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SWG Veteran Refuge  » Are we really doing the industry a service?

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81 posts found
  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

2/24/10 8:40:06 PM#41

Sandbox games are not an easy task for a developer to create, where theme park mmos are much easier even for the most inexperienced of dev teams.

 

Until someone comes along and shows that the social side of mmos can attract a decent following, there is little reason to expect sandbox games to hit the market with any force.  It has little to do with wow and everything to do with 10 years of theme park mmos dominating while almost every sandbox game has suffered big time. 

 

A game with the Star Wars IP, the mmo industry leader in SOE (at the time) and one of the most experienced sandbox developers [koster] powering what should have been a sure fire success and it ended up the single biggest example of what not to do in an mmo?.  SWG did more damage to the concept of sandbox games than any theme park is going to do.  Who in their right mind is going to emulate this titanic of a disaster?   

IMHO Vanguard put the final nail in the sanbox coffin, even though it is only a hybrid of theme park and sand box. 

 

 

 

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

3/01/10 7:42:14 PM#42
Originally posted by Daffid011

Sandbox games are not an easy task for a developer to create, where theme park mmos are much easier even for the most inexperienced of dev teams.

 

Until someone comes along and shows that the social side of mmos can attract a decent following, there is little reason to expect sandbox games to hit the market with any force.  It has little to do with wow and everything to do with 10 years of theme park mmos dominating while almost every sandbox game has suffered big time. 

 

A game with the Star Wars IP, the mmo industry leader in SOE (at the time) and one of the most experienced sandbox developers [koster] powering what should have been a sure fire success and it ended up the single biggest example of what not to do in an mmo?.  SWG did more damage to the concept of sandbox games than any theme park is going to do.  Who in their right mind is going to emulate this titanic of a disaster?   

IMHO Vanguard put the final nail in the sanbox coffin, even though it is only a hybrid of theme park and sand box. 

 

 

 


 

I agree.

 

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  Kylrathin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/06
Posts: 432

Your Favorite Console Sucks

3/02/10 9:27:20 AM#43
Originally posted by Daffid011

Sandbox games are not an easy task for a developer to create, where theme park mmos are much easier even for the most inexperienced of dev teams.

 

Until someone comes along and shows that the social side of mmos can attract a decent following, there is little reason to expect sandbox games to hit the market with any force.  It has little to do with wow and everything to do with 10 years of theme park mmos dominating while almost every sandbox game has suffered big time. 

 

A game with the Star Wars IP, the mmo industry leader in SOE (at the time) and one of the most experienced sandbox developers [koster] powering what should have been a sure fire success and it ended up the single biggest example of what not to do in an mmo?.  SWG did more damage to the concept of sandbox games than any theme park is going to do.  Who in their right mind is going to emulate this titanic of a disaster?   

IMHO Vanguard put the final nail in the sanbox coffin, even though it is only a hybrid of theme park and sand box. 

 

 

 

Respectfully, that's a bit disingenuous.  Your point about it being the single biggest example of what not to do is well taken, but of course the real point to that was don't change the rules that heavily in the middle of the game, as you will alienate your existing player base and may never get that new one you thought you deserved.  Those with a simplistic view of things will look at it as "sandbox MMOs are all failure, look at SWG", and there's no question producers these days want the path of least resistance and will refuse to even glance at something if there's some sort of caveat associated with it.  But, to use your analogy, that would be akin to shipbuilders saying "Well, the Titanic sunk, so building large cruise ships is a horrible idea and we should keep them under 10,000 metric tons." 

I believe the fact that it was the Star Wars IP sunk the game faster than it would have otherwise, as most people I know in the game wanted to live in the Star Wars universe, and they wanted to be unique.  Not necessarily heroes, not necessarily the all-powerful, but just unique.  And some didn't even want to be unique - they wanted to be Stormtrooper #82263.  The beauty of it was, they could enter and exit that role as they saw fit, and were not locked into it by any means.  As bad as the NGE was, to me that was what provided the biggest dip in the number of players once NGE was implemented - removal of the ability to live in the Star Wars universe as who you wanted with the ability to change it at any time.

