Trending Games | Guild Wars 2 | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,920,521 Users Online:0
Games:760  Posts:6,311,800
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Just what the hell does "dumbed down" even mean anyway?

9 Pages First « 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 » Last Search
180 posts found
  User Deleted
3/21/10 7:09:03 AM#81

Dumbed down is making a game or game feature easier.

Some people consider accessibility to be a form of dumbing down.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4815

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

3/21/10 7:14:17 AM#82

dumbing down:

 

when being retarded doesn't cause you to separate from the non-retarded playerbase. 

 

basically a wheelchair ramp at an intellectual level. 

  camp11111

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/09
Posts: 638

3/21/10 7:34:04 AM#83
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by camp11111


 

Dumbed down is when people publish dumb things on a forum  about brilliant games.

The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team.

That's a perfect example of "dumbed down".

MMORPG.COM is full of it.

And apparently there ain't much talent around either when you see the mmo duds of the last 3 years.

Who knows some of the above even work for some companies.

it would explain a lot.

 

 

 


 

As opposed to vague mumblings of discontent over .. what exactly?  do you disagree with the issue of games being dumbed down, or with specific games that perhaps you think arent?  everyone is entitled to an opinion, but far better don't you think, to say why its your opinion?

 

Well it is quite obvious:
 

"The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team."

That's a perfect example of having dumb discussions about "dumbing down" in designs.

All video games are dumbed down experiences btw.

... or is the grading between intelligent and dumb dependant on the number of hours you are sitting in front of a monitor screen ?

 

 

 

 

Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

3/21/10 8:39:29 AM#84

If anything 'dumbed down' refers to levelling curve. Something that requires you to be not dumb. Or are you saying the 'dumbed down' phrase can mean  practically anything you want, anything bad that is. Yes, the time to the top is shortened, doesn't quite seem to demand the phrase dumbed down. Is anyone complaining and/or starting threads asking for level 2 to take a week instead of a day? "The game would be so much better if i have to kill 1000 bunnies instead of 10 to level!"

What you DO see complaints of is "The game is so easy, i can win just by using auto-attack".

I only dismiss community with respect to the phrase dumbed down. And i am only luke warm on that dismisal. Whether it makes for a good game doesn't apply to this thread. Start another thread and i'd be happy to join in.

My point on pvp was poorly written. I didn't say much, because i don't do it much. I didn't say you were wrong, because i don't have much knowledge on that area. I just reiterated that community seems to have little to do with dumbing down.

Regarding instancing, you state that the players could pick a green instance. And who says they can do that? The devs. Instances will be whatever difficulty they want. Thats the point of instances. It may not be possible for an instance to be green to you (if thats what the devs want). So your argument against instances is wrong. It will usually be harder to level with a game with instances than one without.

Devs increasing open world mobs to be all red? Red to who? There are 2 players there, one level 10, one level 30. The 10 attacks it. Does it change to  red to him (but still green to the 30?) Or are you saying it finds the  max level of everyone in the area and makes it red so that no one can advance in the game and everyone stays level 1. No, it doesn't work that way. The point of the open world is that they don't do that. The point  of instances is that they can change the mob to match the pc so the pc doesn't feel the need to grind to get to the level needed to win.

It doesn't have to do with 'dumbing down', but i often met new people in the STO instances, i had my settings set to 'open instance', which meant  that anyone who was doing the same instance could join in.

Evidence of negative simplification? You kind of have to be very specific. Negative? Simple?

Part of me wants to say that RPGS are supposed to be simple. You never needed to know the rules. You never needed to be a genius or athletic. You didn't need to make your own maps. Or keep track of loot tables. A newbie could join with an ongoing game and do just fine. That was the whole point. The complexity was hidden by the GM. They did the tough part, the players just had fun. To the extent people need to consult websites, or make lists of mobs to kill, the games have lost their goal. If the game is simple enough that nonsense like that isn't needed, well, they are approaching the RPG ideal.

But that of course is the easy part, the hard part is in making immersive games with interesting storylines, and thats a different thread.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5517

3/21/10 9:15:28 AM#85
Originally posted by camp11111
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by camp11111


 

Dumbed down is when people publish dumb things on a forum  about brilliant games.

