From what I've read so far, I am intrigued with the game.

However, from some things I've read, the game is based around the concept of "climbing" up the levels of the Citadel to an ultimate goal.

Doesn't the simple urban planning and architecture of the Citadel limit just how far you're going to be expanding this game? Eventually, you're going to more-or-less get to the top/center of the Citadel, and then what?

Or am I way off here?

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

From what I've read so far, I am intrigued with the game.

 

However, from some things I've read, the game is based around the concept of "climbing" up the levels of the Citadel to an ultimate goal.

 

Doesn't the simple urban planning and architecture of the Citadel limit just how far you're going to be expanding this game? Eventually, you're going to more-or-less get to the top/center of the Citadel, and then what?

 

Or am I way off here?

Think of the climb up the Citadel Tiers as the build to the climax of a good fantasy series (maybe a MASSIVE one, but still, a series).   After all you can read a big fantasy series in 20 hours, and you could play that far in a week (or less) in Citadel of Sorcery.  Still, a year or two (real time) down the line you could reach the Citadel itself at the top of the Tiers.  Your question seems to be, what then?  Is it over?  Was is all fruitless?  Well, did you ask yourself that at the end of reading Lord of the Rings (or seeing the movies)?  Or did you say, wow, that was a great book/movie?  That's our goal in Citadel of Sorcery, to have a real and satisfying ending, a goal that you can reach rather than an endless repeating game that only adds more area, but nothing else really new.  We feel the average player will stay with our game longer because there is an end they can eventually reach and experience, a climax, a point to all of this struggle.

So... you reached the end... then what?  Do we dump you out of the world on your er... butt?  Nope.  You can continue to play with your current character if you really want to, even though the epic storyline has concluded.  However, there are other choices.  You can start a new character if you want and your journey would be quite different, trust me.  But that's not all... while you are working toward that grand climax that will take place when you reach the Citadel fortress at the top of the Tiers... we will be working on the sequel story. 

That sequel will take place in this same massive world, and you can take your character into that new epic story and continue your adventure, building toward an all new grand climax (just like any good fantasy novel, there could always be a sequel).  After all, Lord of the Rings was a sequel... to the Hobbit.  The Malloreon was a sequel to the Belgariad, and there are endless examples.  Just because one epic adventure is over for your character doesn't mean life is over, the sequel awaits.  How far will we take these sequels?  As far as the game is popular.

Originally posted by Jatar

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

From what I've read so far, I am intrigued with the game.

 

However, from some things I've read, the game is based around the concept of "climbing" up the levels of the Citadel to an ultimate goal.

 

Doesn't the simple urban planning and architecture of the Citadel limit just how far you're going to be expanding this game? Eventually, you're going to more-or-less get to the top/center of the Citadel, and then what?

 

Or am I way off here?

Think of the climb up the Citadel Tiers as the build to the climax of a good fantasy series (maybe a MASSIVE one, but still, a series).   After all you can read a big fantasy series in 20 hours, and you could play that far in a week (or less) in Citadel of Sorcery.  Still, a year or two (real time) down the line you could reach the Citadel itself at the top of the Tiers.  Your question seems to be, what then?  Is it over?  Was is all fruitless?  Well, did you ask yourself that at the end of reading Lord of the Rings (or seeing the movies)?  Or did you say, wow, that was a great book/movie?  That's our goal in Citadel of Sorcery, to have a real and satisfying ending, a goal that you can reach rather than an endless repeating game that only adds more area, but nothing else really new.  We feel the average player will stay with our game longer because there is an end they can eventually reach and experience, a climax, a point to all of this struggle.

So... you reached the end... then what?  Do we dump you out of the world on your er... butt?  Nope.  You can continue to play with your current character if you really want to, even though the epic storyline has concluded.  However, there are other choices.  You can start a new character if you want and your journey would be quite different, trust me.  But that's not all... while you are working toward that grand climax that will take place when you reach the Citadel fortress at the top of the Tiers... we will be working on the sequel story. 

That sequel will take place in this same massive world, and you can take your character into that new epic story and continue your adventure, building toward an all new grand climax (just like any good fantasy novel, there could always be a sequel).  After all, Lord of the Rings was a sequel... to the Hobbit.  The Malloreon was a sequel to the Belgariad, and there are endless examples.  Just because one epic adventure is over for your character doesn't mean life is over, the sequel awaits.  How far will we take these sequels?  As far as the game is popular.