You know, the more I write about it, the more I can see game executives looking at it in the view you put it in.  The true pioneers are gone or discredited, their past brilliance just that - considered in the past and unrepeatable.  Anyone breaking into the business now is going to be hamstrung by short-sighted executives unwilling to take any risk at all with a new, unproven product.  Producers basically have to say "My view of the game is exactly the same as yours, sir, but with tint control!  It's a genre-buster!"  When Koster said WoW set MMOs back 10 years, I think he may have been underestimating the similarities between video game execs and TV and radio execs.  None of them ever mess with the formula, once it's been discovered.  Niche projects are given a smattering of funds and low expectations, and you either produce a diamond in the rough or your career is shot.

There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

3/02/10 1:06:59 PM#44

The NGE was the premier example of the absolute worst decision in mmo history, but it is just one bad example on top of a pile of bad examples that make up SWG list of "do not do this to your mmo" that make it the single best example of what not(s) to do in an mmo. 

 

These two comics remind me of just how many mistakes were made that crippled swg from the very beginning of the game.

 

In the end SWG is just a giant example of cascading errors that turned a license to print money and success into a flaming nightmare of failure that should be posted on every developers wall of things not to do when developing and releasing an mmo.  SWG problems go way beyond the NGE and existed since release. The nge was just so huge that it tends to overshadow all of the poor decisions made in this game that caused it to fail. 

Sadly it is also very representative of the problems that have plagued most sandbox games, which just makes for more reasons why most developers shy away from more social oriented game designs like sandboxes. The history of sandbox games in the genre is ugly and almost entirely filled with failures.  

 

 

Also, I very much disagree that the Star Wars license sunk SWG faster than anything else.  If anything, it allowed the game to limp along far longer than if it were a game with an original IP that no one had ever heard of.  People still play swg, because it is the only star wars mmo on the market.

 

 

  Esquire1980

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 531

 
OP  3/02/10 2:53:03 PM#45
Originally posted by Daffid011

The NGE was the premier example of the absolute worst decision in mmo history, but it is just one bad example on top of a pile of bad examples that make up SWG list of "do not do this to your mmo" that make it the single best example of what not(s) to do in an mmo. 

 

These two comics remind me of just how many mistakes were made that crippled swg from the very beginning of the game.

 

In the end SWG is just a giant example of cascading errors that turned a license to print money and success into a flaming nightmare of failure that should be posted on every developers wall of things not to do when developing and releasing an mmo.  SWG problems go way beyond the NGE and existed since release. The nge was just so huge that it tends to overshadow all of the poor decisions made in this game that caused it to fail. 

Sadly it is also very representative of the problems that have plagued most sandbox games, which just makes for more reasons why most developers shy away from more social oriented game designs like sandboxes. The history of sandbox games in the genre is ugly and almost entirely filled with failures.  

 

 

Also, I very much disagree that the Star Wars license sunk SWG faster than anything else.  If anything, it allowed the game to limp along far longer than if it were a game with an original IP that no one had ever heard of.  People still play swg, because it is the only star wars mmo on the market.

 

 


 

If your're correct, then no wonder we will not get another sandbox from a AAA studio.  And I'm really not all that sure you are correct in all your estimation.

SWG had over 300K subs at one time.  Post WoW, maybe not all that great but pre WoW, 2nd largest of the time.

SWG had many chances.  SWG rebounded from the CU, some say almost back to pre-CU levels.  After NGE, the game came back, somewhat, to 100K subs (Smedley released at C6CD).  So, what does SOE do, each time?  Throw away the sub base they had for a chance at a sub base that only existed in their minds.  CHANGES killed SWG.  There were 3 different playerbases that were CHANGED right out of existance.  SOE mismanagement never ceases to amaze me.

Altho, I think you're right.  It's not SOE mismanagement that is being blamed for these happenings.  It's sandbox.  With the advent of nothing but story driven MMOs, I just did the STO launch, we all end up with no game to play and SWG sinks even further.

I just can't figure out how to get the message across.  SOE continues it's never ending quest to destroy SWG.  Studios keep making WoW clones and launching not even up to the standards of the original.  I keep playing solitare.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

3/02/10 4:01:47 PM#46

True that swg had a lot of people at release and it was successful at the start, but most of that was fueled by the Star Wars brand and people still hoping things would get fixed.  The entire project was obviously to much for soe to handle even if they still cared about quality.  As great as the design of the game was at release it just didn't have enough quality to retain. 

However if you look at the overall life of the game, not just the big changes to the game, but everything.  You see a game that is plagued by issues most developers don't want to deal with and can easily avoid by emulating the more successful and dominating theme park design.  SOE had the capital, they had the most experience in the industry and one of the largest IPs in the world to work with and they could not get it right even after 3 tries.  It would be hard for any developer to ignore that, even if they do correctly identify the reasons why swg slagged.

