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General Discussion  » Instancing is actually in genre for Star Trek

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87 posts found
  Mopar63

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 295

 
OP  2/13/10 6:28:28 PM#1

You know I see a lot of people bashing STO for the heavy use of instancing but I would like to address that from a Star Trek point of view.

Of all the Star Trek episodes what percentage would you say does the Enterprise, Defiant  or Voyager have a fleet with it? I would say it would be a safe bet the number would be less than 10%. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration necessitates that the ships and thier crews be able to operate for extended periods of time solo.

Take this even a step further, when a ship in the show needed help it was typically hours away and they seldom had a choice at what kind of ship would respond.

Now I am not saying it was a pruposeful design decision but I am saying that it actually goes to capturing the feel of Star Trek.

  sanedor

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 497

2/13/10 6:36:06 PM#2
Originally posted by Mopar63

You know I see a lot of people bashing STO for the heavy use of instancing but I would like to address that from a Star Trek point of view.

Of all the Star Trek episodes what percentage would you say does the Enterprise, Defiant  or Voyager have a fleet with it? I would say it would be a safe bet the number would be less than 10%. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration necessitates that the ships and thier crews be able to operate for extended periods of time solo.

Take this even a step further, when a ship in the show needed help it was typically hours away and they seldom had a choice at what kind of ship would respond.

Now I am not saying it was a pruposeful design decision but I am saying that it actually goes to capturing the feel of Star Trek.

 

the red part shows where it all fails in STO, nothing more to say really just a PEW PEW space shooter...

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

2/13/10 6:47:04 PM#3

Yeah, I remember the episode where the instancing server broke down and all the other Enterprises started popping up.

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

2/13/10 6:50:26 PM#4

The only issue I have ever had with instancing was when I recently tried a Klingon out. I'm standing in the room in the middle of the ring and I have to instance again to  the same spot just to fight. I thought that was a bit much.

Other than that it doesn't bother me because it happens when warping to a system or transporting. What do you really expect to see when doing such activities?

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  Mopar63

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 295

 
OP  2/13/10 7:04:57 PM#5
Originally posted by Drachasor

Yeah, I remember the episode where the instancing server broke down and all the other Enterprises started popping up.


 

Yeah I know what you mean, I recall in Tolken when Weathertop had to be taken 20 times by the same 4 people so new companion could have their shot.

This is seriously the worst arguement against a game i have ever heard.

  Mopar63

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 295

 
OP  2/13/10 7:08:45 PM#6
Originally posted by sanedor
Originally posted by Mopar63

. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration

 

the red part shows where it all fails in STO, nothing more to say really just a PEW PEW space shooter...


 

Your arguement falls apart because it is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately reflect the Star Trek universe without some concessions. I mean during Kirks time there was what 12 Constitution Class Cruisers? There are always concessions made for MMOs and yet for some reason that same curtiousy does not extend to STO?

I mean the arguements I have seen on this forum are NUTS. I can tear apart every MMO made to the same level as the haters use here.

If you do not like the game do not play it, why is this so hard for people?

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

2/13/10 8:23:16 PM#7

I seem to remember seeing 50 ships or more in good many episodes (several from DS9 come to mind off the top of my head) and more than 50 people on a space station. And more than 5 people on an away mission... on most of them.

Instances are easy to program, resource, and relative hard to screw up. That is why they are used as they are. Open world mechanics are hard.

 

 

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

2/13/10 8:25:58 PM#8
Originally posted by Mopar63
Originally posted by Drachasor

Yeah, I remember the episode where the instancing server broke down and all the other Enterprises started popping up.

Yeah I know what you mean, I recall in Tolken when Weathertop had to be taken 20 times by the same 4 people so new companion could have their shot.

This is seriously the worst arguement against a game i have ever heard.


 

The difference would be that I was referring to an actual episode.  *sigh*

Anyhow, instancing isn't inherently bad, but how it is done can be done.  STO is overly instanced.  You instance to go to a system, that's fine.  You instance to beam down on a planet.  That's fine.  You enter an instance when you go near a planet....that's immersion-breaking and needless.  There are a lot of other examples of over-instancing (such as entering a new one just to fight a "boss.")