You used an awful lot of words to say "yes, the game is a largely linear story and will have an actual end, though the story will take a great deal of time to unfold, and we will be working ona second story as well".

It's not necessarily a bad thing. However, I can understand lot of folks might be a bit dubious of an MMO like that if it lacks any serious repeatable "end-game" content, especially is there is a "box" price in addition to a monthly subscription. An argument could be made the CoS is not much more than single-player RPG that has a few grouping options.

I just think you might want to consider that if a player spent hundreds of hours building up their character, they'd be disappointed if the game was pretty much "done", and their other option was to start a new character until a sequel may or may not come.

I'm not suggesting that you "need" a WoW-style end-game. Just consider that MMOs generally reward players for playing (i.e., subscribing) longer.

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

Originally posted by Jatar

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

From what I've read so far, I am intrigued with the game.

 

However, from some things I've read, the game is based around the concept of "climbing" up the levels of the Citadel to an ultimate goal.

 

Doesn't the simple urban planning and architecture of the Citadel limit just how far you're going to be expanding this game? Eventually, you're going to more-or-less get to the top/center of the Citadel, and then what?

 

Or am I way off here?

Think of the climb up the Citadel Tiers as the build to the climax of a good fantasy series (maybe a MASSIVE one, but still, a series).   After all you can read a big fantasy series in 20 hours, and you could play that far in a week (or less) in Citadel of Sorcery.  Still, a year or two (real time) down the line you could reach the Citadel itself at the top of the Tiers.  Your question seems to be, what then?  Is it over?  Was is all fruitless?  Well, did you ask yourself that at the end of reading Lord of the Rings (or seeing the movies)?  Or did you say, wow, that was a great book/movie?  That's our goal in Citadel of Sorcery, to have a real and satisfying ending, a goal that you can reach rather than an endless repeating game that only adds more area, but nothing else really new.  We feel the average player will stay with our game longer because there is an end they can eventually reach and experience, a climax, a point to all of this struggle.

So... you reached the end... then what?  Do we dump you out of the world on your er... butt?  Nope.  You can continue to play with your current character if you really want to, even though the epic storyline has concluded.  However, there are other choices.  You can start a new character if you want and your journey would be quite different, trust me.  But that's not all... while you are working toward that grand climax that will take place when you reach the Citadel fortress at the top of the Tiers... we will be working on the sequel story. 

That sequel will take place in this same massive world, and you can take your character into that new epic story and continue your adventure, building toward an all new grand climax (just like any good fantasy novel, there could always be a sequel).  After all, Lord of the Rings was a sequel... to the Hobbit.  The Malloreon was a sequel to the Belgariad, and there are endless examples.  Just because one epic adventure is over for your character doesn't mean life is over, the sequel awaits.  How far will we take these sequels?  As far as the game is popular.

 

You used an awful lot of words to say "yes, the game is a largely linear story and will have an actual end, though the story will take a great deal of time to unfold, and we will be working ona second story as well".

It's not necessarily a bad thing. However, I can understand lot of folks might be a bit dubious of an MMO like that if it lacks any serious repeatable "end-game" content, especially is there is a "box" price in addition to a monthly subscription. An argument could be made the CoS is not much more than single-player RPG that has a few grouping options.

I just think you might want to consider that if a player spent hundreds of hours building up their character, they'd be disappointed if the game was pretty much "done", and their other option was to start a new character until a sequel may or may not come.

 

I'm not suggesting that you "need" a WoW-style end-game. Just consider that MMOs generally reward players for playing (i.e., subscribing) longer.

There are "raiding" elements of end game, he mentioned them in other threads.  There are large coordinated offensive "encounters" that you do with a lot of other people.

What he's saying is that the main storyline ends but another one takes its place.  You don't lose your character or the time you spent on it.  An example would be once you're done with the Citadel the main storyline takes you elsewhere. You still have your personal storyline which never ends.

And just because you don't advance the main storyline doesn't mean you cant play.  All of those people in LOTRO who have done all of the epic storyline in the game still play the game, it's just one of those side things.  I think maybe you're taking it a bit too literally.

You could call almost any MMORPG these days a single player game with grouping options.  Even EQ has beccome a solo grindfest until max level when all you do is raid raid raid.  WoW is totally soloable to max level, as are many other games.

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

 

You used an awful lot of words to say "yes, the game is a largely linear story and will have an actual end, though the story will take a great deal of time to unfold, and we will be working ona second story as well".

