Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

That's the original WoW in a nutshell, but things have changed a bit since 2 expansions.  You don't necessarily have to raid these days, you can do single group instances for tokens/badges which you can turn in for great gear.  You can also do PvP be it battlegrounds or arena, and get great gear.

WoW in a nutshell is actually casual friendly leveling, with gameplay that caters to soloers, groupers, raiders, and PvP'ers.  It's strongest points have always been accessibility and choices.  Has there been a MMO that offers all that?  Not really.

Originally posted by Frostbite05 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

Not true about the gear. You can gear for ICC 25 in a week, if you have the time to grind heroics.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Originally posted by Frostbite05 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

Not true about the gear. You can gear for ICC 25 in a week, if you have the time to grind heroics.

This is why he said 'average'.  You are looking at about 50 heroic instances for the badge gear alone and that is a lot of heroics for a the average casual player to do in even one month.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to. Fast solo level to the cap, then raiding.

That's it. If you want to copy WoW, let people level VERY quickly, make grouping accelerate that leveling only slightly, then put raids at the end game.

What games have done a great job of copying WoW with a VERY fast solo friendly route to the level cap, then lots of raiding at the end?

While I agree, many games have the same formula these days, I don't think anyone of them has done a good job at copying WOW, it is far and away superior to all of the wanna be's.

AOC, WAR, LotrO and even Aion (to a lesser extent due to a bit more grind) are just a few, but there are many more.

Don't look for the trend to change any time soon.  Every time a game varies from this formula too much you get a lot of complaints, as evidenced in games such as Aion and even Darkfall where players bemoan the long skill grind to compete with the veterans.

People claim to want a challenge, but in reality that's really not the case, they want to have fun playing a game casually.

Originally posted by Kyleran 

People claim to want a challenge, but in reality that's really not the case, they want to have fun playing a game casually.

 

 

That's so true these days.  You still see people cry for challenge, hardcore gameplay.   Yet the same people are the ones needing ingame plugins to announce boss alerts, the same people checking out strategies online before fighting anything, the same people that want hardcore PvP but quit 1 month after because they really can't handle it.

People want hardcore and a "challenge" but there are games out there that provide them, but yet they aren't playing them.  I do think for the most part people just want to have fun, and have something to do regardless of their gameplay styles.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Originally posted by Frostbite05 

EQ2, RoM, AoC sorta. All of which are faster leveling than wow. Unless you do recruit a friend its still gonna take the average gamer a month to hit max level in wow and then half a month to get enough gear to do anything raid wise.

Not true about the gear. You can gear for ICC 25 in a week, if you have the time to grind heroics.

This is why he said 'average'.  You are looking at about 50 heroic instances for the badge gear alone and that is a lot of heroics for a the average casual player to do in even one month.

Who says people need to eat or sleep?  The average MMO vet figured out ways to play 23/7 leaving only a short time for naps or the bathroom.  Vets don't take into account the normal people don't play 10 hrs a day.  Playing an hour or 2 a night?  Preposterous!!!  You have to play for as long as you work, IF you have a job that is, so you can level to capp fast, then complain how the game sucks afterwards=)

Originally posted by Skarothlock

Originally posted by Tatum

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

 

I agree with  most of this post, with the exception of your last bit, the focus on "endgame."

With no, or limited "leveling" there really is no need to focus on "endgame".  Endgame is a product (or consequense) of the leveling system. 

 

Customizing your character through skill points and use (ala AC and FE, though use did not increase your skill in AC).  Whatever your "endgame" will be is what your "leveling" should be and hopefully grinding mobs and quests is not your "endgame".  What I mean by that is that we should not have to do one thing to gain access to another... unless of course you are combining pve with pvp but that is a different dynamic.

 

Skaroth

In that case you would have made a "forced grouping" game.

You get rid of leveling, which is the solo part, and the "end game" which would now just be "the game" is raiding, usually requiring more than one person.

Wow in a nutshell is.

Exstreamly hard and challanging things to do if thats what you like(pvp and pve wise)
Exstreamly relaxing and easy to learn game if your casual

Beautiful world with GREAT lore behind it

Originally posted by Tatum

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

Well "no grinding" is players' way of saying "I don't want to repetitively do the same stuff for hundreds of hours," which is not an argument for a removal of progression.

I think games can work either way (with or without progression) but there is definitely a solid demographic for progression-based games (read: all RPG gamers of the last 20 years)

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Skarothlock

Originally posted by Tatum

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

 

I agree with  most of this post, with the exception of your last bit, the focus on "endgame."