As for why they have all these instances, they have to because there is so little content.  Few Star Systems, few zones...and just little of everything except character customization.  That means people would be running into each other left and right constantly.  If they had just bothered to make an MMO in the proper amount of time so that it would have a full amount of content, then there wouldn't need to be all of this instancing.  Instead we're stucked with a rushed game that has something like 80 hours of content total.  Pretty lame when other MMOs were released with over 400 hours.  That's to be expected when you rush a game out in 2 years instead of taking 4 or so.

Anyhow, your argument doesn't really work well since people are in groups a good bit due to the auto-grouping system.

  AmazingAvery

Age of Conan Advocate

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 7093

The only time you run out of chances is when you stop taking them.

2/13/10 9:32:30 PM#9

The question is without instancing would you queue for the turbo lift ? I think not. It does make sense.


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  Mopar63

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 295

 
OP  2/14/10 7:17:26 AM#10
Originally posted by Burntvet

I seem to remember seeing 50 ships or more in good many episodes (several from DS9 come to mind off the top of my head) and more than 50 people on a space station. And more than 5 people on an away mission... on most of them.

Instances are easy to program, resource, and relative hard to screw up. That is why they are used as they are. Open world mechanics are hard.

 

 


 

Fair enough was DS9 about a space station or a ship? In STO are we role playing being the commanding officer of a space station? People and ships tend to congrigate a bit more at stations. I have yet BTW to go to Sol and not see a bunch of player ships parked outside or watch a good number of players running around the station.

I am not disputing the programming mechanics, I agree that instances are an easier to setup system.  However the same could be said for the shard system when comparing any other MMO to EVE. It is easy to find flaws in STO, but then again it is easy to find flaws in EVERY MMO.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5254

2/14/10 7:28:16 AM#11
Originally posted by Mopar63
Originally posted by Burntvet

I seem to remember seeing 50 ships or more in good many episodes (several from DS9 come to mind off the top of my head) and more than 50 people on a space station. And more than 5 people on an away mission... on most of them.

Instances are easy to program, resource, and relative hard to screw up. That is why they are used as they are. Open world mechanics are hard.

 

 


 

Fair enough was DS9 about a space station or a ship? In STO are we role playing being the commanding officer of a space station? People and ships tend to congrigate a bit more at stations. I have yet BTW to go to Sol and not see a bunch of player ships parked outside or watch a good number of players running around the station.

I am not disputing the programming mechanics, I agree that instances are an easier to setup system.  However the same could be said for the shard system when comparing any other MMO to EVE. It is easy to find flaws in STO, but then again it is easy to find flaws in EVERY MMO.


 

Thats a good point, there are no perfect games, the only real question is, is it fun, and are the flaws ones that your willing to accept. if the answer to both is yes, then obviously its not an insurmountable problem

  Toquio3

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/09
Posts: 1105

"Excellent breeze... Great day for cards."

2/14/10 7:29:24 AM#12

What I find strange is that, while EVE's galaxy is so incredibly vast (over 8000 systems + unkown wormholes), STO's is incredibly small (someone said on these forums you can cover it in 15 minutes). How can games set in so similar genres perform so differently? Technologically speaking. Cant cryptic afford whatever machines CCP is using? I mean, I would imagine that if you're going to do alot of instancing, you can actually make your world bigger, not smaller.


If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

2/14/10 7:32:25 AM#13

Hmm, i just think back to some of the fun episodes in the original series.  Voyagers whole season is basically instanced as the ship is so far away that even communication takes weeks.

The episode with the Gorn, where the metrons make sure that its only Kirk and the gorn captain on the planet, no one else allowed!

Gamesters of Triskelion.  The gamesters teleport select members of the crew so far away, it takes a long long time for the enterprise to find them again.

The Menagerie.  Instanced by star fleet fiat.  This is the one where the aliens heads look like someones backside.

Trelaine episode.  Goofy guy with lots of power.

