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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Just what the hell does "dumbed down" even mean anyway?

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  Gruug

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 1170

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

3/20/10 10:24:48 AM#41
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version. Second, the  method of control is smoother on the PC version. And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version.  So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most  out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.

Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet  either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.

Let's party like it is 1863!

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6906

3/20/10 10:30:30 AM#42


Originally posted by Garvon3

Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help. 
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game. 



Originally posted by Amathe

It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.


I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

3/20/10 10:34:04 AM#43
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Garvon3

Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help. 
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game. 

 

 


 

 


Originally posted by Amathe

It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.

 

 


 

I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.

Sorry, those of us with an IQ over 5 never had a problem finding NPCs. If it ever did take a little bit, I'd walk up to a guard, and ask him where the NPC was, and he'd emote point me in the right direction. 

  Vypre

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/10
Posts: 180

3/20/10 10:36:08 AM#44
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

Call BS on the term all you want.  Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

 

That's what the term means.  In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.

 

It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game.  A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.

 

So, no.  It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play.  I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements.   That's my example.

Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.

  Amathe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 1666

3/20/10 10:38:27 AM#45
Originally posted by Gdemami

  I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
 


 

Before game communities were flooded with people who seem to need BIG YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINTS, we didn't "run around in despair." We read the quest text. We thought. We even made maps. Thinking and solving problems was part of the fun, because thoughtful people enjoy thinking. It's not something they find tedious or that induces despair.

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  brostyn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/04
Posts: 3120

Cynical? Me? Never.

3/20/10 10:41:27 AM#46
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Garvon3

Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help. 
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game. 

 

 


 

 


Originally posted by Amathe

It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.

 

 


 

I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.

Some people enjoy the challenge. Heck, why stop at labeling quest NPCs? Why not just log into the game max leveled, max skilled, and max geared? Why put all that other irrelevant subjective bull crap in the game? Its just a waste.

I suppose to me its a philosophy. If a game thinks it has to hold your hand every step of the way I will get bored very easily. I need stimulation and challenge. If a game doesn't even expect me to be able to find my quest turn-in I don't think that game is going to offer me much.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6906

3/20/10 10:44:04 AM#47


Originally posted by Garvon3

Sorry, those of us with an IQ over 5 never had a problem finding NPCs. If it ever did take a little bit, I'd walk up to a guard, and ask him where the NPC was, and he'd emote point me in the right direction.




Originally posted by Amathe
 
Before game communities were flooded with people who seem to need BIG YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINTS, we didn't "run around in despair." We read the quest text. We thought. We even made maps. Thinking and solving problems was part of the fun. Thoughtful people enjoy thinking. It's not something they find tedious or that induces despair.


Before the game community was flooded with people who think they are better than others just because of game they play and gameplay they prefer...

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/10 10:48:28 AM#48
Originally posted by Vypre
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

Call BS on the term all you want.  Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

 

That's what the term means.  In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.

 

It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game.  A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.

 

So, no.  It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play.  I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements.   That's my example.

What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.

Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?

I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly.  It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  FearGX

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/09
Posts: 320

3/20/10 10:51:55 AM#49
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time.

What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another,  but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics.

Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?"

You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port....

And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC?

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.

 

But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/10 11:09:31 AM#50
Originally posted by Fearlessbro

I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.

 

But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!

 

With final fantasy I wouldn't call that dumbing down a product. I call that changing the focus of a product. The game-play itself is still very much FF, the problem is they took away the world. That's doesn't make the game easier, it makes the game a different game.

I'm hard pressed to even call it an RPG simply because all it is now is a story and some combat.

That's not what is usually referred to as dumbing down a product, that's gutting one and making it something else.

Dumbing down or as I prefer to say streamlining a product means to adjust how systems work to cut down on micro management and tedious mechanics. Like I pointed out above with Mass Effect 2. Which is still very much the same game, it is just easier to manage everything. Does that mean it was smarter before, or required a higher degree of intelligence? No.

It means the developers found their design archaic, and thought they could make it better.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Vypre

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/10
Posts: 180

3/20/10 11:28:44 AM#51
Originally posted by Malickie
Originally posted by Vypre
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!!

I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.

Call BS on the term all you want.  Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

 

That's what the term means.  In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.

 

It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game.  A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.

 

So, no.  It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play.  I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements.   That's my example.

What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.

Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?

I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly.  It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.

The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.

Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/10 11:37:14 AM#52
Originally posted by Vypre

The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.

Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Bathnor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/09
Posts: 128

3/20/10 11:39:48 AM#53

Just because they have improved the grafics of the ES series in Morrowwind and Oblivion does not mean they are not dumbed down from the earlier games. A pretty game does not mean that it is not dumbed down.

I liked not having the giant question marks in an MMO, I like exploration and these kill exploration and immersion. It's why it's so hard to get "into character" in a lot of newer MMOS. Back in the day people would actually RP, even on non RP worlds.

  Vypre

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/10
Posts: 180

3/20/10 11:46:42 AM#54
Originally posted by Malickie
Originally posted by Vypre

The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.

Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.

Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link.  What to I know though.  WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.


Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/10 11:53:50 AM#55
Originally posted by Bathnor

Just because they have improved the grafics of the ES series in Morrowwind and Oblivion does not mean they are not dumbed down from the earlier games. A pretty game does not mean that it is not dumbed down.

I liked not having the giant question marks in an MMO, I like exploration and these kill exploration and immersion. It's why it's so hard to get "into character" in a lot of newer MMOS. Back in the day people would actually RP, even on non RP worlds.

I hate when Morrowind and Oblivion are used in comparison to Daggerfall, Arena and other older TES games.

Yes they are very different than the older games, because they were created for a completely different generation of gamers, and made in tune with their desired games. Compared to the other games these players were accustomed to they were both very deep and complex.