 

If soe gave a rats ass about quality and took their time with the game and supported the people creating it, then I doubt a thread like this gets written.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

3/02/10 4:45:06 PM#47
Originally posted by Daffid011

The NGE was the premier example of the absolute worst decision in mmo history, but it is just one bad example on top of a pile of bad examples that make up SWG list of "do not do this to your mmo" that make it the single best example of what not(s) to do in an mmo. 

 

These two comics remind me of just how many mistakes were made that crippled swg from the very beginning of the game.

 

In the end SWG is just a giant example of cascading errors that turned a license to print money and success into a flaming nightmare of failure that should be posted on every developers wall of things not to do when developing and releasing an mmo.  SWG problems go way beyond the NGE and existed since release. The nge was just so huge that it tends to overshadow all of the poor decisions made in this game that caused it to fail. 

Sadly it is also very representative of the problems that have plagued most sandbox games, which just makes for more reasons why most developers shy away from more social oriented game designs like sandboxes. The history of sandbox games in the genre is ugly and almost entirely filled with failures.  

 

 

Also, I very much disagree that the Star Wars license sunk SWG faster than anything else.  If anything, it allowed the game to limp along far longer than if it were a game with an original IP that no one had ever heard of.  People still play swg, because it is the only star wars mmo on the market.

 

 


 

blasphemy!

 

the people who make this cartoon have no idea what a sandbox is and what it is meant to be.

 

 

i've played many themepark games as well and they all suffer from downtime at one point in the game.

 

in swg i never found myself with nothing to do.

 

if anything i was buffing at the starport; finding smugglers to slice my weapons, travelling to vendors in the land, stopping a tailor to get me a new set of clothing, loading my factories...

 

the difference is true sandbox games encourage and as such are prepared for gaming downtime and gives you the features to keep yourself busy.

 

themepark games dont have any downtime up until the endgame BUT once you get there you are either helping newbies or counting the days down to your next raid.

 

people quit swg because of the bugs, lies, missing content and performance issues - not because it was a sandbox game.

  Troneas

Old School

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 910

SWG Refugee
Fringe Deserter

3/02/10 4:49:56 PM#48

and now i will throw some raph koster around for the people of that cartoon:

 

"...so games have developed incentives to get you to go do stuff. The payback for this is direct jolts of fun. Users are perfectly capable of taking actions on their own and getting fun. But if your objective is to have users get that jolt often, then you force them to have fun. You throw them into situations where they have to take action. You make them get off their lazy butts and make tough choices. You push them constantly, via all sorts of signals, to feel like staying still will make them feel bad, insignificant, inadequate.

(If you think these words are strong, think of the sorts of unsubtle prompts that have been put into character’s idle animations over the years… yelling at you to do something, looking bored, etc).

The culmination of this, of course, is constant action. But here’s the thing… humans get tired. The body itself, the human mind, has natural thresholds. Laziness may be bad, but lack of rest is worse. And in this, I include mental rest. Every arc of human activity has periodicity to it, with ramping attention, peak action, flow, gradual decline, story sharing, evaluation, rest, and then repeat. To see more about that, you can read the original MUD-Dev debate on socialization requiring downtime, then come back here.

Back? OK… a simple empirical test: name an intense game with naturally long sessions. Sure, you see some crazy people who do play intense games for hours and hours on end. They usually need to depend on stimulants to do it. In general, the more sustained high action and attention a game demands, the more exhausting it is, and the shorter the game is. That is because the game itself has architected downtime by ending. A high-intensity game that lasts eight hours would have few players precisely because most people wouldn’t be able to handle it.

This human cycle is pretty much inevitable. We see entire gaming forums premised on the “ramping attention” phase (“come check out this new KRPG!”) phase and the “story sharing, evaluation, rest” stage of activity. It happens on long cycles (the still active SWG exile forums) and on session-level cycles (your various guilds). These days, a lot of people use Ventrillo for the warm-up and cooldown phases.

Arguing about whether a game should have downtime in it is arguing whether the game should have those phases within itself, in the environment, or have them elsewhere, in forums and other communities. There are benefits and tradeoffs to each. Either way, socialization does require downtime." - Raph Koster.
 

