Originally posted by rashhero

Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

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So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

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Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.

 

 

You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

I guess he means the suits who take almost all the profit of it, then things in ways to milk more money and not trying to make the game better, just trying to make the game give more money without need to spend more

Originally posted by rashhero

Originally posted by Gardavil2

In reply to original post and the poll...

I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".

You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

Without trying to speak for Gardavil2, what I get from that is there are a lot of developers who have lost focus on what made the successful mmos a success.  That they were designed to be games and come from inspiration of making something fun that would amaze players when they experience it.

That has been replaced with a business mideset of creating a product with the intention of shipping X number of units to generate X dollars of profit.  Time tables, budgets and demographic analysis replaced passion, fun and a focus on what players want.

TLDR version

Companies are to focused on making money and not making games, which is why they underperform.  Make a great game and players will reward it with lots of money.

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

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So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

---

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.
 
 

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You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

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You are speaking of MMO gaming organized along big business parameters. I say that is part of the problem. MMO gaming should never be big business.

That's right. There are far too many people drawing a paycheck from MMOs than there should be. Too many Advertisers. Too many Marketers. Too many Accountants.

MMOs should be managed by the Developers and Artists that create them.

Janitors can stay, and some of the Secretaries that aren't just eye candy.

Keep the whole structure simple and lean. If people need jobs that badly then the problem isn't in how the MMO genre runs, it's in the Economy as a whole and no extra jobs "created" in the MMO genre is going to fix that.... Hmm maybe that's the real problem.

Will this happen? Nope. Too many people looking to make money off the hobby. I understand that... that doesn't mean I think it's acceptable for it to be that way.

Disagree with me if you wish too. That is your prerogative.

Originally posted by alkarionlog

Originally posted by rashhero

Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

---

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

---

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.

 

 

You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

I guess he means the suits who take almost all the profit of it, then things in ways to milk more money and not trying to make the game better, just trying to make the game give more money without need to spend more

The ones who run a multi-million dollar business? He should try it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Without trying to speak for Gardavil2, what I get from that is there are a lot of developers who have lost focus on what made the successful mmos a success.  That they were designed to be games and come from inspiration of making something fun that would amaze players when they experience it.

That has been replaced with a business mideset of creating a product with the intention of shipping X number of units to generate X dollars of profit.  Time tables, budgets and demographic analysis replaced passion, fun and a focus on what players want.

 

TLDR version

Companies are to focused on making money and not making games, which is why they underperform.  Make a great game and players will reward it with lots of money.

I think what's happening in the MMO business is what's happening in the whole gaming business: the gaming business has become the victim of its own succes.

For a few years now, the gaming industry has been larger than the movie industry, and just what you see happen with the IT industry, that used to be the domain of people passionate about it and freehaven of creative talents, it has become more and more regular corporate business as usual, just as any other industry branch.

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Originally posted by Daffid011

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2

In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

---

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

---

Without trying to speak for Gardavil2, what I get from that is there are a lot of developers who have lost focus on what made the successful mmos a success.  That they were designed to be games and come from inspiration of making something fun that would amaze players when they experience it.
That has been replaced with a business mideset of creating a product with the intention of shipping X number of units to generate X dollars of profit.  Time tables, budgets and demographic analysis replaced passion, fun and a focus on what players want.
 
TLDR version
Companies are to focused on making money and not making games, which is why they underperform.  Make a great game and players will reward it with lots of money.

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Yes, you got it. I just see a big part of problem with how the MMO companies run day to day and how they are organized now as compared to how they were many years ago.

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by alkarionlog

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

---

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

---

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.
 
 

---

You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

---

I guess he means the suits who take almost all the profit of it, then things in ways to milk more money and not trying to make the game better, just trying to make the game give more money without need to spend more

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The ones who run a multi-million dollar business? He should try it.

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I said my piece on this topic. I am done. Have a good day everyone.

Being a Pre-NGE vet myself and having stuck it out for 6 months after the NGE followed by 2 returns for roughly 2 months at a time i can honestly say that my personal opinion is this :

The current player community isn't an issue as to the "why hasn't SWG bounced back", the current players enjoy the game and good on them.

The disgruntled vets are not an issue either no matter how much hate they spew for the game, We no longer have the game we bought and played for so long, it's totally different in a gameplay sense.

One of the reasons i think it hasn't bounced back is because of the very same reason they totally changed it in the first place, the devs wanted to make it like other MMOs, simple and basic, instead of gaining more subs like the idiots wanted they reduced their player subs by more than half, from what i heard in game while i was active it's just a simple case of not learning from their mistakes as they lost player subs after the first CU.