Games in large part are made for the 15-20 year old demographic. Certain genres do cater to older players, yet most blockbusters are aimed at the target gaming ages listed above.

It's no different than music or whatever other popular media aimed at teens, their tastes differ from the older generations, changes are made to satisfy those differences. I'm sure your parents felt your music was dumbed down from theirs, I'm sure you feel your children listen to dumbed down music as well if you have them.

I know damn well I feel the music on the radio today is "dumbed down". Even though in reality it isn't, it's just made for someone else.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/10 12:02:51 PM#56
Originally posted by Vypre
Originally posted by Malickie
Originally posted by Vypre

The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.

Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.

Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link.  What to I know though.  WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.


Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release? Minus COH of course, as I've always heard it did well in it's time. I was still playing galaxies back then, so I really don't know.

When I referred to WOW as "dumbed down" I was comparing it to EQ, SWG or UO which most do when they make such a claim. Also the changes made to these games after WOW was referred to as "dumbing them down, for the WOW audience". SO tell me, is WOW viewed as a "dumbed down" MMO or not?

I don't think it is "dumbed down", which is why I use quotations when using the word. I think it was a streamlined version of older systems, that the developers felt were archaic and unneeded. Obviously players felt the same, As they're all still mostly playing WOW.

 

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/20/10 1:54:35 PM#57
Originally posted by Gruug
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version.

And in what way does prettier graphics make a game more "intelligent?" I can make a chess set by printing an 8X8 grid on paper with an inkjet printer and using different bottle caps or army men as the pieces. I could also buy a high end chess set with a marble board and highly sculpted pieces cast in gold and silver. Is the high end board more "intelligent" than my ghetto fabulous home made set?

No. No it isn't. It's the same damn game. It plays the same. it demands the same level strategic skill. There is nothing "dumbed down" about it.

Second, the  method of control is smoother on the PC version.

Debatable. I'm of the school that it's the player and not the controller. Especially in a game like MW2 where you get an accuracy penalty for moving around too much while firing.

And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version. 

Have you played MAG yet? Planetside during it's launch? Let me clue you on something. The more players you get on a map, the less your kill/death ratio actually means. You are more likely to be killed out of sheer dumb luck than any skill on your assailant's part. This cuts the other direction as well. Anything beyone 32 players on a map and it's just a great big cluster fuck.

So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most  out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.

But if the game wasn't made completely with the PC in mind and nothing has been taken away, then you can't lay claim to anything being "dumbed down." It's only when something has been removed that was integral to the game mechanics that you can even make this claim.

Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet  either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.

 

This isn't acutally a PC vs. Consoles thread. This is an elitist bullshit vs. reality thread.

"Dumbed down" is one of the vague, deragutory terms that is thrown about when no real criticism can be made. It's also a term that perpetuates the misconception that unnecassary complexity and high barriers to entry make a game more intelligent. Often times, added complexity just conceals the fact that a game is really, really broken on a fundamental level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Amathe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 1666

3/20/10 2:25:07 PM#58
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

This isn't acutally a PC vs. Consoles thread. This is an elitist bullshit vs. reality thread.

"Dumbed down" is one of the vague, deragutory terms that is thrown about when no real criticism can be made. It's also a term that perpetuates the misconception that unnecassary complexity and high barriers to entry make a game more intelligent. Often times, added complexity just conceals the fact that a game is really, really broken on a fundamental level.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point at all.

If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges?  Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?

 

 

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  3/20/10 4:29:49 PM#59
Originally posted by Amathe
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

I'm not sure I understand your point at all.

If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges?  Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?

 

 

 

I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.

I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.

Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Avanah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 859

3/20/10 4:56:18 PM#60
Originally posted by huge_froglok
Originally posted by Rayx0r

dumbed down:

Usually used by people who are not challenged by something.  More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another.

Almost always, its a term used by noobs.  New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.).  This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from.  Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre.

Like it or not, games borrow from one another.  You become better at these game aspects.  Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.

 

Used by noobs? Lol...

Do you really believe that games that let you solo through the whole thing, that show you where to go at all times, that explain everything to you and are constantly in your face (maybe popup messages like some horrible MMORPGs).   Do you think that isn't dumbed down?

If you don't realize they are dumbed down, you just haven't played a non-dumbed down MMORPG (try pre-WoW, the era of non-dumbed down games).

 

Well, your argument would have made some sense, if games were always staying at the same level of skill, or becoming more challenging.  The mere fact that games are growing larger and larger just symbolizes the dumbing down factor.  To say that a current MMORPG is not dumbed down compared to one 10 years ago is to deny reality.

 

I sure wish there were more people like you and dev's would listen when they make MMO's.

I played WoW since Beta (Quit 3 weeks ago) and have no urge at all to return.  WoW is being dumbed down with every patch and forums whining you see...Simple.

To me it has been turned into an automated MMO pretty much and it is sad.

 

When WoW was released you had to do 95% of the thinking to get somewhere. Today, the game plays itself and it only requires maybe 5% of your input to make things happen...again..sad.

I will not be chasing any MMOs that resemble WoW or play like it. I am waiting for an MMO that will bring back the challenge and excitement. I want my heart to jump and my breath to gasp when I make a mistake or die. I want to have to watch my back every time I leave town.

I want to worry if I can make it to my house out in the wild or another town with a rare loot I just discovered, hoping I dont get killed and my corpse robbed of my belongings. Thats what I WANT!

Dev's....You need to start making MMOs where excitement and immersion matters and not just your wallets. You dont realize the huge playerbase you have that is awaiting such an endeavor. Where we can go back to the MMO roots and get pulled in.

Thanks :-)

TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"Those with the most Opinions tend to have the fewest Facts"

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