In terms of general gaming I would refer to dumped down as when a challenge is taken out of the game and that same thing that once was challenging is made very easy, dumped down also means to me eliminating the options I had for less options.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

I'm not sure I understand your point at all.

If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges?  Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?

 

 

 

I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.

I think the idea here is comparing WOW (a relatively simple game) to Hello Kitty Online (an even simpler game), and would WOW players be Elitists by assuming Hello Kitty Online is too easy. WOW and Hello Kitty Online are both MMOs, whereas a bowling pin and a razor are not both bowling pins, so.....

I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.

Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."

LOL! Feel better now?

 

If you want a perfect example of dumbed down then look at supreme commander and supreme commander 2. The comparison is even worse when you throw in the stand alone expansion for SupCom 1: Forged Alliance.

SupCom2 just pales into comparison to the depth that SupCom1 offered in almost all areas. SupCom2's goal was to make it much more console friendly and streamlined, but something is wrong when streamlining means gutting core features that the fanbase enjoyed. I think the only pro I can really think of for SupCom2 over SupCom1 is it runs better, and that's just because they simplified the graphics in certain areas to perform better on 360.

I never really got into Supreme Commander. It was mostly due to the time commitment thing. After my first four hour online match I decided to just let the game collect dust. I still occasionally play TA Spring though. I likewise haven't played Supreme Commander 2 yet. Been to busy with the R.U.S.E. beta.

But what you're talking about IS one of the few situations where the term actually makes sense. But, and this is key, only if the game hasn't been gutted and turned into something completely different. From what I've heard, SupCom 2 has the same kind of emphasis as the first game, so you're probably right to use the term.

I made this thread primarily to point out how over used and abused this term is. It's one thing when you can specifically point out how something has been neutered, but totally different when you just  throw out "dumbed down" and leave it at that.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.

Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."

 

I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.

Baldur's Gate II  >>> Dragon Age: Origine

Thats the essence of  "dumb down". Enough said...

edit: since this is an MMO forum I'll go with this then:

EQ / FFXI / DAoC >>> WoW / Aion / WAR

Do you get what dounb down means now?

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.

Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."

 

 

I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.

Actually I was just having fun with hyperbole. I'll admit that it came off harsh, but it was sure fun to write.

But yeah.... If you realize that 2 > 1 and that a fighter needs to be strong while a ranger needs to be agile then you're well prepared to play every RPG ever made. It isn't rocket surgery.

Dumbed Down = Dictionary.com  vs. Urbandictionary.com.

Just one example.

dumbed down typically means for a game is.

the game is extreamly easy to play,  an example would be comparing a MUD based game or DnD tabletop to that of say pong.

pong being the dumbed down version.

todays standards any game that a vast majority of gamers feels is lacking in skill or difficalty is tagged as dumbed down.  more so if its playable with next to no difficatly by younger children.

doesnt mean the game isnt fun, just a vast majorty feel is not very hard or lacking it all together.

Let me give you an example of dumbed down in the mother of all MMOs.

WOW - Starting area  -  dwarfs and gnomes.  Trolls that attacked you before (red) now stand and pick their nose while you kill another troll from 1 feet away.     That has been changed cause before you were attacked by these exact same trolls.  Now... its just an example... but it also goes tho show how stupid things can look when you stand surrounded by same type of mobs that are supposed to have some sort awareness but then are changed into total crap.

This is exactly what I have been critisiing with most of other MMOs.... Now  Wow has done the exact same thing... Its the lazy and cheap way to dumb down things...  But dumbed down never the less.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by Nekrataal

Baldur's Gate II  >>> Dragon Age: Origine

Thats the essence of  "dumb down". Enough said...

edit: since this is an MMO forum I'll go with this then:

EQ / FFXI / DAoC >>> WoW / Aion / WAR

Do you get what dounb down means now?

 

No because your comparisons make no specific arguments as to WHY side A is better than side B.

Yes, I've played most of those games. No I don't see one hell of a lot of difference. Details or your just talking out of your nethers.

It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW.

EQ >>> WoW

--- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding)

--- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community)

--- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix)

--- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)

Ironically the one major thing that has stayed consistent between these two games is the obsession with raiding as the primary valid end-game activity. Even there people will claim it has been dumbed down as it is much easier to raid in WoW than in EQ, though IMO raiding is a flawed system in the first place as more players and more time needed does not make anything more challenging.