It's not necessarily a bad thing. However, I can understand lot of folks might be a bit dubious of an MMO like that if it lacks any serious repeatable "end-game" content, especially is there is a "box" price in addition to a monthly subscription. An argument could be made the CoS is not much more than single-player RPG that has a few grouping options.

I just think you might want to consider that if a player spent hundreds of hours building up their character, they'd be disappointed if the game was pretty much "done", and their other option was to start a new character until a sequel may or may not come.

 

I'm not suggesting that you "need" a WoW-style end-game. Just consider that MMOs generally reward players for playing (i.e., subscribing) longer.

No, I didn't use a lot of words to say "yes, the game is a largely linear story".  CoS is anything but linear.  Each player goes through the game differently with their own unique path.  The Epic Story is not your quest, nor is it your path through the game.  You have  your own story and path through CoS.  All I said was that there is a climax at the end of the Epic Story that you get to experience.  Then I told you that you can continue to play your character (like other MMOs) if you want.  But... there are three choices and continuing on in the same place (for my dollar) is the least interesting.  The other two options CoS are to restart the game and play as another character, which will be a completely new experience since the game is utterly non-linear.  Or, and this is my first choice, you can continue your character in the sequel and continue new adventures, eventually reaching another epic climax.

In comparison, WoW (since you mentioned it) and other MMOs out there give you an endlessly repeating game that just goes on without change... forever.  That sounds like more of a punishment than a reward for players subscribing for a long time.  You keep spending your money to have more of the same thing.  It's like watching the same episode of the same TV show each night over and over again, and what could be worse?  You have to keep paying for it!   That's a reward?   Not in my book. 

For those who want that... well, you can do that in CoS, but why would you?  You aren't limited to that sad choice.  So why choose to stay in the same place endlessly when you can have a completely new adventure as a new character, or even better, continue your current character in an all new adventure.  You have your choice of fun, in WoW type games, you must keep repeating the same things... over and over.  Ugh.

What's interesting about your post is that you say players will be upset because the game is basically 'done'.  Don't you realize that the day you start WoW it is already basically done?  It stays the same every day, it is 'done' already the moment you start.  All you have is exploring the terrain and when your run out... that's it.  If I leave WoW today, and come back a year from now and load up my character... it's the same day again!   It's done!

Give me my new grand adventure, thank you.

I think the OP has the viewpoint that an MMO has to offer repeatable, zero-sum end-game content to be considered a competitor with other products on the market.  The problem with calling end-game content in games like WoW 'repeatable' is that it's not just repeatable; it's repetitive.  The difference between the two is in the pudding.  Logging on to find out you have done everything in the game, you're at max level, you have completed all the dungeons, raids, quests, etc is EXACTLY what you get with most other MMOs.  So how does the concept of a story, which has a beginning, a middle, a climax and an ending (with the possibility of sequels later on that tap into the world's lore) seem self-defeating?

It is up to the player.

You can do as in WoW, or do a new different adventure.

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Originally posted by PhelimReagh
<Mod Edit>

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Originally posted by PhelimReagh  

I don't wish this game anything but success, but you have to be honest about what you're doing and face up to what appear to be some significant shortcomings the game is going to have in the eyes of most players in your chosen market.

OK, perhaps I'm explaining too much.  I'll make this very very simple.

As I explained above, the game never ends... you can play forever.  So... what short coming are you referring to now?

Edit: Though I should note, forever means as long as the servers run, nothing lasts truly forever.

Now, to put this back into context, and using the LOTR story again...

When they destroyed the Ring of Power, the epic quest to defeat Sauron was over.  It reached the grand climax... they won!   Did they keel over and die at that point?  Did the hands of the gods reach down and pluck them from the world?  Or, did they continue on, living out the rest of their lives... perhaps having other adventures?   The point being, just because a story line completes has NOTHING to do with players continuing for as long as they want to play, and perhaps, even having other adventures in this world if they choose. 

Originally posted by Jatar

Now, to put this back into context, and using the LOTR story again...

When they destroyed the Ring of Power, the epic quest to defeat Sauron was over.  It reached the grand climax... they won!   Did they keel over and die at that point?  Did the hands of the gods reach down and pluck them from the world?  Or, did they continue on, living out the rest of their lives... perhaps having other adventures?   The point being, just because a story line completes has NOTHING to do with players continuing for as long as they want to play, and perhaps, even having other adventures in this world if they choose. 