With no, or limited "leveling" there really is no need to focus on "endgame".  Endgame is a product (or consequense) of the leveling system. 

 

Customizing your character through skill points and use (ala AC and FE, though use did not increase your skill in AC).  Whatever your "endgame" will be is what your "leveling" should be and hopefully grinding mobs and quests is not your "endgame".  What I mean by that is that we should not have to do one thing to gain access to another... unless of course you are combining pve with pvp but that is a different dynamic.

 

Skaroth

 

In that case you would have made a "forced grouping" game.

You get rid of leveling, which is the solo part, and the "end game" which would now just be "the game" is raiding, usually requiring more than one person.

 

While I am not opposed to solo play, I don't mind some down time farming mats for crafting or sale or just exploration, I don't think the game should force you into it for multiple hours just so that you can get an opportunity to play "endgame" which of course just means the "game".

Skaroth

I'm just going to put my two cents out there.

As you can see by my xfire I've put a great deal of time into wow.

I hate the game, I really do. How ridiculous is it that they make ANY content from 1-79 so completely useless?

Nobody WANTS to level for any reason other than to get to 80. It's completely unfun and awful. And to be honest, in reality there isn't much to do at 80 either.

And you can't really do anything with your friends on wow unless you do Recruit a friend. that's going to run one person at LEAST 50$.

The only thing you can really do with a friend or two is some crappy world PvP or dailies. That's pretty meh.

The only reason I play it now is because I have for so long, I might as well keep going lol.

Originally posted by rebelhero1

I'm just going to put my two cents out there.

As you can see by my xfire I've put a great deal of time into wow.

I hate the game, I really do. How ridiculous is it that they make ANY content from 1-79 so completely useless?

Nobody WANTS to level for any reason other than to get to 80. It's completely unfun and awful. And to be honest, in reality there isn't much to do at 80 either.

And you can't really do anything with your friends on wow unless you do Recruit a friend. that's going to run one person at LEAST 50$.

The only thing you can really do with a friend or two is some crappy world PvP or dailies. That's pretty meh.

The only reason I play it now is because I have for so long, I might as well keep going lol.

I played WoW basically since release.  In vanilla leveling wasn't as pointless, you were exploring the world, learning the game amd lots of others were doing it as well so there was plenty of opportunity to group up and instance, defend your cities and towns or raid alliance/horde areas.

I was involved in world pvp at lvl 20 and all the way up... though I was weak I could contribute.

I quit about 8 months ago because I was bored with pvp and pve... I put 321 days (that is 24hr days) into that game... almost an entire year of my life, sans sleep, went into that game.  Quit cold turkey  

Don't play a game that is no fun anymore... go play outside, the real world is actually kinda nice

Skaroth

Originally posted by Skarothlock

Originally posted by rebelhero1

I'm just going to put my two cents out there.

As you can see by my xfire I've put a great deal of time into wow.

I hate the game, I really do. How ridiculous is it that they make ANY content from 1-79 so completely useless?

Nobody WANTS to level for any reason other than to get to 80. It's completely unfun and awful. And to be honest, in reality there isn't much to do at 80 either.

And you can't really do anything with your friends on wow unless you do Recruit a friend. that's going to run one person at LEAST 50$.

The only thing you can really do with a friend or two is some crappy world PvP or dailies. That's pretty meh.

The only reason I play it now is because I have for so long, I might as well keep going lol.

 

I played WoW basically since release.  In vanilla leveling wasn't as pointless, you were exploring the world, learning the game amd lots of others were doing it as well so there was plenty of opportunity to group up and instance, defend your cities and towns or raid alliance/horde areas.

I was involved in world pvp at lvl 20 and all the way up... though I was weak I could contribute.

I quit about 8 months ago because I was bored with pvp and pve... I put 321 days (that is 24hr days) into that game... almost an entire year of my life, sans sleep, went into that game.  Quit cold turkey  

Don't play a game that is no fun anymore... go play outside, the real world is actually kinda nice

Skaroth

Well tbh I'm just holding out until Cataclysm. If they fudge it up like Lich King then I'll just wait for The Old Republic. Even if it is more like a single player game it'll still be incredible, just because Bioware is like that lol

Yea, Cataclysm doesn't interest me in the least... it will still be WoW. 

WoW is an amazing game... no game has kept my attention for five years, but I am done.