  Garick

Novice Member

Joined: 12/18/06
Posts: 71

3/02/10 6:13:30 PM#49

Actually what SWG did can be described as such.

 

They took their loyal playerbase, that had been years in the making. Suddenly kicked them in the balls and while they were down. Took an old man and had him teabag them in the face for a few hours. Then told them "Ok were done fucking with you, were gonna get some new ass and it'll be better than yours... bye"

 

In which the end result was some old SWG owners sitting alone with no new ass to enjoy and ending up the laughing stock of the gaming industry..

 

Fail SOE.. fail and perish as you deserve for being douche bags.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

3/03/10 9:03:15 AM#50
Originally posted by Troneas


 

blasphemy!

 

the people who make this cartoon have no idea what a sandbox is and what it is meant to be.

 

 

i've played many themepark games as well and they all suffer from downtime at one point in the game.

 

in swg i never found myself with nothing to do.

 

if anything i was buffing at the starport; finding smugglers to slice my weapons, travelling to vendors in the land, stopping a tailor to get me a new set of clothing, loading my factories...

 

the difference is true sandbox games encourage and as such are prepared for gaming downtime and gives you the features to keep yourself busy.

 

themepark games dont have any downtime up until the endgame BUT once you get there you are either helping newbies or counting the days down to your next raid.

 

people quit swg because of the bugs, lies, missing content and performance issues - not because it was a sandbox game.

 

I agree and disagree with what you say.

Yes people quit because of the lies and lack of direction for the game.  That is what finally pushed me out.  It was obvious the developers did not know how to fix the game and simply had no time or direction even if they did.  People only bought the potential of the game for so long before it became obvious the developers were making things worse.  The holocron fiasco was such an obvious ploy to buy time without any thought about how it would affect the game. 

The game that was released was both great and horrible at the same time.  The social aspects of the game were awesome and most of that stemmed from the dependence players had on each other that came from the character building system.

Beyond that however the game was painfully incomplete.  The tools needed to make a sandbox game go were missing.  There was almost no way for players to interact with the world outside of tossing down a house or a harvester.  Almost everything on importance in the world itself did not function.  Pile that on top of how many issues there were with the core gameplay mechanics and it is pretty easy to see why people said there was nothing to do, even tongue in check as it was. 

IMHO SWG is one of the worst mmo releases in the genre and was only carried by the IP and a few brilliant game systems that soe never let the developers finish.  That is just another reason why I think swg is the pinnacle example in a worst case scenario survival guide.  It it like having a road map of what not to do when making an mmo from start to finish.

 

However, had the game been given enough time to be completed I think the entire mmo landscape would look different today.   

 

  TUX426

Inquisitor

Joined: 8/04/09
Posts: 1971

Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.

3/03/10 10:14:17 AM#51
Originally posted by Esquire1980

I understand, completly.  But, then, we all lose.  SWG goes downhill further (and with SOE pulling the strings, that's pretty easy), and we don't have a game to play.  I haven't heard of 1 person on these boards talking about another game like we all talk about our versions of "old" SWG and how much we enjoyed it.

However, I really don't agree on the industry part of this.  I believe we have had an impact, how much, is debateable.  We are not the only ones that are not subbed simply due to the fact that SOE mismanaged SWG even to that point.  And while we are doing that, no sandbox games, outside of a few "indie" studios are coming out.  Just more and more WoWified clones, not even as good as the original, expecting to make a few bucks off the box sales and throwing the long term to the winds.

 

What do "we" lose? I lose nothing if/when SoE dies.

 

And please...stop giving forums undo credit lol. You, this forum, any other forum...NONE of them have the influence people wish they did. NONE!!! <--- I mean that!!! N O N E !!! It's a business.

 

The reason you don't see more "sandbox" games coming out is $$$. Economically, it's cheaper to invest in short term (3-6mo) MMO releases that are little more than single player games with "co-op"  than it is to develop and maintain a long term MMO that will require years of development. Maybe you'll get lucky and people will want to keep playing, but the current focus surely doesn't seem to be on long term retention - it's most certainly more focused on launch sales.

  Esquire1980

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 531

 
OP  3/03/10 1:07:55 PM#52
Originally posted by TUX426
Originally posted by Esquire1980

I understand, completly.  But, then, we all lose.  SWG goes downhill further (and with SOE pulling the strings, that's pretty easy), and we don't have a game to play.  I haven't heard of 1 person on these boards talking about another game like we all talk about our versions of "old" SWG and how much we enjoyed it.