The second reason i think it's not bouncing back and not likely to either is because there is too much competition for the same base mechanics, (log on, chat, raid instances/PvP, chat, log off) please note that i didn't include crafting due to the fact that it's pointless these days when loot is king, again though, another thing that got changed to the same old hash.

It's not likely to happen but if they decided to or could roll the game back to Pre NGE then thats what would bring the game back to full kicking power that it used to be, even the vets such as myself would probably return INCLUDING those that swear at SOE games and refuse to give them money for other games and such, they bring back what it was, game given a second life.

Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by alkarionlog

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2

 

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Originally posted by rashhero

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Originally posted by Gardavil2
In reply to original post and the poll...
I would have voted "Sony Online Entertainment's continuing arrogance in how they handled the situation".
You see I do not see MMOs as primarily a business. I never have. I never thought they should be. MMOs should be first and foremost a hobby that makes enough money to keep the servers running. That's it and that's all. All the "MMOs are businesses" mindset has given us is crappy MMOs that look great on profit reports but play like crap...

---

So work should be a hobby and not something to support your family with?

---

Don't take what I said out of context. Yes Devs can make a living off their creations. The problem occurs when 50 other people want to make a living off a MMO and they aren't Devs.
 
 

---

You mean the people who manage them and own the companies and IP? The janitors who clean up after hours? Secretaries? The people they're renting office space from or the payments they're still making on building costs for their offices? etc..

---

I guess he means the suits who take almost all the profit of it, then things in ways to milk more money and not trying to make the game better, just trying to make the game give more money without need to spend more

---

The ones who run a multi-million dollar business? He should try it.

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No, because I would assassinated by the Stock Holders for putting the needs of the Customers first. I figured that out a very long time ago.

I said my piece on this topic. I am done. Have a good day everyone.

Money makes the world go round buddy. This is the way of business and yes, gaming is a business. You can't honestly spend that much time working on something, organizing something, financing something, without pushing for as much return as possible.

Besides, the bigger a business the more jobs it creates and thats one of our biggest problems right now. Jobs.

Originally posted by Antaran

Being a Pre-NGE vet myself and having stuck it out for 6 months after the NGE followed by 2 returns for roughly 2 months at a time i can honestly say that my personal opinion is this :

The current player community isn't an issue as to the "why hasn't SWG bounced back", the current players enjoy the game and good on them.

The disgruntled vets are not an issue either no matter how much hate they spew for the game, We no longer have the game we bought and played for so long, it's totally different in a gameplay sense.

One of the reasons i think it hasn't bounced back is because of the very same reason they totally changed it in the first place, the devs wanted to make it like other MMOs, simple and basic, instead of gaining more subs like the idiots wanted they reduced their player subs by more than half, from what i heard in game while i was active it's just a simple case of not learning from their mistakes as they lost player subs after the first CU.

The second reason i think it's not bouncing back and not likely to either is because there is too much competition for the same base mechanics, (log on, chat, raid instances/PvP, chat, log off) please note that i didn't include crafting due to the fact that it's pointless these days when loot is king, again though, another thing that got changed to the same old hash.

It's not likely to happen but if they decided to or could roll the game back to Pre NGE then thats what would bring the game back to full kicking power that it used to be, even the vets such as myself would probably return INCLUDING those that swear at SOE games and refuse to give them money for other games and such, they bring back what it was, game given a second life.

have to agree, much as i generally dislike SOE for ruining my favourite game... i'd still go back again if they put a classic server online.. like that baseball film, if they built it.. they will come..  but it will never happen.. smedders and co are so much in denial that backtracking on that particular issue would be tantamount to admitting they failed so badly with the nge in the first place.. i don't think their ego's could take it. ..

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Antaran

Being a Pre-NGE vet myself and having stuck it out for 6 months after the NGE followed by 2 returns for roughly 2 months at a time i can honestly say that my personal opinion is this :

The current player community isn't an issue as to the "why hasn't SWG bounced back", the current players enjoy the game and good on them.

The disgruntled vets are not an issue either no matter how much hate they spew for the game, We no longer have the game we bought and played for so long, it's totally different in a gameplay sense.

One of the reasons i think it hasn't bounced back is because of the very same reason they totally changed it in the first place, the devs wanted to make it like other MMOs, simple and basic, instead of gaining more subs like the idiots wanted they reduced their player subs by more than half, from what i heard in game while i was active it's just a simple case of not learning from their mistakes as they lost player subs after the first CU.

The second reason i think it's not bouncing back and not likely to either is because there is too much competition for the same base mechanics, (log on, chat, raid instances/PvP, chat, log off) please note that i didn't include crafting due to the fact that it's pointless these days when loot is king, again though, another thing that got changed to the same old hash.