Skaroth

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Originally posted by tehikk

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

Britney Spears, sold millions of CD's so she must me a diva, she must have the greatest voice of all time?

Has she sold the most records all time?  Not even close.  That goes to people like Elvis and bands like the The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zeppelin.  In the gaming genre, that's where WoW fits in.  You see a few popular games every year but only every once in a long while do you get a true phenomenon like WoW.

Originally posted by Chieftan

Originally posted by BoudahXL

Originally posted by tehikk

Originally posted by Angorim

Originally posted by uquipu

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

This is what I think the WoW models boils down to.

 

WoW is fun.  WoW is fun for a heck of a lot of people.  Do people want tedious camping or grinding?  No. 

The people have voted and not only with their feet, the people voted with their pocket books.

This thread should be in the WoW forum.

 

It's good to know that you speak for all of us.
 

I would think he speaks for the majority, seeing as how WoW does have the most subscriptions ever.

Britney Spears, sold millions of CD's so she must me a diva, she must have the greatest voice of all time?

Has she sold the most records all time?  Not even close.  That goes to people like Elvis and bands like the The Beatles, The Stones, Led Zeppelin.  In the gaming genre, that's where WoW fits in.  You see a few popular games every year but only every once in a long while do you get a true phenomenon like WoW.

Um... The Eagles maybe? Which is followed by Micheal Jackson (last I checked which was BEFORE MJ's death) whom of which I can gaurantee doesn't have 1/10th the talent of ANYONE in the Eagles.

WoW only has it's place because everyone knows about it so that's the one they get. That and they actually put time and money into the game, though it seems to be less and less as time goes on.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by Andr4599

Wow in a nutshell is.

Exstreamly hard and challanging things to do if thats what you like(pvp and pve wise)
Exstreamly relaxing and easy to learn game if your casual

Beautiful world with GREAT lore behind it

 

For the most part...I agree with that.

 

The above and OP ... lately a very important option was added to WOW in patch 3.3 (2009) which you overlooked.

24/24 and 7/7 option of solo/group play (from level 15 to level 80).

Certainly for the leveling part an extreme useful thing to add.

WOW is the only mmorpg where the leveling dungeons are always played 24/24 these days.

Just like the cross server Battlegrounds (2006).

Hop in and play -------- in whatever activity: group play is always on against a world of other scaled (easy to hard) activities to choose from.

And the carrot is now VERY well designed in extreme polish of itemisation througout all options (from crafting-Pve-Pvp).

If WOW 2010 was WOW 2004, it would have had 300K subs ATM.

I have nothing against Blizzard or WoW. However, patch 3.3 did absolutely nothing for me, personally, and I'm not alone in that.  I hate PuGs, I've always hated PuGs. So the fact that Blizz was "kind enough" to add a system that effectively "allows" people to PuG 24/7.....didn't make me any more interested in staying with WoW any longer.

After 5 years, raiding, chasing armor tier updates, and grinding rep....I'm so over it, I can't even EXPLAIN how over it I am. Once you have at least 2 level 80s in tier gear (I have four 80s, 2 in tier, and one with a ridiculous number of achievements completed).....there's really just no point in continuing to do the same things over and over again. For me, that's not a game....it's obsessive compulsive disorder run amok. And...it probably tends to attract people who are mentally ill in this way. (No, that's not a slam. I have family members with OCD and anxiety disorder. It's just an observation.)

When the game was new, fresh, and exciting, and having epic gear was.....well....epic....those days were fun. When there were no BGs and arenas, and the Horde and Alliance on our server hated each other just because of the lore, and we raided each others cities because it was challenging and fun....those days were fun. When you got a dishonorable kill for killing someone much lower level than you, and it took several honorable kills to "fix" it....those days were fun. (The city guards being DHKs...was not so fun.)  When there weren't any instance and raid guides on YouTube, and we were all just learning via paying armor repair bills and dying repeatedly....those days were fun.

I enjoyed WoW (alongside several other games) over the course of five years. If you consider the expansions, and the fact that we had 3 accounts in our household, since the whole family played....I think I've paid Blizzard a good hunk of change by now. I don't even WANT to add it up. And with all I've paid, they're still not going to add player housing, or make crafting intelligent, or make PvP open (unless you're on a PvP server). They aren't going to make death meaningful, or something you really want to avoid, they aren't going to make the game LESS newbie friendly, they're going to very likely continue down the same path they are on. And for that....it just came time to say, "Au revoir."

