all of them (or even some of them) were created with the "let's make a super-hit" idea. The creators just had vision and luck, often both.

It is a capital mistake to theorise without data. (c)

Oh... they will rock the planet... oh no! they will fail utterly... oh... they provide so little info I am not convinced, as a consumer... 20+ pages of rubbish. Waste of server space :)

WoW is not that great. Neither are all the rest of the great games/titles. They just delivered (mildly) new experiences to the (new) crowds of gamers. All of them had something (or a lot of) "new" blended with quite regular features of the given genre.

They delivered new experiences to the gamers' brains, and that's what made them great. Peoples' brains like (new) experiences. Different brains like different experiences, and are quick to see "cloned" experiences that simply repeat the pattern without adding anything "interesting" / "new" / "inspiring".

So, the real question is... will TOR be able to inspire your brain, or not?

Your brain is clean of all the preconceptions, hasty judgement, previous bad experiences, etc. (that's what personality is for). It just wants some new experiences to crunch.

So, it is not the question of what you expect to happen, it is a question of what will happen, how it will play out. And that's the thing that no-one knows for sure. Even the creators.

P.S. You know, Bill Gates used to think that "640 k ought to be enough for anyone".

  Aerows

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 16

4/02/10 8:51:45 PM#230

I think EA and Bioware have made a good bet with SW:TOR, and I'm still optimistic about it.  For one, Bioware has had nothing but a string of hits.  For two, despite all of the people saying that this will be a single player game with multiplayer tacked on, you have forgotten some of the ultra-successful multiplayer games Bioware has made - NWN, NWN2 and the BG series.  All three were multiplayer, and NWN had persistent worlds made with their engine. 

I am going to break my rule with SW:TOR and pre-order an MMO.  I vowed never to do it again after the failure that was Hellgate:London.  Bioware is in the same class as Blizzard, and when you buy a game from either, you know you will be getting a good game, even if it isn't your all time favorite it will be addictive. 

In one last respect, I think they have a great chance for high subscription numbers due to the fact that there are a lot of hardcore World of Warcraft players that are sick of WoW.  I canceled back in November simply because it just isn't fun anymore.  I'm not planning on buying Cataclysm simply because I just don't care anymore.  I've tried many different games in the last couple of months trying to find my WoW fix, and while I haven't found it yet, I still have no urge to go back to WoW.  SW:TOR might well be exactly what I'm looking for. 

For everyone saying storyline isn't important or isn't critical, remember that one of the most engaging parts of WoW is that it most definitely has a story.  That's what feels missing in many MMOs - a sense of place, history, and a living, breathing world.  SW:TOR will have a world, and I have no doubt that each location will feel as unique as they did in KOTOR, and the Mass Effect series.  Bioware knows how to establish a story, a history, and make you feel like you are a part of it, and that's what made WoW feel so special.  That's also what was missing from AoC, Warhammer and the many others that crashed and burned out of the gate.

  Szkieletor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/09
Posts: 35

9/11/10 10:08:38 AM#231

Nobody commenting here seems to have a slightest idea on why WoW is a succes.  I say: "you don't have to be good, you just have to be the best". It is as simple as that. WoW is the best MMO at this time. They have everything implemented the best way they could do (and they are very able in blizzard), not like some niche MMOs for PvPers only, or poor games with good graphics. They just covered everything. From PvP to PvE, from crafting to customisation, from proffessions to hobbys. It appeals to many people pecause everybody can find there something he want to go back to.

SWTOR just needs fun PvP, fun story, fun crafting, fun PvE, customisation and crafting done as good as they can. That, with some marketing will give them about 5-8m subscribers at some point in time. You can't compare SWTOR to MMOs that never even tried to compete with WoW. It was only PLYERS who hoped so. Now, it is a clear WoW competitor, the first one in the whole MMO history. And you are all mistaken if you think it is going to fail. At least if EA won't back it's support after 1 year.

  Moirae

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2585

9/11/10 10:30:53 AM#232
Originally posted by Szkieletor

Nobody commenting here seems to have a slightest idea on why WoW is a succes.  I say: "you don't have to be good, you just have to be the best". It is as simple as that. WoW is the best MMO at this time. They have everything implemented the best way they could do (and they are very able in blizzard), not like some niche MMOs for PvPers only, or poor games with good graphics. They just covered everything. From PvP to PvE, from crafting to customisation, from proffessions to hobbys. It appeals to many people pecause everybody can find there something he want to go back to.

SWTOR just needs fun PvP, fun story, fun crafting, fun PvE, customisation and crafting done as good as they can. That, with some marketing will give them about 5-8m subscribers at some point in time. You can't compare SWTOR to MMOs that never even tried to compete with WoW. It was only PLYERS who hoped so. Now, it is a clear WoW competitor, the first one in the whole MMO history. And you are all mistaken if you think it is going to fail. At least if EA won't back it's support after 1 year.

rofl... thats what we call "a matter of opinion". Personally, I think WoW is one of the crappiest games I've ever played. So no, I wouldn't say its the best game out there at this time.

If you're a wow fanboi, thats fine, but there are those of us who aren't.