The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team.

That's a perfect example of "dumbed down".

MMORPG.COM is full of it.

And apparently there ain't much talent around either when you see the mmo duds of the last 3 years.

Who knows some of the above even work for some companies.

it would explain a lot.

 

 

 


 

As opposed to vague mumblings of discontent over .. what exactly?  do you disagree with the issue of games being dumbed down, or with specific games that perhaps you think arent?  everyone is entitled to an opinion, but far better don't you think, to say why its your opinion?

 

Well it is quite obvious:
 

"The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team."

That's a perfect example of having dumb discussions about "dumbing down" in designs.

All video games are dumbed down experiences btw.

... or is the grading between intelligent and dumb dependant on the number of hours you are sitting in front of a monitor screen ?

 

 

 

 


 

obvious ? hardly, but your allusion to the users of MMORPG is odd to say the least. the rest is mostly irrelevant..

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1121

3/21/10 9:24:05 AM#86
Originally posted by rscott6666

<p>If anything 'dumbed down' refers to levelling curve. Something that requires you to be not dumb. Or are you saying the 'dumbed down' phrase can mean  practically anything you want, anything bad that is. Yes, the time to the top is shortened, doesn't quite seem to demand the phrase dumbed down. Is anyone complaining and/or starting threads asking for level 2 to take a week instead of a day? "The game would be so much better if i have to kill 1000 bunnies instead of 10 to level!"</p>
<p>What you DO see complaints of is "The game is so easy, i can win just by using auto-attack".</p>
<p>I only dismiss community with respect to the phrase dumbed down. And i am only luke warm on that dismisal. Whether it makes for a good game doesn't apply to this thread. Start another thread and i'd be happy to join in.</p>
<p>My point on pvp was poorly written. I didn't say much, because i don't do it much. I didn't say you were wrong, because i don't have much knowledge on that area. I just reiterated that community seems to have little to do with dumbing down.</p>
<p>Regarding instancing, you state that the players could pick a green instance. And who says they can do that? The devs. Instances will be whatever difficulty they (the devs) want. Thats the point of instances. It may not be possible for an instance to be green to you (if thats what the devs want). So your argument against instances is wrong. It will usually be harder to level with a game with instances than one without.</p>
<p>Devs increasing open world mobs to be all red? Red to who? There are 2 players there, one level 10, one level 30. The 10 attacks it. Does it change to red to him (but still green to the 30?) Or are you saying it finds the  max level of everyone in the area and makes it red so that no one can advance in the game and everyone stays level 1. No, it doesn't work that way. The point of the open world is that they don't do that. The point of instances is that they can change the mob to match the pc so the pc doesn't feel the need to grind to get to the level needed to win.</p>
<p>It doesn't have anything to do with 'dumbing down', but i often met new people in the STO instances, i had my settings set to 'open instance', which meant  that anyone who was doing the same instance could join in.</p>
<p>Evidence of negative simplification? You kind of have to be very specific. Negative? Simple?</p>
<p>Part of me wants to say that RPGS are supposed to be simple. You never needed to know the rules. You never needed to be a genius or athletic. You didn't need to make your own maps. Or keep track of loot tables. A newbie could join with an ongoing game and do just fine. That was the whole point. The complexity was hidden by the GM. They did the tough part, the players just had fun. To the extent people need to consult websites, or make lists of mobs to kill, the games have lost their goal. If the game is simple enough that nonsense like that isn't needed, well, they are approaching the RPG ideal.</p>
<p>But that of course is the easy part, the hard part is in making immersive games with interesting storylines, and thats a different thread.<br />
 

The formatting seems to have screwed up so I apologise in advance if I missed anything in your post.

The problem I'm starting to see through this thread is that it's not possible to look at each of the features of an MMO in isolation with regards to 'dumbing down'. There are a lot of knock-on effects. For example, dumbing down with regards to time it takes to level would be a non-issue if levelling was actually fun. The problem is that it's not fun at all in the current gen of soloable MMOs because the devs build everything around endgame.