Not sure LOTRO is the best example, because unfortunately, after the last book, the story of the main characters did indeed come to an end.  Only downfall I see to your approach is that the power gamers might burn through and be done in a month, but hey, they do that in most games (not EVE though) and move on.

But this thread did bring up an interesting thought to mind.  You mentioned that every character will follow their own story/path to the end.  Will there be alternate decision trees (most likely) and if so, will there ever be choices you can make that are inherently evil, thus leading perhaps to a completely different ending for the player. (like dominating the COS?)

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Jatar

Now, to put this back into context, and using the LOTR story again...

When they destroyed the Ring of Power, the epic quest to defeat Sauron was over.  It reached the grand climax... they won!   Did they keel over and die at that point?  Did the hands of the gods reach down and pluck them from the world?  Or, did they continue on, living out the rest of their lives... perhaps having other adventures?   The point being, just because a story line completes has NOTHING to do with players continuing for as long as they want to play, and perhaps, even having other adventures in this world if they choose. 

Not sure LOTRO is the best example, because unfortunately, after the last book, the story of the main characters did indeed come to an end.  Only downfall I see to your approach is that the power gamers might burn through and be done in a month, but hey, they do that in most games (not EVE though) and move on.

But this thread did bring up an interesting thought to mind.  You mentioned that every character will follow their own story/path to the end.  Will there be alternate decision trees (most likely) and if so, will there ever be choices you can make that are inherently evil, thus leading perhaps to a completely different ending for the player. (like dominating the COS?)

 

Lord of the Rings is actually an excellent choice, but you are making the false assumption I'm talking about the author's books, when what I'm talking about is the character's lives in his books.  When they destroyed the ring of power the characters did not die or just stop.  They were not forced to commit suicide or have some god pluck them out of the world.  The book talks about the long reign of Aragorn.  It also talks about Frodo and Sam's ongoing life, including a family tree showing all the kids Sam had AFTER his epic adventures (see book three of LOTR). 

So my point is correct, the character's lives don't just end when a big epic adventure they were on is over, their life goes on.  And so the lives of characters in CoS may continue in the world even though this one epic story has a climax.  But there is nothing that stops those characters from having another epic adventure in that world. 

If you don't like LOTR as an example, I'll give you a real life one instead.  YOUR life is going on now.  When the current president's time in office (be it four or eight) years is over, a new president will be elected.  This can be seen as an epic event of the world in which you live.  Yet, when that next president comes into office YOUR life will still continue (hopefully).  An epic story is complete, a new one begins, your life continues. 

This is such a simple concept that I'm surprised people are talking about it so much.  I'm sure it again has to do with people thinking about other games that use the same terms for different things.  The only difference between reality and our game is that in reality you may not be involved personally with the current president in any fashion other than casting your vote.  But in CoS you will be personally involved in some fashion in the epic story by the time you reach the (first) climax.

Now, as to your alternate decision tree, we're not using a simple tree that all players use.  'Alternate' makes the assumption that there is a single other tree.  A set tree has a limited number of paths based on decisions, but we're not using that kind of tree.   Certainly in CoS the decisions you make will form the path your story takes, but this isn't pre-mapped to a given tree.   Not only don't we know what decisions you will make, we don't know what choices you will have to choose from during your player's life. 

Or to put this a completely different way, each person's path choices are unique, meaning, the path choices you get are different than what another player will experience.  Our system uses an algorithm that takes the experiences in your past, the choices you made, the interactions you experienced, the triumphs you achieved, the friends and enemies you created and uses all this information to create the next choice in your future.  Therefore, since each person's past is unique and different, their future choices are unique and different as well.

As for different endings to the epic story, yes... as in everything, what you did in the past will color what happens in the future.  However, these choices cannot be inherently evil.  Good and Evil are not black and white concepts in CoS.  I've mentioned before, every player in CoS will be a shade of gray (in color terms of good and evil). 

If you want to read a fantasy novel that works this way, read the Black Company.  And though our story has absolutely nothing to do with their story, the flavor of how their story deals with the concepts of good and evil is similar to ours.   Many people keep asking us if they can play an evil character, to which we have to reply, you can't play a good character, or an evil one. 

Life in our universe it is a matter of keeping a balance, though you will stray from one side to the other at times, but in no case can you go all the way to evil or good.  That leads to constant death. So, no, there is no alternate path to evil (or good).  There are the choices you make, and how your past influences your future. 