However, I really don't agree on the industry part of this.  I believe we have had an impact, how much, is debateable.  We are not the only ones that are not subbed simply due to the fact that SOE mismanaged SWG even to that point.  And while we are doing that, no sandbox games, outside of a few "indie" studios are coming out.  Just more and more WoWified clones, not even as good as the original, expecting to make a few bucks off the box sales and throwing the long term to the winds.

 

What do "we" lose? I lose nothing if/when SoE dies.

 

And please...stop giving forums undo credit lol. You, this forum, any other forum...NONE of them have the influence people wish they did. NONE!!! <--- I mean that!!! N O N E !!! It's a business.

 

The reason you don't see more "sandbox" games coming out is $$$. Economically, it's cheaper to invest in short term (3-6mo) MMO releases that are little more than single player games with "co-op"  than it is to develop and maintain a long term MMO that will require years of development. Maybe you'll get lucky and people will want to keep playing, but the current focus surely doesn't seem to be on long term retention - it's most certainly more focused on launch sales.


 

I lose nothing when SOE dies also.  But, due to SOE and their mistakes, we all have lost SWG, that every one of us enjoyed to the point that we continue to post on forums about our "old game", and our sandbox MMORPGs.  Can't even fathom ST:O.  Didn't last 2 weeks after launch on such a rushed, repetitive, and just plain bad story-based themepark MMO.  So, I play solitare.  Funny, that feels like a lose to me.

It's not the forums that have made our message so prominate.  It's word of mouth.  The forums have pretty much all the same people discussing what has been discussed all before.  It is our vengence, want to warn others, etc. that have gotten the message out so completly that the industry has taken to mean that "sandbox" will create all these problems.  How many times, in your years at SWG, did you get some1 to sub?  How many times since the SOE mistake of messing with your senator-ship/forum presence have you signed up some1 else, now?  How many times have we all told some1, "Hey, don't try SWG cause SOE still runs it"?  And for good cause.  They have mismanaged SWG, the forums, the senate to the point that no1 in their right mind would ever trust them again.

It may be cheaper to put out trash, but with the ever growing list of failed releases/games, you would believe that some1 in the industry would get the idea pretty quick.  Maybe Bioware has with the backing off of the release of TOR.  I can only hope.  They asked for beta testors about a month after STO did.  However their release is over a year later than STOs.  Looks like, I hope, they may have seen the reaction to STO and decided to include more than just story based content.  But that could be another dream, too.

Jack Emmert, Cryptic, said in a best buy chat that he wanted to put in some sandbox to STO.  They might have had a boat load of more succesful launch if they would of took the time to include this AT launch.  However, they pretty much included nothing at launch other than a few repetive quests.  Looks like Emmert has "got it" some here but not enough to get it all out when your making that all important 1st impression.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6829

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

3/03/10 1:14:51 PM#53

To the OP,you keep talking instances,well you can thank the 11 million instance runners in WOW for creating a false market.This gives all the developers the impression that this is what sells.

AS to end game,a true mmo is not meant to be ENDED there for there should not be any such thing as a end game, a good mmorpg  should forever evolve.MOST every single game uses PVP to create the evolved world,meaning you form alliances/guilds to tackle and conquer places in the world.The developer has to create the reason and the content  for that to happen.

When someone uses the term end-game,right away i think of players hitting max level and doing nothing but hit instances day after day after day..boring and is not game play,just a cheap gimmick offering loot to keep players chasing a rotting carrot.

IF STO fails to create a living breathing world to continue playing,then it is not a MMORPG,nothing more than a single player game.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17372

3/03/10 1:21:40 PM#54
Originally posted by Wizardry

To the OP,you keep talking instances,well you can thank the 11 million instance runners in WOW for creating a false market.This gives all the developers the impression that this is what sells.

 

 

?

How is that a false market?

"11 Million" (or thereabouts) seems to me to be a pretty sizable market.

If each one of them gave me a dollar i would be quite satisfied.

Sounds to me like that is an actual market of impressive proportions consisting of people who are NOT giving me a dollar!

  Robsolf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4025

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

3/03/10 1:46:43 PM#55
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Wizardry

To the OP,you keep talking instances,well you can thank the 11 million instance runners in WOW for creating a false market.This gives all the developers the impression that this is what sells.

 

 

?