And to your point about killing 10 or 1000 bunnies. If you look at it differently in terms of quests... I wouldn't mind if it took 10 quests to reach the cap if those quests were long, involving and fun. The amount of time it takes to level does not necessarily equate to the amount of repetition and subsequent grind. I remember at launch EQ2 had a significantly steeper levelling curve than WoW and thus took a lot longer, yet ironically WoW actually feels grindier as its quests are pointless and uninteresting. In EQ2 I didn't even need to focus on levelling since I got great xp just by dungeon crawling, something I did for the fun of it as opposed to just to get xp. This is the point I was trying to make. Rather than try to make the levelling process any more fun, or interesting, the devs just make it shorter so players don't have to endure it for as long. As a result the game may as well not even have levels as no one finds the levelling fun, and like you said, fun is exactly what they were originally meant to be.

With regards to making instances or open world mobs all red, I'm aware that doing that to an open world environment wouldn't work. I was trying to highlight the arbitrary nature of such a feature in instancing. To prevent players from experiencing lower level content both wastes such content and frustrates the players that actually wish to experience it just for the fun of it. The risk/reward concept that most MMOs employ ensures that players face off against even encounters so that sort of scaling really isn't necessary. Scaling may prevent a grind for players to be able to win, sure, but it actually creates a new grind. Remember how unpopular the level scaling system was in Oblivion? Players don't like scaling because then the challenge always remains the same. Players like to be able to put themselves up against greater and greater odds of defeat... as well as occasionally just some easy trash for the hell of it. Scaling makes things grindy because they never change, which makes the problems I highlighted about instances in my previous post even worse. I won't even start to go into the fact that systems like these make the games feel less and less like virtual worlds and more and more like a game lobby.

I agree that RPGs need to be simple, simplicicity itself isn't the problem. The problems start to arise when this simplicity makes it hard for players to feel like they're actually any good at what they're doing. If things are too simple then anyone can do it and thus any sense of achievement is lost. There needs to be some level of distinction between good and bad players; the good players who can, and the bad players who can't. Without this there is no risk of being unsuccessful and, therefore, no reward when you are successful. This is the negative simplification that I'm talking of. To put it bluntly the genre is oversimplifying things to the point that anyone can do it... When anyone can do something how can you feel like you've achieved anything?

 

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/21/10 1:05:21 PM#87

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5517

3/21/10 1:10:26 PM#88
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 


 

.... isnt  WoW's format largely based on the EQ one.. ?

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/21/10 1:16:39 PM#89
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 


 

.... isnt  WoW's format largely based on the EQ one.. ?

 

No, not even close

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/21/10 1:18:50 PM#90
Originally posted by Robokapp

dumbing down:

 

when being retarded doesn't cause you to separate from the non-retarded playerbase. 

 

basically a wheelchair ramp ...

 

Dude. Not. Cool. Seriously!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

3/21/10 1:22:15 PM#91
Originally posted by huge_froglok
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 


 

.... isnt  WoW's format largely based on the EQ one.. ?

 

No, not even close

In terms of gear/expansion/raid grind, yes. 

In terms of world construction, quests, leveling, social atmosphere, depth, not even close. 

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/21/10 1:24:48 PM#92
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by huge_froglok
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 


 

.... isnt  WoW's format largely based on the EQ one.. ?

 

No, not even close

In terms of gear/expansion/raid grind, yes. 

In terms of world construction, quests, leveling, social atmosphere, depth, not even close. 

 

Gear? No. everyone has the same gear in WoW.  How many people in EQ would have something like a Sceptre of Destruction or Fungi Tunic?  Not the whole server, like in WoW.

Raid grind? No.  EQ raids were actually challenging.  EQ raids weren't so forgiving either.

 

  Amathe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 1666

3/21/10 1:25:52 PM#93

If you compare game features at their most rudimentary levels, sure you can try to equate them. EQ had character stats, Wow had character stats. You kill things and do quests for experience in both games. You have tanks and healers in both games. And so on.

But that's not a fair comparison. Checkers and chess are both played on boards. They both involve the movement of pieces. In both games you can capture the other player's pieces, and advance the power of one of your own pieces by arriving at the first rank of your opponent's side of the board. However, checkers is not nearly as difficult and substantive a game as chess.  