You can also look at DAOC's 3 faction RvR against WAR's 2 faction RvR. Most people will agree that the former allowed for the players to balance themselves whilst the latter is the most unbalanced system you can have.

IMO the majority of the 'dumbing down' occurs for three reasons:

--- To appeal to more casual players as things become easier or less time consuming.

--- To reduce the potential for players to affect the experience of other players (i.e. to prevent griefing) though this most commonly cuts out massive swathes of features that encourage community interaction and creates a very sterile play experience as no one feels like they are having any genuine effect on anything in the world.

--- To cut back on costs.

I think the majority of the cause is actually the second point. The devs don't like their players to be frustrated by other players, but in the attempt to solve this issue they remove any feeling of a living virtual world. Community interaction (or the recent lack thereof) is IMO the biggest example of 'dumbing down' in modern MMOs.

Another good example of dumbing down is what happend to AoC when in the middle of development, they decided to make the game xbox360 compatible. Changed the whole combat dynamic to be simpler and controller friendly.

Originally posted by Alberel

It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW.

EQ >>> WoW

--- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding)

--- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community)

--- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix)

--- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)

And you are mostly wrong in these accoutns.

EQ hard to level?  Find a green, kill.  Wait for it to respawn.  Repeat.  Not very tough, and nothing is dumbed down from this.  You can still do this in any game, its not any dumber.

Group oriented?  Eh, not sure on this one.  Community.  Not really a dumb/not dumb issue.

Instanced. Wrong.  Instancing just gives the developer more control over what you encounter.  They could just as easily force all your instances to be against reds, and the game would be much harder.  But even then, the in the open world games, you could fall back to killing greens.  So in principle, the open world games are easier.  Dumbed down.  In practice its about even.

PvP don't really do it much.  But again community is a non issue.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Vypre

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Vypre

The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.

Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.

Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link.  What to I know though.  WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.

Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release?

They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game.  Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game.  Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.

TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to. The wrong usage of the phrase.

You're using it in a manner in which a level of superiority is being expressed. Which reads to me as the intelligent wouldn't play it. As if intelligence has anything to do with which game a person plays.

That would be like me saying I won't play EQ because I'm not dumb enough to subject myself to it's harsh penalties. Implying those who are playing are of  lesser intelligence than I. Which would be an idiotic statement on my part.

There are times the phrase makes sense, most of the time it's used when it doesn't.  DA not being like BG so it must be "dumbed down". is a prime example of that. We're talking about products geared for someone else, that doesn't mean they were dumbed down, because those games are made for morons. It means they're for a different generation or demographic.

This use of the word is nothing but pure elitism IMO. Self gratification and nothing more.

A good example in which to use the phrase would be SWG. They actually stated they felt their game was to difficult and required to much research. That's a prime example of dumbing down a product, it still shouldn't give anyone some misguided feeling of superiority though. The only moron in such a situation is the spokesperson making such claims, not the players they intend on targeting.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game.  Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.

 

TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to.

Bah. Its all opinions, and anyone can spin anything they want outside the context of a definition, such as it depends on what the definition of 'is' is.

The OP is calling BS on the usage of the word, and I say its fitting for games in their entirety,such as STO and Champions Online.  And fitting is game-play elements associated with WoW, but I dont know if I'd go out on a limb and say the entire product is dumbed down.

Originally posted by rscott6666

Originally posted by Alberel

It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW.

EQ >>> WoW

--- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding)

--- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community)

--- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix)

--- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)

And you are mostly wrong in these accoutns.

EQ hard to level?  Find a green, kill.  Wait for it to respawn.  Repeat.  Not very tough, and nothing is dumbed down from this.  You can still do this in any game, its not any dumber.

Group oriented?  Eh, not sure on this one.  Community.  Not really a dumb/not dumb issue.

Instanced. Wrong.  Instancing just gives the developer more control over what you encounter.  They could just as easily force all your instances to be against reds, and the game would be much harder.  But even then, the in the open world games, you could fall back to killing greens.  So in principle, the open world games are easier.  Dumbed down.  In practice its about even.

PvP don't really do it much.  But again community is a non issue.