How is that a false market?

"11 Million" (or thereabouts) seems to me to be a pretty sizable market.

If each one of them gave me a dollar i would be quite satisfied.

Sounds to me like that is an actual market of impressive proportions consisting of people who are NOT giving me a dollar!

 

I think he's using Yogi Berra logic:

"Nobody goes to that restaurant, it's too crowded."

  Esquire1980

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 531

 
OP  3/03/10 3:52:55 PM#56
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Wizardry

To the OP,you keep talking instances,well you can thank the 11 million instance runners in WOW for creating a false market.This gives all the developers the impression that this is what sells.

 

 

?

How is that a false market?

"11 Million" (or thereabouts) seems to me to be a pretty sizable market.

If each one of them gave me a dollar i would be quite satisfied.

Sounds to me like that is an actual market of impressive proportions consisting of people who are NOT giving me a dollar!


 

No one has said that WoW is a false market.  Blizzard, and the copycats, have proved that is the market, at least what the industry believes the market to be. 

Last numbers I heard for WoW is somewhere around 18 mil now, world wide.  While the game may not be a good as others out there, Blizzard's business model and management are not to be outdone.  They manage their product well.  They know that their end game is raid/PVP and that's it.  So, they keep coming out with expansion after expansion, with their "horde" of developers.  New levels, new worlds, new areas (large), new quests, New equipment, "New" everything.  That's why it works.  While I'm not all that impressed with their game, I can be extreemly impressed with their management.

Where this model gets into trouble is when the little guys try it.  Let's take STO for an example.  Fast development in the story based MMO "blizzard" model.  Everyone burns thru the content in 2 weeks and the rest is boring.  Cryptic can't keep up with adding content so players can burn thru it again in a week what it took them months to get coded, completed, tested and out to their customers.  The model does not work unless your Blizzard and can have 100s of devs, oodles of money, etc etc etc, going full bore.

Look at AoC and Funcom.  Same exact thing.  Vanguard, TR, War,  also. All of the "AAA Studio" releases have been about the same.  The Bliz model works if your Blizzard.  No one else or no one under their size.  No one else has the resources to put into it to make it work.

Sandbox, on the other hand, may not be as large of a draw as Bliz's themepark.  However, sandbox players are well known for making their own content as SWG once was.  This limits dev time for retention instead of making dev time a must have to keep players for more than the 1st 30 days that comes with the box.

There is room in the market for both.  This forum and others like it are living proof.  If there was any where else for us to go, other than SWG and the indie studios, no1 would probably hear anything about CU, NGE or C6CD ever again.   There are players, with 15 a month that are looking for both.  Sandbox may very well be more expensive in the pre-launch dept, however.........,  a lot less expensive in the post launch catagory.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17372

3/03/10 7:58:09 PM#57
Originally posted by Esquire1980
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Wizardry

To the OP,you keep talking instances,well you can thank the 11 million instance runners in WOW for creating a false market.This gives all the developers the impression that this is what sells.

 

 

?

How is that a false market?

"11 Million" (or thereabouts) seems to me to be a pretty sizable market.

If each one of them gave me a dollar i would be quite satisfied.

Sounds to me like that is an actual market of impressive proportions consisting of people who are NOT giving me a dollar!


 

No one has said that WoW is a false market.  Blizzard, and the copycats, have proved that is the market, at least what the industry believes the market to be. 

 

Where this model gets into trouble is when the little guys try it.  

 

He pretty much says the people in WoW created a "false market".

I get what you are saying in regards to only wow can do what they can do and the smaller companies just can't do it. Heck, even the devs of Aion say the same thing.

However, that doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. It only means that there aren't many companies that can supply that market.

Get a company that is hugely funded with the right staff and they will create the instances and if they do it well they will tap into that particular market.

Not every player is lamenting open worlds/no instances. The average game player probably doesn't care.

There is a market for accessible, casual games.

the problem, which you highlighted is that companies are convinced they can do the same things with the resources they have.

And of course as you mentioned the smaller companies just can't do it.

So There is a rollercoaster to be experienced.

There just aren't many who can meet the "this high" mark.

 

and I still want my dollar. 

 

www.youtube.com/watch

  TUX426

Inquisitor

Joined: 8/04/09
Posts: 1971

Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.