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  Trowar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/02/07
Posts: 150

3/21/10 1:37:32 PM#94

You used Command and Conquer 3 as an example. I raise with "Black Shark".  PC games can be much more advanced, "intelligent" so to speak, than a console game. "Black shark" is the most extreme example of this.

You can check out the manual for it: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php

It is a 27,6 mb pdf file. The manual is 534 pages long. Try to port that one to a console without dumbing it down.

  Avanah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 901

3/21/10 1:52:55 PM#95
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 

 

I really wish you were a Developer or some big MMO company would hire you. To bring us all back to REAL MMO gaming, the way it was meant to be...putting thoughts into your actions and paying for mistakes.

I sure know back in the days a 8 yr olds had no clue on the way EQ played or how to survive it, because there were not many young kids at all playing it. (I was playing EQ since Beta)

In WoW today, there are actually 8 yr olds understanding it and playing it. MMO Devs are catering more to a younger crowd than those that put in their sweat and tears to make all the MMOS of today possible.

I'm still waiting for that MMO where you have to use your mind to play it and not AFK your way thru. I want the MMO where 13 yr olds find it too difficult to play or understand.

I want an MMO where penalties hurt your character:

In WoW if you screw up(just an example)..Blizzard pats you on the back, tells you it's ok and you move on..Is that fun? Not really, since you had no adrenaline rush at all during that process.

In a (hope to see) future MMO I want to see you lose gear, exp ect and really feel your heart pound when you screw up, having to re-collect exp, lost gear ect...to really draw you in (UO Pre-trammel).

Your actions really having consequences, not just a repair bill and a slap on the wrist.

I do not want to be fed Gameplay for an 8 yr old. Give me gameplay and content suitable for an older gamers mindset.

MMOs are not supposed to be rated downward...16 and below (It's starting to lean that way in WoW).

Dont get me wrong here..I even played WoW from Beta till about 3 weeks ago. It is a great game for the most part. It's when the challenge gets removed and the handfeeding that starts...contributing to me leaving it for now.

If Cata does not re-introduce the aspects of a harsher death penalty and more challenging gameplay to give us older gamers something to look forward to, I would see no reason to return but wait for an MMO that puts the *GASP* into the game rather than the *YAWN*.

But that's just me! :)


TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

  huge_froglok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/10
Posts: 145

3/21/10 2:31:27 PM#96
Originally posted by windsoul44
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 

 

I really wish you were a Developer or some big MMO company would hire you. To bring us all back to REAL MMO gaming, the way it was meant to be...putting thoughts into your actions and paying for mistakes.

I sure know back in the days a 8 yr olds had no clue on the way EQ played or how to survive it, because there were not many young kids at all playing it. (I was playing EQ since Beta)

In WoW today, there are actually 8 yr olds understanding it and playing it. MMO Devs are catering more to a younger crowd than those that put in their sweat and tears to make all the MMOS of today possible.

I'm still waiting for that MMO where you have to use your mind to play it and not AFK your way thru. I want the MMO where 13 yr olds find it too difficult to play or understand.

I want an MMO where penalties hurt your character:

In WoW if you screw up(just an example)..Blizzard pats you on the back, tells you it's ok and you move on..Is that fun? Not really, since you had no adrenaline rush at all during that process.

In a (hope to see) future MMO I want to see you lose gear, exp ect and really feel your heart pound when you screw up, having to re-collect exp, lost gear ect...to really draw you in (UO Pre-trammel).

Your actions really having consequences, not just a repair bill and a slap on the wrist.

I do not want to be fed Gameplay for an 8 yr old. Give me gameplay and content suitable for an older gamers mindset.

MMOs are not supposed to be rated downward...16 and below (It's starting to lean that way in WoW).

Dont get me wrong here..I even played WoW from Beta till about 3 weeks ago. It is a great game for the most part. It's when the challenge gets removed and the handfeeding that starts...contributing to me leaving it for now.