Any and all timetravel and/or Q episodes.  And of course all the exploring the outer ranges of space.

And i'm sure theres more.

Hmm, in retrospect, they really did deal with alot of aliens with great powers.

Of course, there were some fleet episodes too.  Another question would be, how common was ship combat?  Every episode?  Every 5th episode?

  Mopar63

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 295

 
OP  2/14/10 7:34:45 AM#14
Originally posted by Toquio3

What I find strange is that, while EVE's galaxy is so incredibly vast (over 8000 systems + unkown wormholes), STO's is incredibly small (someone said on these forums you can cover it in 15 minutes). How can games set in so similar genres perform so differently? Technologically speaking. Cant cryptic afford whatever machines CCP is using? I mean, I would imagine that if you're going to do alot of instancing, you can actually make your world bigger, not smaller.


 

Not sure this is about technology as much as lore. The Star Trek universe does not seem that truly vast when you watch the show. Oh it is big but that is do more to less ships than size.

You are talking about two totally different backstories here and thus two totally different ways space is percieved.

As for EVE's design, it has evolved over quite a few years. They did not start with what they have today and they are still trying to make it better.

BTW you cannot that I could see cover the entirity of STO space in 15 minutes. Okay maybe with a warp tunnel but not regular travel.

 

  AmonSul

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/10
Posts: 85

2/14/10 7:35:49 AM#15
Originally posted by Mopar63

You know I see a lot of people bashing STO for the heavy use of instancing but I would like to address that from a Star Trek point of view.

Of all the Star Trek episodes what percentage would you say does the Enterprise, Defiant  or Voyager have a fleet with it? I would say it would be a safe bet the number would be less than 10%. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration necessitates that the ships and thier crews be able to operate for extended periods of time solo.

Take this even a step further, when a ship in the show needed help it was typically hours away and they seldom had a choice at what kind of ship would respond.

Now I am not saying it was a pruposeful design decision but I am saying that it actually goes to capturing the feel of Star Trek.

What has lack of fleets got to do with instancing? Absolutely nothing. Because even with instancing you have fleets of ships, difference is that instead of 200 in a persistant zone you have 20 in an instanced zone. A zone that will vanish after the "mission" is done and have no impact on the rest of the world.

Also, how often did you see Enterprise take a route to an instance? Take me to instance 33 of Gamma Theta II?

How often did you see Enterprise do missions? Yeah it happened that they did specific missions but most often than not they were out EXPLORING. Meaning they had no specific place to go but rather just went out there and explored unchartered space.

That is impossible to do in STO because there is no persistant world to explore. All you can is to go to instace XX to finish mission YY, ad infinitum. Exploring, the main feature of Star Trek, is impossible to do in STOs instanced world.

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

2/14/10 7:47:34 AM#16
Originally posted by AmonSul
Originally posted by Mopar63

You know I see a lot of people bashing STO for the heavy use of instancing but I would like to address that from a Star Trek point of view.

Of all the Star Trek episodes what percentage would you say does the Enterprise, Defiant  or Voyager have a fleet with it? I would say it would be a safe bet the number would be less than 10%. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration necessitates that the ships and thier crews be able to operate for extended periods of time solo.

Take this even a step further, when a ship in the show needed help it was typically hours away and they seldom had a choice at what kind of ship would respond.

Now I am not saying it was a pruposeful design decision but I am saying that it actually goes to capturing the feel of Star Trek.

What has lack of fleets got to do with instancing? Absolutely nothing. Because even with instancing you have fleets of ships, difference is that instead of 200 in a persistant zone you have 20 in an instanced zone. A zone that will vanish after the "mission" is done and have no impact on the rest of the world.

Also, how often did you see Enterprise take a route to an instance? Take me to instance 33 of Gamma Theta II?

How often did you see Enterprise do missions? Yeah it happened that they did specific missions but most often than not they were out EXPLORING. Meaning they had no specific place to go but rather just went out there and explored unchartered space.

That is impossible to do in STO because there is no persistant world to explore. All you can is to go to instace XX to finish mission YY, ad infinitum. Exploring, the main feature of Star Trek, is impossible to do in STOs instanced world.