3/04/10 9:34:18 AM#58
Originally posted by Esquire1980

I lose nothing when SOE dies also.  But, due to SOE and their mistakes, we all have lost SWG, that every one of us enjoyed to the point that we continue to post on forums about our "old game", and our sandbox MMORPGs.  Can't even fathom ST:O.  Didn't last 2 weeks after launch on such a rushed, repetitive, and just plain bad story-based themepark MMO.  So, I play solitare.  Funny, that feels like a lose to me.

It's not the forums that have made our message so prominate.  It's word of mouth.  The forums have pretty much all the same people discussing what has been discussed all before.  It is our vengence, want to warn others, etc. that have gotten the message out so completly that the industry has taken to mean that "sandbox" will create all these problems.  How many times, in your years at SWG, did you get some1 to sub?  How many times since the SOE mistake of messing with your senator-ship/forum presence have you signed up some1 else, now?  How many times have we all told some1, "Hey, don't try SWG cause SOE still runs it"?  And for good cause.  They have mismanaged SWG, the forums, the senate to the point that no1 in their right mind would ever trust them again.

It may be cheaper to put out trash, but with the ever growing list of failed releases/games, you would believe that some1 in the industry would get the idea pretty quick.  Maybe Bioware has with the backing off of the release of TOR.  I can only hope.  They asked for beta testors about a month after STO did.  However their release is over a year later than STOs.  Looks like, I hope, they may have seen the reaction to STO and decided to include more than just story based content.  But that could be another dream, too.

Jack Emmert, Cryptic, said in a best buy chat that he wanted to put in some sandbox to STO.  They might have had a boat load of more succesful launch if they would of took the time to include this AT launch.  However, they pretty much included nothing at launch other than a few repetive quests.  Looks like Emmert has "got it" some here but not enough to get it all out when your making that all important 1st impression.

 

Wait...you said  "we all lose" and now you say you don't? 

You are WRONG WRONG WRONG about "word of mouth". Let me ask you...how many people do you ask for their opinion before buying/playing a game? SWG isn't some new release, it's a 'has been' title that's been out for 7 freaking years. The sad truth is, the GAME is just THAT BAD!!! People dislike it. It's really THAT SIMPLE!!! 

 

And what is your deal with talking about STO or Cryptic here? You seem to really be hung up on that rival game - is it fear? Cryptic may have a lot of work to do, but their Devs post more in one hour each day than SoE's do in a freaking week! Hell, their Devs are in IRC daily with trolls. Players for STO ask for ships they can walk through, Crytic is working on just that. SWG players ask for "factional differences", they get 2 new sets of flipping fairy wings. Come on lol...comparing Cryptic to SoE is just foolish.

  Swoogie

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 402

3/04/10 9:42:27 AM#59

I am against the NGE but I heavily prefer SWG pre-NGE because of the way my character would progress through tiers. It was the best advancing system I have ever encountered  but that isnt the reason why I quit SWG. I think all of these angry vets need to open thier eyes and give SWG a shot for what it is now. It a friggen game. People shouldnt get so emotionally attached that they are still distraught many years later. I dont play SWG becuase in order for me to enjoy a MMO, I need to be with lots of people, not just running around in a giant world with no one around. Its part of the reason I didnt stay with EQ when I tried it a few months ago.

 

In short, Vets please go and give SWG another try when they have these "free periods". I am sure you wont be dissapointed.

  TUX426

Inquisitor

Joined: 8/04/09
Posts: 1971

Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else.

3/04/10 9:53:06 AM#60
Originally posted by Swoogie

I am against the NGE but I heavily prefer SWG pre-NGE because of the way my character would progress through tiers. It was the best advancing system I have ever encountered  but that isnt the reason why I quit SWG. I think all of these angry vets need to open thier eyes and give SWG a shot for what it is now. It a friggen game. People shouldnt get so emotionally attached that they are still distraught many years later. I dont play SWG becuase in order for me to enjoy a MMO, I need to be with lots of people, not just running around in a giant world with no one around. Its part of the reason I didnt stay with EQ when I tried it a few months ago.

 

In short, Vets please go and give SWG another try when they have these "free periods". I am sure you wont be dissapointed.

 

You realize you're saying this immediately following a free month right? I'm willing to bet you that over 90% of us posting here DID log in.

Trust me...we KNOW what the game has become. This isn't about NGE vs. CU or preCU mate. It's that the game has gotten worse and worse and worse. Fairy wings? Halos? zombies? Dude...really. We KNOW what the game is all about.

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