If Cata does not re-introduce the aspects of a harsher death penalty and more challenging gameplay to give us older gamers something to look forward to, I would see no reason to return but wait for an MMO that puts the *GASP* into the game rather than the *YAWN*.

But that's just me! :)


 

WoW isn't even like an MMORPG anymore.  It used to have lots of World Spawns, it never had all the cross server bullshit either. I thought MMORPGS were supposed to offer a World, but WoW is more like Diablo 2 or Guildwars than anything.  I can't think of any useful shared zones in WoW.  The zones are just scenery you use to get to an instance.  It's not an MMORPG.  Nothing massive about 5 man instancing all day, or not interacting with anyone on your server.

WoW really dumbed their game down a while ago though.  My guild, probably one of the best guilds in the whole country, fled WoW around the time their first expansion was released.  Doing content when no one else could,  that was the only time I enjoyed WoW.  Now, with everyone being equal, and content being trivialized, none of us had any reason to play. 

They turned everyone into nobodies by dumbing their game down unfortunately, people just can't be gods in WoW unfortunately.  You can do a World first and you're still a nobody because the content wasn't difficult to begin with.

You could be at the top of WoWs endgame, their PvE system and PvP system.  Then you go to another MMORPG, try to brag about that one, and they would just laugh you out of the MMORPG anymore.  Being at the top of WoW just doesn't have any value anymore.  There is not a sense of accomplishment when you're just a statistic.

Basically, anyone looking for a challenge shouldn't go anywhere near Blizzard products.

 

I wish I was developing MMORPGs too, so I could bring back inequality.  People should have to work hard, so they feel a sense of accomplishment when they do something in an MMORPG.  I could tear through WoW content now and I wouldn't feel a thing.

 

 

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/21/10 2:34:54 PM#97
Originally posted by Trowar

You used Command and Conquer 3 as an example. I raise with "Black Shark".  PC games can be much more advanced, "intelligent" so to speak, than a console game. "Black shark" is the most extreme example of this.

You can check out the manual for it: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php

It is a 27,6 mb pdf file. The manual is 534 pages long. Try to port that one to a console without dumbing it down.

 

Hell, flightsims are almost impossible to do on a PC without "dumbing it down." Unless you have something like this:

or this:

Then you're doing it wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Avanah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 901

3/21/10 7:49:52 PM#98
Originally posted by huge_froglok
Originally posted by windsoul44
Originally posted by huge_froglok

Know what dumbs down MMORPGS?

Quest-for-exp systems.  In older MMORPGs you could travel anywhere, level anywhere.  There weren't any quests telling you: kill 5 scarab beetles, kill them again, kill them again. etc.  What's most ridiculous is people defend these quest systems, as if they are more interesting than finding exp spots on their own. 

Maps.  What happened to looking at your screen when traveling?  I guess companies thought players were too dumb to navigate using some kind of /loc system like EQ had.  I remember traveling in WoW, you don't even look at the world, you just have your map up and watch an arrow basically.  Brainless kind of travel

Instanced PVE.  Instances tend to be implemented linearly, you go from start to finish.  There is not "lets take this path instead of that one".  You always know where to go in an instance.  Contrast this with a game like EQ where the zones were massive and you picked what camp you wanted.

I can't think of one instance in WoW where you wouldn't just clear the whole thing.. because the bosses are all on the path to the end.  Plus the instances aren't even persistent.  The boss locations and spawns are predictable, all you have to do is start a new instance and your bosses are at locations X,Y, and Z.  In EQ, it required people to know where rare spawns were, tricks to spawning them, etc.

EQ wasn't linear, and WoW was.  WoW is dumbed down and linear, why else would it be popular?  

 

 

 

I really wish you were a Developer or some big MMO company would hire you. To bring us all back to REAL MMO gaming, the way it was meant to be...putting thoughts into your actions and paying for mistakes.

I sure know back in the days a 8 yr olds had no clue on the way EQ played or how to survive it, because there were not many young kids at all playing it. (I was playing EQ since Beta)

In WoW today, there are actually 8 yr olds understanding it and playing it. MMO Devs are catering more to a younger crowd than those that put in their sweat and tears to make all the MMOS of today possible.