Your story is not a series of random episodic 'quests' that have no connection.  Instead, your story becomes a series of adventures that have some common strings running throughout, and there are consequences to your actions from previous chapters in future chapters.  Almost everything you do in Cos matters to your future. 

Hope some of this helps rather than confuses people even more, we'll see ;)

From what I have read so far, this game sounds cool.

I understand Jatars point completely and if what he says is true, the chance to play a character with an individual, unique life would be a breath of fresh air.

All games these days consist of doing the same quests as everyone else with the sole intention of pimping stats and equipment.  This is not role-playing, it is an obsessive compulsive disorder politely referred to as grinding.  It is now so stale as to have crumbled to dust.

If the game mechanics (why doesn't anyone use the Morrowind model where you can become as good with a dagger as you would with a 2 handed axe,) support individuality along with the quest lines the YAY I'm in. 

I think I might have a better choice game wise for explaining. For those of you who have played Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, or Fallout 3(after the release of broken steel) After the main story is finished. you defeated teh demon or saved your Friends from ultimate destruction you can continue playing that said character and discover new things..follow different quest or just explore a lost castle or tower. Even fight in the bad lands. I hope that gives a bit of a better explination but The creators always do it the best.

Originally posted by saohc

I think I might have a better choice game wise for explaining. For those of you who have played Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion, or Fallout 3(after the release of broken steel) After the main story is finished. you defeated teh demon or saved your Friends from ultimate destruction you can continue playing that said character and discover new things..follow different quest or just explore a lost castle or tower. Even fight in the bad lands. I hope that gives a bit of a better explination but The creators always do it the best.

Well said , another way of putting it is that you can just join in with other peoples developing storyline and just generally help out have fun or just develop you reputation as an alround good or bad guy. You have choices.

The concept of having fun in this game beyond the standard treadmill approach provided (End Game, Grind, Boredom), i quite refreshing and if COS pull it off I for one think you could end up with some great community. Rather than self inflicting Guilds who bully and cajole, everyone having their own storyline and ability to progress that how they see fit is a major bonus.

Roll on COS.

Just trying to help is all,I do hope that explains the concept of CoS better. Been following the game sense it showed on this website way back then and I just the idea they have for the game.It is very different to start with and just much more enjoyable story wise cause how it can so easily branch off.

The bottom line is players only have their past experences with games to draw their conclusions from,

at the end of the day you play the game to have fun the trouble here is the devs will hype and the players will just be left sitting reading and waiting until the game comes out or at least until beta

you can have the best ideas in the world but if you cant carry though with them or fail on game play you simply will not have players, we have seen this before

really this games proving ground will come at launch or open beta, until then we can only speculate on if its fun or not.

Very true statement. We will have to wait and see how the gameplay and the overall experince is once the game has a actual testing ground for outside people. Till then we can just sit..wait..and twiddle our thumbs. *starts to twiddle thumbs*

Originally posted by Feldron

The bottom line is players only have their past experences with games to draw their conclusions from,

at the end of the day you play the game to have fun the trouble here is the devs will hype and the players will just be left sitting reading and waiting until the game comes out or at least until beta

you can have the best ideas in the world but if you cant carry though with them or fail on game play you simply will not have players, we have seen this before

really this games proving ground will come at launch or open beta, until then we can only speculate on if its fun or not.

Thanks for pointing out the blatantly obvious. Any opinions on the concept ?

trouble is the concept is just listed on the website in pieces of info and really alot of people will see the pieces fitting together differently plus the game is still under heavy dev things change as needed

yes there is room for alot of troubles and down falls and yes room for sucess the biggest thing is how well they can put together it all together and will it end up being fun for you or not

Really the game devs are saying they are putting together is form their view full of new ideas. The game can be ruined but alot more things then it can be saved by and then have more then the normal to overcome because of what they are trying.

The bottom line is yes you saying i think this or that is a problem is very well founded because they will be problems in that they have to be in the game in a way that is fun to play with out the negitives you have seen with them in the past. Thing is they are trying to piece these pieces together in a new way so with seeing the completed or semi completed work your really just looking and say i see problems. 

I know but the bottom line is the problems we see are based on how they worked when used in other ways. The problems are really overcomable but using them in ways that make the game more enjoyable and fun to play.

So the real question is will the game sucessed with its goals or will it fall short or even fail all together?

The devs say to the effect the game will be fun have a ton of storyline and alot of other things to do. Basically they also set them selves up rather high, unfortunately that spot is on the edge of a cliff so to speak as they have not only alot to live up to they also have alot more work then normal to get there.