While instancing can support fleets, having many fleets is a little harder to explain with instancing.

There were several instances in TOS, i listed some above.  It has nothing to do with take a specific route there.

The enterprise did many missions, only rarely (like when they crossed that energy barrier) were they in some new unmapped area.

Instancing doesn't prevent exploration.  It just changes the mechanics of travel.  You could have a trillion galaxies that need exploring.  And they are all represented as instances.  They still need to be explored, and can be explored.  The only difference is you just can't point the ship and say 'engage' and wait the month long trip. (probably longer).

  AmonSul

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/10
Posts: 85

2/14/10 7:55:32 AM#17
Originally posted by Mopar63
Originally posted by Toquio3

What I find strange is that, while EVE's galaxy is so incredibly vast (over 8000 systems + unkown wormholes), STO's is incredibly small (someone said on these forums you can cover it in 15 minutes). How can games set in so similar genres perform so differently? Technologically speaking. Cant cryptic afford whatever machines CCP is using? I mean, I would imagine that if you're going to do alot of instancing, you can actually make your world bigger, not smaller.


 

Not sure this is about technology as much as lore. The Star Trek universe does not seem that truly vast when you watch the show. Oh it is big but that is do more to less ships than size.

You are talking about two totally different backstories here and thus two totally different ways space is percieved.

As for EVE's design, it has evolved over quite a few years. They did not start with what they have today and they are still trying to make it better.

BTW you cannot that I could see cover the entirity of STO space in 15 minutes. Okay maybe with a warp tunnel but not regular travel.

 

Oh so when Voyager is sent thousands of lighttyears away, to a far corner of the galaxy, which will take them 50+ years to return, with max warp, and 70 or so episodes is spent exploring just that part of the galaxy, then that is not vast?

Or when Enterprise is thrown another thousands of lightyears away, by Q, to make first contact with borg and then taking the Borg years to reach Alpha Quadrant then that is not vast?

Or the Romulan, Klingon, Gorn, Dominion space that spawns over houndreds of world is not vast?

If not then I have no idea what vast means to you. Star Trek is one of the richest and overreaching IPs ever made, eclipsed only by Tolkiens work. It is VAST!

STO is anything but. I can travel from one corner of travellable space to the other in less than 20 minutes.

  AmonSul

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/10
Posts: 85

2/14/10 8:03:14 AM#18
Originally posted by rscott6666
Originally posted by AmonSul
Originally posted by Mopar63

You know I see a lot of people bashing STO for the heavy use of instancing but I would like to address that from a Star Trek point of view.

Of all the Star Trek episodes what percentage would you say does the Enterprise, Defiant  or Voyager have a fleet with it? I would say it would be a safe bet the number would be less than 10%. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration necessitates that the ships and thier crews be able to operate for extended periods of time solo.

Take this even a step further, when a ship in the show needed help it was typically hours away and they seldom had a choice at what kind of ship would respond.

Now I am not saying it was a pruposeful design decision but I am saying that it actually goes to capturing the feel of Star Trek.

What has lack of fleets got to do with instancing? Absolutely nothing. Because even with instancing you have fleets of ships, difference is that instead of 200 in a persistant zone you have 20 in an instanced zone. A zone that will vanish after the "mission" is done and have no impact on the rest of the world.

Also, how often did you see Enterprise take a route to an instance? Take me to instance 33 of Gamma Theta II?

How often did you see Enterprise do missions? Yeah it happened that they did specific missions but most often than not they were out EXPLORING. Meaning they had no specific place to go but rather just went out there and explored unchartered space.

That is impossible to do in STO because there is no persistant world to explore. All you can is to go to instace XX to finish mission YY, ad infinitum. Exploring, the main feature of Star Trek, is impossible to do in STOs instanced world.

While instancing can support fleets, having many fleets is a little harder to explain with instancing.

There were several instances in TOS, i listed some above.  It has nothing to do with take a specific route there.

The enterprise did many missions, only rarely (like when they crossed that energy barrier) were they in some new unmapped area.