I'm still waiting for that MMO where you have to use your mind to play it and not AFK your way thru. I want the MMO where 13 yr olds find it too difficult to play or understand.

I want an MMO where penalties hurt your character:

In WoW if you screw up(just an example)..Blizzard pats you on the back, tells you it's ok and you move on..Is that fun? Not really, since you had no adrenaline rush at all during that process.

In a (hope to see) future MMO I want to see you lose gear, exp ect and really feel your heart pound when you screw up, having to re-collect exp, lost gear ect...to really draw you in (UO Pre-trammel).

Your actions really having consequences, not just a repair bill and a slap on the wrist.

I do not want to be fed Gameplay for an 8 yr old. Give me gameplay and content suitable for an older gamers mindset.

MMOs are not supposed to be rated downward...16 and below (It's starting to lean that way in WoW).

Dont get me wrong here..I even played WoW from Beta till about 3 weeks ago. It is a great game for the most part. It's when the challenge gets removed and the handfeeding that starts...contributing to me leaving it for now.

If Cata does not re-introduce the aspects of a harsher death penalty and more challenging gameplay to give us older gamers something to look forward to, I would see no reason to return but wait for an MMO that puts the *GASP* into the game rather than the *YAWN*.

But that's just me! :)


 

WoW isn't even like an MMORPG anymore.  It used to have lots of World Spawns, it never had all the cross server bullshit either. I thought MMORPGS were supposed to offer a World, but WoW is more like Diablo 2 or Guildwars than anything.  I can't think of any useful shared zones in WoW.  The zones are just scenery you use to get to an instance.  It's not an MMORPG.  Nothing massive about 5 man instancing all day, or not interacting with anyone on your server.

WoW really dumbed their game down a while ago though.  My guild, probably one of the best guilds in the whole country, fled WoW around the time their first expansion was released.  Doing content when no one else could,  that was the only time I enjoyed WoW.  Now, with everyone being equal, and content being trivialized, none of us had any reason to play. 

They turned everyone into nobodies by dumbing their game down unfortunately, people just can't be gods in WoW unfortunately.  You can do a World first and you're still a nobody because the content wasn't difficult to begin with.

You could be at the top of WoWs endgame, their PvE system and PvP system.  Then you go to another MMORPG, try to brag about that one, and they would just laugh you out of the MMORPG anymore.  Being at the top of WoW just doesn't have any value anymore.  There is not a sense of accomplishment when you're just a statistic.

Basically, anyone looking for a challenge shouldn't go anywhere near Blizzard products.

 

I wish I was developing MMORPGs too, so I could bring back inequality.  People should have to work hard, so they feel a sense of accomplishment when they do something in an MMORPG.  I could tear through WoW content now and I wouldn't feel a thing.

 

 

 

Agree 184% :)

TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

  ArcAngel3

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/06
Posts: 2941

Momento Mori

3/22/10 1:56:26 AM#99
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

Your calling b.s. on this term really just indicates to me that you're not very aware of some of the major game revamps that some MMOs have undergone. 

Lucasarts and Sony Online Entertainment, for example, said that their MMO had too much reading and was too complex for the people they wanted to attract.  So, they intentionally, and admittedly "dumbed down" the game.  They got rid of about 2 dozen professions, deleted the skill system, made the player economy moot, removed numerous combat skills and animations, and turned the game into a mind-numbing, point and click disaster that led to the exodus of what looked to be about a few hundred thousand of their customers.

Does "dumbing down" happen in the MMO genre?  Yup, unfortunately.

P.S. Here's a quote from a press release about the dumbing down of the StarWars MMO:

"We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base," said Nancy MacIntyre, the game's senior director at LucasArts. "There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat. We needed to give people more of an opportunity to be a part of what they have seen in the movies rather than something they had created themselves." 

Player response documented here: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/star-wars-galaxies-2005/667893p1.html

If you really want to know what dumbing a game down means, this is it. 

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

3/23/10 7:05:55 AM#100
Originally posted by Alberel

The formatting seems to have screwed up so I apologise in advance if I missed anything in your post.