I guess I just don't feel any sense of obligation (or loyalty) to a game (or hobby), or to it's developers, if it isn't providing me, personally, with the recreational outlet that I enjoy any longer.

WoW is a fine game. There is a lot I like there. There is also a lot I don't like.  Most of life is like that. There's good....and there's bad.  But with my hobby....I can choose how much "good" and how much "bad" I'm willing to accept. 

Originally posted by girlgeek

 

I have nothing against Blizzard or WoW. However, patch 3.3 did absolutely nothing for me, personally, and I'm not alone in that.  I hate PuGs, I've always hated PuGs. So the fact that Blizz was "kind enough" to add a system that effectively "allows" people to PuG 24/7.....didn't make me any more interested in staying with WoW any longer.

 

After 5 years, raiding, chasing armor tier updates, and grinding rep....I'm so over it, I can't even EXPLAIN how over it I am. Once you have at least 2 level 80s in tier gear (I have four 80s, 2 in tier, and one with a ridiculous number of achievements completed).....there's really just no point in continuing to do the same things over and over again. For me, that's not a game....it's obsessive compulsive disorder run amok. And...it probably tends to attract people who are mentally ill in this way. (No, that's not a slam. I have family members with OCD and anxiety disorder. It's just an observation.)

 

When the game was new, fresh, and exciting, and having epic gear was.....well....epic....those days were fun. When there were no BGs and arenas, and the Horde and Alliance on our server hated each other just because of the lore, and we raided each others cities because it was challenging and fun....those days were fun. When you got a dishonorable kill for killing someone much lower level than you, and it took several honorable kills to "fix" it....those days were fun. (The city guards being DHKs...was not so fun.)  When there weren't any instance and raid guides on YouTube, and we were all just learning via paying armor repair bills and dying repeatedly....those days were fun.

 

I enjoyed WoW (alongside several other games) over the course of five years. If you consider the expansions, and the fact that we had 3 accounts in our household, since the whole family played....I think I've paid Blizzard a good hunk of change by now. I don't even WANT to add it up. And with all I've paid, they're still not going to add player housing, or make crafting intelligent, or make PvP open (unless you're on a PvP server). They aren't going to make death meaningful, or something you really want to avoid, they aren't going to make the game LESS newbie friendly, they're going to very likely continue down the same path they are on. And for that....it just came time to say, "Au revoir."

 

I guess I just don't feel any sense of obligation (or loyalty) to a game (or hobby), or to it's developers, if it isn't providing me, personally, with the recreational outlet that I enjoy any longer.

 

WoW is a fine game. There is a lot I like there. There is also a lot I don't like.  Most of life is like that. There's good....and there's bad.  But with my hobby....I can choose how much "good" and how much "bad" I'm willing to accept. 

 

Didn't think it was possible, but you actually made me miss my old WOW days. Thanks for that.
 

Originally posted by Skarothlock

Originally posted by Tatum

It's a funny thing.

Most players now want fast leveling, they don't want to go back to the old days of grinding.  However, if you suggest a system with NO progression or lateral progression or some thinig like that, they'll give you a list of reasons why that's a terrible idea...???

These games are really stuck in the middle right now.  People cling to the leveling system even though there's VERY little character customization, no challenge in leveling, and no real reason for leveling.  Just going through the motions really.

I'd say reduce (or eliminate) leveling, add more complex character customization, and focus heavily on end game.

 

I agree with  most of this post, with the exception of your last bit, the focus on "endgame."

With no, or limited "leveling" there really is no need to focus on "endgame".  Endgame is a product (or consequense) of the leveling system. 

 

Customizing your character through skill points and use (ala AC and FE, though use did not increase your skill in AC).  Whatever your "endgame" will be is what your "leveling" should be and hopefully grinding mobs and quests is not your "endgame".  What I mean by that is that we should not have to do one thing to gain access to another... unless of course you are combining pve with pvp but that is a different dynamic.

 

Skaroth

True.  I was using "end game" as a label for any thing not related to level grinding. 

I agree though.  Having a long, PvE level grind just to get to end game PvP makes no sense.  If it's a PvP focused game, then that should start (in some way) right from the beginning. 

Eventually, the majority of the player base will be at max level, bitching about the lack of end game content.  Why not design for this right from the start?  Reduce or remove the progression system and put more development towards PvP or raiding or a player driven economy.

I'm sure that this thread will end up locked.