Instancing doesn't prevent exploration.  It just changes the mechanics of travel.  You could have a trillion galaxies that need exploring.  And they are all represented as instances.  They still need to be explored, and can be explored.  The only difference is you just can't point the ship and say 'engage' and wait the month long trip. (probably longer).

Not sure what series you were watching but most of the TOS and TNG episodes I watched was about Enterprise encountering a never seen before planet, or moon or star or race. And what was intriguing about that exploring, particulary in TOS, was that Kirk said go in that direction and engage. That is the basis of exploring, to go where no one has gone before.

If 100 persons before you have gone to where you are going, but in another identical instance, then that is not exploring. That is grinding for exp and running a themepark show.

What totally kills immersion in STO is that space, which by definition is vast, is tiny in STO. And instead have multiple identical copies and that is VERY rare in Star Trek. Sure there was cases where one could go to several dimensions in Star Trek but again that was rare, and dangerous, not something that happened in each and every episode.

But hey, if you think this is worthy of Star Trek lore then all the power to you. Just dont think you will have many trekkies with you as STO is nothing but an instanced space shooter with no real exploration, diplomacy, research or anything else that trekkies are used to in Star Trek. Heck, just watch ten random episodes and tell me how many minutes are actual combat.

Star Wars is mostly about combat, Star Trek is not and will never be. And what is ironic is that SWG (pre NGE) was much more Star Trek than this game.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19095

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

2/14/10 8:07:22 AM#19
Originally posted by Mopar63
Originally posted by sanedor
Originally posted by Mopar63

. The vastness of space and the need to cover so much area and exploration

 

the red part shows where it all fails in STO, nothing more to say really just a PEW PEW space shooter...


 

Your arguement falls apart because it is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately reflect the Star Trek universe without some concessions. I mean during Kirks time there was what 12 Constitution Class Cruisers? There are always concessions made for MMOs and yet for some reason that same curtiousy does not extend to STO?

I mean the arguements I have seen on this forum are NUTS. I can tear apart every MMO made to the same level as the haters use here.

If you do not like the game do not play it, why is this so hard for people?

LOL, you started this thread, now you're angry when people participate in it? (and you don't like what they say)

While EVE didn't start out as big as it is today, even at its start it was much more vast than STO and Cryptic could have used a similar model.  By spreading the players out, few EVE players ever feel crowded, and it would have suited the ST IP quite well to do something like it.

But Cryptic didn't, they took the short route, not because it was a better way to go, but because it was cheaper and easier to do so and that's what people are angry about. (and therefore, venting their anger on these forums)

You like the game, great, enjoy, but many of us don't and we'll continue to "share" our opinions.  You don't like that, go play STO and leave us to our fun.

BTW, since we're talking about things that make sense for the IP, where's the 235 other crew members on my ship?

Now that's an instance that would have made some sense.

 

Arrogant, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  rscott6666

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/03
Posts: 192

2/14/10 9:51:31 AM#20
Originally posted by AmonSul  

Not sure what series you were watching but most of the TOS and TNG episodes I watched was about Enterprise encountering a never seen before planet, or moon or star or race. And what was intriguing about that exploring, particulary in TOS, was that Kirk said go in that direction and engage. That is the basis of exploring, to go where no one has gone before.

I listed the episodes, perhaps you were watching another show entirely? Sometimes they went to the edge of space, which i already mentioned, but more often it was either along the romulan border/klingon border. Space that was mapped out, just not investigated in detail. You can explore a planet even if its location was discovered by someone else.

If you think removing instancing is going to fix ANY of the problems you mention, you are wrong. It will still feel like someones explored it, or that you have seen that same planet before, only in a different  location. There won't be any exploration type feeling. Just the boredom of travelling 3 hours to find a very similar planet to the one you just were at. Immersion will be killed on the 2nd or 3rd planet you visit.

They cannot create 100000 races and planets for you.  Procedural/randomly generated ones will be just as bad if not worse.

The only question is, do you want to have to wait 3 hours doing nothing before you get to do something.
 

 

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