The problem I'm starting to see through this thread is that it's not possible to look at each of the features of an MMO in isolation with regards to 'dumbing down'. There are a lot of knock-on effects. For example, dumbing down with regards to time it takes to level would be a non-issue if levelling was actually fun. The problem is that it's not fun at all in the current gen of soloable MMOs because the devs build everything around endgame.

And to your point about killing 10 or 1000 bunnies. If you look at it differently in terms of quests... I wouldn't mind if it took 10 quests to reach the cap if those quests were long, involving and fun. The amount of time it takes to level does not necessarily equate to the amount of repetition and subsequent grind. I remember at launch EQ2 had a significantly steeper levelling curve than WoW and thus took a lot longer, yet ironically WoW actually feels grindier as its quests are pointless and uninteresting. In EQ2 I didn't even need to focus on levelling since I got great xp just by dungeon crawling, something I did for the fun of it as opposed to just to get xp. This is the point I was trying to make. Rather than try to make the levelling process any more fun, or interesting, the devs just make it shorter so players don't have to endure it for as long. As a result the game may as well not even have levels as no one finds the levelling fun, and like you said, fun is exactly what they were originally meant to be.

With regards to making instances or open world mobs all red, I'm aware that doing that to an open world environment wouldn't work. I was trying to highlight the arbitrary nature of such a feature in instancing. To prevent players from experiencing lower level content both wastes such content and frustrates the players that actually wish to experience it just for the fun of it. The risk/reward concept that most MMOs employ ensures that players face off against even encounters so that sort of scaling really isn't necessary. Scaling may prevent a grind for players to be able to win, sure, but it actually creates a new grind. Remember how unpopular the level scaling system was in Oblivion? Players don't like scaling because then the challenge always remains the same. Players like to be able to put themselves up against greater and greater odds of defeat... as well as occasionally just some easy trash for the hell of it. Scaling makes things grindy because they never change, which makes the problems I highlighted about instances in my previous post even worse. I won't even start to go into the fact that systems like these make the games feel less and less like virtual worlds and more and more like a game lobby.

I agree that RPGs need to be simple, simplicicity itself isn't the problem. The problems start to arise when this simplicity makes it hard for players to feel like they're actually any good at what they're doing. If things are too simple then anyone can do it and thus any sense of achievement is lost. There needs to be some level of distinction between good and bad players; the good players who can, and the bad players who can't. Without this there is no risk of being unsuccessful and, therefore, no reward when you are successful. This is the negative simplification that I'm talking of. To put it bluntly the genre is oversimplifying things to the point that anyone can do it... When anyone can do something how can you feel like you've achieved anything?

 

Sorry about the formatting, not sure how that happened.

I still don't agree that dumbing down is with respect to time it takes to hit max (or whatever).  If it does, then i don't feel its a valid phrase because it shouldn't matter how fast or slow you level.  Levelling speed should never be a consideration.  Some of my funnest mmorpgs times were when i ignored (or actually forgot) where the xp bar was.  I just played and played.  Levelling speed was, as it should be, forgotten.

Instancing isn't arbitrary, it is, or should be, part of a grand plan.  A set of related encounters in a sequence.  Some instances are all greens, some are not.  Its never the same.  You don't get the grindy feeling when its done well.  Oblivions scaling was just poorly done, i didn't care for it either.  Imho COX did it much better. 

However, my point was that no matter how its done, its up to the devs to 'dumb it down or not' whatever that means.  The programming trick by itself does not lead by its very nature to anything dumb or smart.  Just like the open world does not lead to dumb or smart.  Either one could be very hard or very easy. 

I don't think players need to feel like they are any good at playing.  They just need to have fun.  I wasn't any good at simcity, but it was fun making various cities.  It was a good game no matter how good I personally was at it.  Thats how mmorpgs should be.  Whether i bankrupt my character and kill it 100x a week, or keep my streak of no-deaths going for several months, as long as its fun, thats what matters.  And if the game can handle noobs like my mom or my neice going all the way, its a testament to how good the game is.  A sucky game would be hard and make them quit after 20-30 levels.

9 Pages First « 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 » Last Search