I was not referring to the difficulty of the levelling curve, but the time required. There is no disputing that times to reach the level cap have been reduced or 'dumbed down' in ALL recent MMOs. The devs have done this to appeal to more casual players as well as to respond to the fallacy that the game starts at end-game and thus everyone needs to get there as fast as possible. The problem is that in both cases they are wrong; casual players don't need faster levelling time, they just need to be able to get something done in a short space of time, and a harsh levelling cruve does not affect that. Raiding is not the 'start' of the game, because if that were true then there'd be no point in having levels at all. Levelling has been simplified for the hell of it as the devs can't be bothered to work out another system that would better suit the demands of modern gamers. I'm pretty sure this is why there's such a growing demand for sandbox style character progression now.

The rest of your post is just wrong. You completely dismiss community as a key point in making a good MMO when the entire concept of the genre is that you are interacting with other players. Community is arguably THE most important thing in an MMO and if you haven't played one that actually has a solid community then you don't really have any place responding to this as you wouldn't be able to understand. To put it in RPG terms, 'community' normally operates like the LUCK stat. It never seems to affect anything directly but EVERYTHING is ultimately improved by it. Unless you'd played a community centric MMO and actually become involved in the entire server community it's value would be lost on you. The most significant result of a strong community, I've found, is that levelling becomes much less of a race, you generally have fun just doing anything in the game because you can see the actual contributions you're making and thus you have no inane obsession with reaching the cap just to 'start' playing the game.

As for grouping, when people don't have to group as much they take the path of least resistance and just solo all the time. Everyone will always say 'well the option is there to group' but it doesn't work like that as MMOs are competitive in nature and finding anyone to group with in a game that has no reason to group is like getting blood from a stone. When someone spends most of their time soloing you end up with a series of disconnects with the rest of the game:

--- They have little to no idea of how to play their character in a group environment despite the 'endgame' being entirely focussed on exactly that. This seems rather arbitrary. And remember, you can't argue that they don't need to know before endgame since to do that would be agreeing with me that levelling is pretty much a redundant concept in WoW, and that situation is also the result of being 'dumbed down'. I recognise that this is somewhat resolved in WoW's new dungeon finder but that actually exacerbates the instancing issue which I'll get onto again in a minute.

--- They know absolutely no one. Barring IRL friends, most people I know who've played WoW have not made a significant friendship with another player before they reach the level cap. Again this is arbitrary since the entire endgame relies on players working together and necessitates such relationships.

Instancing, btw, does not just give the devs more tools. It truly does damage the community. As an example I'll look at public dungeons. In an instance you are the only players there, you know the mobs will always follow the same AI routines and you know there is zero chance of any other variable affecting you. This leads to repetitive grind; nothing changes on multiple runs through the instance, it loses any sense of challenge as you grow accustomed to the static encounters, and it quickly becomes boring. You also never meet anyone new, there's no chance of you bumping into anyone halfway down, there's no chance of you arriving just in time to save a group before they wipe, or rez their healer if they already have wiped, there's no chance of you picking up stragglers on the way down, and most of all there is almost no chance of you chatting to anyone. By chatting I mean actually having a conversation, not discussing boss tactics or having a go at someone for screwing up. This is only made worse by WoW's dungeon finder system since most of the players you end up with aren't even on your server so if you somehow did strike up a conversation or make a good friendhsip with them you'd never be able to play alongside them.

To put it differently, in EQ2 (which was actually a pretty good game despite it's teething problems) I ran one dungeon for several weeks. I mean I spent all of my playing time in that dungeon. I never got bored with it because every time I went in things would play out differently. There were multiple routes to the bottom so it never felt like I was running the same content (and, for that matter, reaching the bottom was no simple task, the dungeon was huge which is another example of dumbing down as modern dunegons are linear and extremely short) there were many other players in there both assisting and obstructing our progress and this added a great deal of variation to the experience and kept things interesting. Compare this to WoW's instances... most players are bored of them after a couple of runs but only continue to run them for the loot.

Also the part about "They could just as easily force all your instances to be against reds, and the game would be much harder. But even then, the in the open world games, you could fall back to killing greens. So in principle, the open world games are easier." You do realise that this makes no sense right? Players in instanced games could also just as easily go and kill greens in a lower level instance. The devs could just as easily alter the difficulty of mobs in an open world game to be reds.Players would never actually do this, of course, as these things are built on the concept of risk vs reward. To go and kill greens would give no significant reward and thus no one would bother.