It's not likely to happen but if they decided to or could roll the game back to Pre NGE then thats what would bring the game back to full kicking power that it used to be, even the vets such as myself would probably return INCLUDING those that swear at SOE games and refuse to give them money for other games and such, they bring back what it was, game given a second life.

have to agree, much as i generally dislike SOE for ruining my favourite game... i'd still go back again if they put a classic server online.. like that baseball film, if they built it.. they will come..  but it will never happen.. smedders and co are so much in denial that backtracking on that particular issue would be tantamount to admitting they failed so badly with the nge in the first place.. i don't think their ego's could take it. ..

 "if you build it, they will come" hmm Kevin Costner, Field of Dreams. classic film.

You know you are dealing with a Vet when they known what 'DEATH BY T3' means. Being able to snipershot at extreme range was one of the Benefits of being a Master Ranger. CU killed that.

Far too many games have pathing problems - SOE has always had these problems in all of their games. In swg by using a snipershot  you prevented the target from making a bee-line for you.

CU occured because the PVP crowd wanted MORE PVP. They whined that the Pike users couldn't use firearms since their builds did not allow dropping non master skills; They whined about the Combat Medic's and Commado's; They whined about becoming a Jedi; Entertainers wanted to PVP also(They got their wish with NGE).

The number one thing you should know about SOE is they will ALWAYS change their games at any time and screw the game up; They will ALWAYS blame the player/subscribers. I saw that in SWG and EQ2.

Originally posted by Kazara

Originally posted by denvel

really the disgruntled vets are what is keeping it down. the word is out every where that swg is crap because of the nge. few people try it because of that.

the game has really gotten better since nge though. i still play on and off, and really enjoy it. my only complaint now is that they still have the iconic classes. the game controls are better, the crafting is still unique, gameplay is still grindy.

all in all i don't want a roll back to pre-nge anymore. i just want the profession system back-- and customer service (any customer service would be an upgrade)

 

No matter what content or 'shinies' are bolted onto the NGE version of SWG, it still is the 'fail' NGE version at the core. Betweeen an unwanted CU/NGE versions of SWG and $OE, the game was doomed. SWG would have had market staying power if it stuck to the unique and innovative features it had at launch,

In today's market, an MMO has to be well developed and polished at launch to succceed.  Launch is the make or break moment - Ask Trion how well it is doing with Rift! It is amazing how many companies do not respect this reality given the past five years.

 

you are right-swg failed b/c of soe.  IMO SOE is a terrible company that makes aweful decisions.  however, it has gotten better than it was at nge launch.  the only problem i have with the game now is the class system. 

IMO if they brought back the profession system the game would be better than it was pre-nge.  it was far from perfect pre-nge, that is why changes were made.  but it is easier to forget the bad and just remember it as a golden age.

 

and as far as the tcg- stay away from that!  it is nothing but a money sink.  typical soe.

SWG has some great features and some of them are very unique compared to other MMO's.

Its just that one major feature is just very bad compared to other MMO's. Which is combat on ground (space is ok). Its bugged, with boring professions and a very shallow lvling experience. The worst part is that the major bugs are engine related and will never be fixed because of that(shooting through walls, 'cant see target' crap, mob vs player distance because of server/client issues etc).

For anyone who finds PVE combat very important and wants quality, SWG is not the game. For anyone who finds any of the other features (crafting, space, playercities)  enough, SWG is a great game. But apparently most players want good combat gameplay. Which is to be expected of course.

I enjoyed SWG when I played it, I know there were alot of people unhappy with some changes made to the game. And we are entitled to our own voice and choice. 

Originally posted by Schmidty797

I enjoyed SWG when I played it, I know there were alot of people unhappy with some changes made to the game. And we are entitled to our own voice and choice. 

And theirin lies the word. When SOE crapified SWG they took away most of that choice. People had the choice of playing the NGE or quiting. More than 90% quit.

Had they put a real choice for people by now, by way of a classic server, the people would have it. As it is, players don't. Instead, former players choose to stay away from the pile that is current SWG-NGE.

Had Smed and the tard circus that is SOE done that one thing, even to the tune of a couple classic severs with "limited support", much of the well deserved SOE hate would have likely moderated by now.

SOE hasn't and they can enjoy their well-earned and much deserved terrible reputation in regards to treating "the customer".

SWG has not bounced back due to one thing the stupidity of soe.

Lots of vets have asked for pre-cd or pre-nge, and we been told that soe deleted that code base.

Sure stupidity.

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