SWTOR shouldn't copy ANYTHING from WoW. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been WoW with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game WoW if they had a brain in their skull.

  User Deleted
9/11/10 10:32:45 AM#233

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

  Moirae

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2585

9/11/10 10:40:11 AM#234
Originally posted by Snaylor47

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

Are you five years old?

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

9/11/10 11:02:59 AM#235
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Snaylor47

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

Are you five years old?

No, Snaylor47 just owned your argument though.  WoW is successful because there are many things it does right.

  Moirae

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/06
Posts: 2585

9/11/10 1:58:40 PM#236
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Snaylor47

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

Are you five years old?

No, Snaylor47 just owned your argument though.  WoW is successful because there are many things it does right.

lol... uh huh.. wow is successful and all the games that have copied it have failed. So whats your point? The reason wow is still successful is because of all the people that joined back when it was created who haven't left yet. That doesn't mean he owned my argument. It means he's dismissing facts because he's a wow fanboi.

  Szkieletor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/09
Posts: 35

9/11/10 6:28:13 PM#237
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Szkieletor

Nobody commenting here seems to have a slightest idea on why WoW is a succes.  I say: "you don't have to be good, you just have to be the best". It is as simple as that. WoW is the best MMO at this time. They have everything implemented the best way they could do (and they are very able in blizzard), not like some niche MMOs for PvPers only, or poor games with good graphics. They just covered everything. From PvP to PvE, from crafting to customisation, from proffessions to hobbys. It appeals to many people pecause everybody can find there something he want to go back to.

SWTOR just needs fun PvP, fun story, fun crafting, fun PvE, customisation and crafting done as good as they can. That, with some marketing will give them about 5-8m subscribers at some point in time. You can't compare SWTOR to MMOs that never even tried to compete with WoW. It was only PLYERS who hoped so. Now, it is a clear WoW competitor, the first one in the whole MMO history. And you are all mistaken if you think it is going to fail. At least if EA won't back it's support after 1 year.

rofl... thats what we call "a matter of opinion". Personally, I think WoW is one of the crappiest games I've ever played. So no, I wouldn't say its the best game out there at this time.

If you're a wow fanboi, thats fine, but there are those of us who aren't.

SWTOR shouldn't copy ANYTHING from WoW. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been WoW with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game WoW if they had a brain in their skull.

"Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been WoW with different graphics."

I gues what you are saying is: "I played WoW for 5 years and I'm sick of it, please don't make another WoW". This is just silly... SWTOR is nothing like WoW, and only a biased person who played WoW all their life could say so. Or does stylised realism make you think so? Well, it shouldn't. There is not a single released information that makes SWTOR similar to WoW in any way. Or maybe you are trying to say that every game where combat system involves pressing buttons from 1 to 10 or mouse to use skills is a WoW clone? Well, that is strange because it seems like MMOs released before 2004 would be WoW clones too... Did they use a time-machine?

Calling me a WoW fanboi is funny as well. You can't divide people on wow-haters and wow-fanbois. You must deal with being a minority, thats all. People who play WoW ocasionally, still have a lot to explore there. And they probably don't even know about this site existance. You can't judge all player-base only by some poll results on a website or by your own preferences.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

9/11/10 6:35:49 PM#238
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Snaylor47

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

Are you five years old?

No, Snaylor47 just owned your argument though.  WoW is successful because there are many things it does right.

lol... uh huh.. wow is successful and all the games that have copied it have failed. So whats your point? The reason wow is still successful is because of all the people that joined back when it was created who haven't left yet. That doesn't mean he owned my argument. It means he's dismissing facts because he's a wow fanboi.

All the games that have come out since WoW have been rushed and hence crappy.  Not many people would move from WoW to a worse game.  That is why WoW has maintained its success against WoW "clones" even when such games had significant features that were beyond what WoW did.  "Rushed games suck" is the lesson to be learned not "avoid all features that WoW has".

  Szkieletor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/09
Posts: 35

9/11/10 6:42:37 PM#239
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Moirae
Originally posted by Snaylor47

 

WoW shouldn't copy ANYTHING from EQ. Nearly every single game thats been released in the past 5 years has been EQ with different graphics. And nearly every single one of them failed almost as soon as they opened.

The bright person would learn from that and NOT make their game EQ if they had a brain in their skull.

Are you five years old?

No, Snaylor47 just owned your argument though.  WoW is successful because there are many things it does right.

lol... uh huh.. wow is successful and all the games that have copied it have failed. So whats your point? The reason wow is still successful is because of all the people that joined back when it was created who haven't left yet. That doesn't mean he owned my argument. It means he's dismissing facts because he's a wow fanboi.

All the games that have come out since WoW have been rushed and hence crappy.  Not many people would move from WoW to a worse game.  That is why WoW has maintained its success against WoW "clones" even when such games had significant features that were beyond what WoW did.  "Rushed games suck" is the lesson to be learned not "avoid all features that WoW has".

Exactly. You can't say MMO is like WoW just because it's an MMO. WoW does not have many innovative features (if any) and it is just an ordinary MMO with every feature polished and released in a better state than any other MMOs did.

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