Your point on PvP is actually laughable. You admit to having no experience in it and then go on to suggest you even know what you're talking about. In WoW, PvP community truly is a non-issue, yes. But that that is the direct result of instancing (feel free to re-read that paragraph to remind yourself of why instancing damages communities). No need to argue that WoW has open PvP servers; open PvP died in that game when they released battlegrounds. PvP instances make scenarios feel repetitive again, they turn PvP into a grind, things are overly balanced and sterile. Just like in the dungeons example, there is little room for variations in play experience and thus boredom sets in much quicker.

Now look at open PvP in a game that didn't gut it with instancing. Look at DAOC, there was something in that game commonly referred to as 'realm pride'. It was essentially virtual patriotism to whatever faction a player belonged. Now how can you even think to suggest that community is a non-issue in PvP? By having three factions the players balanced themselves and since everything was open no two fights would feel the same. Everything was dynamic and players had to react to that, it didn't get boring, unlike instanced PvP.

Community is one of those issues that devs need to be aware of so they can know when to ignore player whining, something that Blizzard has seemingly lost the ability to do. Yes it made them a lot of money, but it's also degraded the game and 'dumbed it down' a hell of a lot. The majority of the people that the game now appeals to are casual players who wouldn't notice the issues I've pointed out because they would never have been able to experience the benefits of a strong community in the first place. People whine when they get ganked, they whine when things are too hard, they whine most of all when they need to rely on other players or are forced into interaction. What they never realise is that those interactions are what make MMOs fun, they're what make them different to single player games. Without the community factors players find themselves just grinding day in, day out. They have no fun playing the game any more but continue to log in just for the loot.

I know people are suggesting that the term 'dumbed down' is widely overused, and often incorrectly so, and I'd agree with that. But just look at the term: to 'dumb' something down implies to make it simpler, in a negative way, in the interests of wider appeal. I'll go so far as to admit that it is elitist in nature. Effectively player A likes something, that something is then simplified to appeal more to players B and C who don't play games as much but they make the company more money. Player A no longer likes what the game has become, it is now too easy for him and he finds it boring, it's just not fun any more. Player A leaves the game because it has been 'dumbed down' to appeal to newer players with shorter attention spans, less time to play and no desire to interact with other players. The genre that his subscription fees have helped to create has changed into something he dislikes. You can't really blame him for criticising the process.

Do you honestly not see any evidence of this in modern MMOs?

Far from being a non-issue i would say that community is a very big issue, and i agree with almost everything Alberel says in fact, it is something that will make a good game great, or if handled badly, terrible. Daoc had, without a doubt a really good community spirit, but it was a game that encouraged people to work together, and of course to compete against each other, but not as individuals, SWG was yet another game, awesome community, a game where all you had was a survival knife and a melon... everything in the game was made by another player, there was a great deal of interdependance, a reason really, for players to work together, build cities that were most often guild based, then again of course, there was the factional warfare, it wasnt really handled that well but it was 'good enough' at the time..  to say that community had an effect on the game is highlighted by the fact that when SOE effectively attacked that community, the game almost died, in fact i dont think its ever recovered from it. So imo, the more you dumb down games, the more soloable you make them, the less fun they will be, because imo, MMO's are all about community, social interraction and cooperation.

Dumbed down is when people publish dumb things on a forum  about brilliant games.

The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team.

That's a perfect example of "dumbed down".

MMORPG.COM is full of it.

And apparently there ain't much talent around either when you see the mmo duds of the last 3 years.

Who knows some of the above even work for some companies.

it would explain a lot.

Originally posted by camp11111

 

Dumbed down is when people publish dumb things on a forum  about brilliant games.

The combined design talent of all mmorpg.com posters is about 0.05% of Blizzards design team.

That's a perfect example of "dumbed down".

MMORPG.COM is full of it.

And apparently there ain't much talent around either when you see the mmo duds of the last 3 years.

Who knows some of the above even work for some companies.

it would explain a lot.

 

 

 

As opposed to vague mumblings of discontent over .. what exactly?  do you disagree with the issue of games being dumbed down, or with specific games that perhaps you think arent?  everyone is entitled to an opinion, but far better don't you think, to say why its your opinion?